hornbm

OK I have read more than 3 times today that MMO does not work as premix solution for the rotary engine.

All of you need to stop this complete nonsence NOW. I have not seen even ONE example of MMO killing or damaging an engine from using it as a premix. not ONE. Please search the forum for a horror story, your going to have a hard time, because there ISNT one. Not a single one.

Now I am living proof that MMO works as a premix. I use my first gen as a daily driver. I have no omp installed at all. AT every fillup I add 1oz of mmo, per gallon of gasoline. Guess what 12,000 miles later, my motor is just as strong as when I finished breaking it in! On top of the benifits of 2 stroke oil, it cleans and lubricates the entire fuel system as wel as the MMO in your engine will leave it SPOTLESS.

I wrecked my car 2 thousand miles ago. I pulled the motor out and put it in my current car. When it was out, i turned it over by hand, and looked in the exhaust ports with a flash light. DAN ATKINS, (of atkins rotary) said the motor sounds EXTREMELY good for the miles on it. The puleses sounded to me just like when the motor was new, if not better. WHen I looked in the engine, the engine was SPOTLESS .

Heres an explanation of what MMO was designed for in the first place: Sounds exactly what a 2 stroke oil does PLUS more.

So this rumor of MMO not working as a premix is only a myth, and this myth is being debunked right now. End of story. Disagree with me? Post some proof, not just what you heard from someone.

The way untrue information gets accepted as fact on this forum makes me sick sometimes.

Bolox

tahst all good and well.. but where can i get this stuff from in Aus?

jutny

amen to that, i premix with it, and its wonderful.

not to mention that it smells fun too!

RotaryRyan

Right ON!! I just started premixing with mmo instead of 2cycle. Im gonna keep on too!

mcnannay

ive premixed both, at different times and at the same time, but was a bit scared away when i had read to not premix with mmo

although i believe it will lubricate well, i think 2 stroke will do it just as well, maybe better

i wouldn't say 12000 miles is evidence it works better than 2 stroke...but i would't mind switching back to mmo, i know it will keep the engine cleaner and thats a good thing

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Even I had doubts about MMO as a premix, remember?

hornbm

key word HAD

lol

SS124A

if you are referring to a post of mine in a different thread, then whatever.

I never said that MMO does not work..

but with out going to that post and copying info over to this one...

Actual 2-cycle oil is cheaper. and does the same thing. that was my only point.

moreover, i bet if you broke both TC-W3 oil and MMO down they would be pretty much the same, maybe MMO has a couple extra additives.

you are right, mcnanny, 12K miles is not evidence.

My last road-race car died @ 186K miles on track. it was premixed since around 130K miles with the 2 cycle oil.. the engine was healthy, and died due to massive amounts of fuel slosh, eventually leaning the engine out.

this isn't something to get all bent out of shape aboot. use your MMO.
If you read the back of the bottle it even says it can be mixed with fuel. just depends on your ratio... which i suspect is what the problem was with the original poster.. .. he had too much MMO:fuel thus the strong smell.

Damn dude, do you need a hug?

Supper

This seems to be one of those things where everyone is so seperated on this issue that there will allways be an argument. As it is, a person can only prove to themselves whether it works or not.

I might give it a try once I am finished with the 2.5 gallon jug of two stroke oil that is sitting around at the moment.

Glazedham42

iTrader: (4)

Ok,

Like Hornbm I would like to end this speculation once and for all. I think that MMO can in fact be a full substitute for a regular two cycle oil. However, I think at this point we should contact the manufacturer of the product. After all, they are going to know more about it than anyone else ever will. They know all the technical data, and everything their product is truly capable of. So, I did a little research to get things going.

Marvel Mystery Oil is produced by the Marvel Oil Company of Chicago, Illinois. I looked them up online, and while they don't have a website I was able to get some phone numbers. I also found the full MSDS report for Marvel mystery oil which can be viewed here:

http://msds.pdc.cornell.edu/msds/msd...122/m60896.htm

If any of you guys are good at chemistry or can decipher some of the more complex things in that report, we may have our answer. However, more interesting to me are the phone numbers listed in that data report.

The data sheets are preprared Mr. Richard P. Kelley, who I am guessing works for Marvel Oil Company of Chicago Illinois? If not I'm sure this guy would be able to give us some more information. His number is listed as the perparer of the data report, general information, as well as the emergency contact number. So if anyone can tell us for sure, or at least point us in another direction, I believe this guy can. So I called him...

Got the voicemail. Didn't leave a message. Wasn't really sure what I was going to ask him either. Haha. So maybe it is better that I didn't get an answer. I guess we just want to know if MMO is a full subsitute for regular two cycle oils right? Well, I've got to head out for a while, but if some of you guys want to call him and try to get an answer out of him or at least some more info, here is the number: (708)-563-3766

I nominate hornbm to make the call and find out the answer to this debate. However, if this isn't possible I'll understand. Just thought maybe he'd want to call since he started the thread. At any rate, I'd like to find out something for sure. I think Richard Kelley can help us.

Jamie

Tom

^ I found that info too. Cornel prepares it for the DOD. Unfortunately- there is little relevant info found there for 2 cycle oil (to compare)

What I did see is that MMO is comprised of chlorinated hydrocarbons, mineral spirits and napthennic hydrocarbons. It generally does have a higher boiling point (341.6F), has a specific gravity of .876 @60F, has a viscosity rating, and most importantly- is classified as a lubricating oil.

That kinda leads me to believe (as a layman) that it does indeed lubricate and it does indded clean (it's oil and mineral spirits). Nutin' fancy...

Glazedham42

iTrader: (4)

Ok Guys,

I did the detective work. A writeup is coming in about 15-20 minutes. I believe I have put the myth to rest....

Glazedham42

iTrader: (4)

Here We go.. Hang on....

After many debates on this subject I decided that no one on either side knew what they were talking about. Not once had I seen any piece of technical data to prove or disprove either point about the ability of MMO to lubricate an engines internal components. So I began doing some research. Here are the results of that research.

I started by finding out who produced Marvel Mystery Oil. Turns out that the Marvel Oil Company of Chicago Illinois makes this fantastic product, as printed on the label at the of my half empty bottle. I did a quick couple of searches online and found the MSDS writeups for MMO. I found a very valuable table of information and began running some of my own calculations on the product. The full MSDS report can be seen at the following URL:

http://msds.pdc.cornell.edu/msds/msd...122/m60896.htm

Section 9 - Physical & Chemical Properties
MARVEL MYSTERY OIL (SEE SUPPLEMENTAL DATA)

HCC: V4
NRC/State License Number: N/R
Net Property Weight for Ammo: N/R
Boiling Point: =172.C, 341.6F Boiling Point Text: 760 MM HG
Melting/Freezing Point: Melting/Freezing Text: NA
Decomposition Point: Decomposition Text: N/P
Vapor Pressure: 5 MM @ 25C Vapor Density: ND
Percent Volatile Organic Content:
Specific Gravity: 0.876 @60F
Volatile Organic Content Pounds per Gallon:
pH: ND
Volatile Organic Content Grams per Liter:
Viscosity: 10 CST @ 40 C
Evaporation Weight and Reference: N/P
Solubility in Water: INSOLUBLE
Appearance and Odor: CLEAR AMBER LIQUID
Percent Volatiles by Volume: 25
Corrosion Rate: N/P

Based on the table above we can see the viscosity ratings for Marvel Mystery Oil as listed in the MSDS report. However, in the report they are listed in very unfriendly units of centistokes (cSt) and the temperature is in Celsius. Since I am in America, I started by converting the centistokes to a more comparable unit, and changed the Celsius to Fahrenheit. When changing centistokes I found a very useful chart that can be seen below.

(HAD TO LEAVE THE CHART OUT, COULDN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO PUT IT IN. IT'S JUST VISCOSITY CONVERSIONS ANYWAY FROM CENTISTOKES TO SAYBOLT SECONDS)

From the chart we can see that our 10 cSt rating is equivalent to about 60 on the SUS system. I also changed the 40 degrees Celsius to 104 Fahrenheit. We now have one data point for our usage. At 104 degrees Fahrenheit MMO has a viscosity rating of about 60 SUS. But I wasn’t convinced to stop there. I knew that viscosities change at different temperatures and that at an engine temperature the viscosity of MMO could change drastically. This is caused by the viscosity index of the lubricant. So I got on the telephone and made a call.

I spoke with Richard Kelley from the Marvel Oil Company and asked him for some more technical data about the product. He was able to give me the missing piece of data that I wanted so badly, as well as some more input. I told him about the rotary engine and how it uses an oil injection system. I also explained the reasons behind premixing and told him what many rotary owners do with MMO. He claims that the company recommends a 25% replacement amount for use with 2 cycle oils. However, he said they recommend this purely for warranty reasons. He said in all his own equipment he uses a 100% MMO mixture. I asked him if he thought it would be okay to use MMO as a replacement for 2 cycle oils, and he said he didn’t see any reason why not. He also told me that MMO is equivalent to a 5 on the SAE scale. This comforted me greatly, but I still wanted to continue in the pursuit of my raw data.

At 100 celsius the rating of MMO is 2-3 cSt. We’ll say 2.5 cSt to be unbiased. Based on our chart we can now develop the corresponding data.

60 SUS @ 104 F
35 SUS @ 212 F

Data point number two is what really interests me as this is close to an operating engine temperature. However, I had much bigger plans for these two data points and put them to use in the chart below. I plotted the two points and then made a best fit line through both of the points. The line can be seen in red.

But what do we compare our fabulous MMO to? I decided to compare it to Royal Purple’s 2 cycle engine oil (Snow 2-C) for high performance 2 cycle engines such a snowmobiles. Racing Beat endorses Royal Purple oil heavily, so I figured they know a good product when they see one. Here are the specs for Royal Purple’s two cycle oil.

282 SUS @ 100 F
58 SUS @ 210 F

At this point I would have to say it doesn’t look to promising for our MMO following. I went ahead and added the best fit line for Royal Purple to the graph as well. It can be seen below.



I hate to say this after using MMO as a premix and liking it so much, but it doesn’t look so good in my opinion. Keep in mind that these are only my individual findings, but it doesn’t compare to a higher quality two cycle oil. When you look at the above graph you can see that MMO isn’t that far off from the oil you put in your kerosene lamp (#4 Fuel Oil). As much as I wanted good results with this test I’m going to have to say that I won’t be running MMO exclusively in my premix anymore. I think I’m going to be using it as an additive from now on. It just can’t maintain its viscosity at high temperatures like a quality 2 cycle can.

I am still extremely interested to see what you guys think about my findings. I am quite confident in them, but I may have overlooked something. I would like this data to be wrong, but I can't see how it would be. Just think about how thin MMO is compared to a 2 cycle oil. I don't see how it can possibly protect so good when it obviously isn't as viscous. Just my thoughts....

DriveFast7

iTrader: (1)

Way to go glazedham, i enjoyed the read and humor. Any idea how it compares to a traditional petroleum based Castrol 2 cycle oil?

Glazedham42

iTrader: (4)

I don't have time right now to add it to the graph, but most of the petroleum based two cycle oils I've found are almost identical to the synthetic. Maybe a really cheap two cycle will be a little lower, (Like walmart oil) but it is still nowhere near as low as MMO. I firmly believe after doing this that MMO is intended to be an additive, not a replacement for two cycle. The sad thing is I was hoping for the results to be the other way around...

Where are you Hornbm????

frigidmonkey

I use MMO all the time, but I just felt I needed to be the smart *** that I am....
you said post some proof, not just what we heard. but YOU said the myth is now disproven because of what someone TOLD you
just an observation, hehe

CarlRx7

wow. nice data glaze! maybe the reason that you dont here any stories about MMO hurting the engine, because most of us are not dumb enough to use a 100% premix. i bet that my 120,000 mile 12a looks crystal clean inside too with the stock OMP.

carl.

hornbm

I know MMO is a very thin oil, allmost like water. But the arguement I throw out is, how much viscosity is really needed to to a good job of lubing the combustion chamber?

A thicker oil isnt allways better. In fact wouldnt a thinner oil allow it to cover the combustion chamber faster than a thicker one would? The faster you can get that combustion chamber lubed the better. Thicker viscosity oil, is well, thicker and there for wouldl take more time to cover the surface area of the rotor housings.

Im not sure how much of a difference it makes onces the mixture enters the engine.

But the question remains, what viscosity is really needed to properly lubricate the engine?

hornbm

I bet it doesnt, they never do. Have you ever looked at any freshley torn down rotary engines that use the stock OMP? I tell you what they look like, carbon everywhere.they are by no means "crystal clean" The whole point of this thread stop saying what you think and put down what is fact

And we are DUMB to use a 100% MMO mixture?? As you can see from this thread several people use a 100% MMO mixuture. And still no horror stories. Even the guy working at marvel oil just said he uses a 100% MMO mixture. Are you saying hes dumb too?

Stevan

iTrader: (17)

hornbm, the man you quoted in your first post, Denny, states later in the same thread that you shound not replace the 2stroke oil with MMO, but use it as an additive.

Sorry, I feel like I just joined a pack of hyenas against you.

hornbm

What I quoted was information about MMO itself. I didnt use denny for any opinions, because thats not the point of this thread. That line was the best put together explanation of MMO I could find on this forum.

While Denny's opinion may differ from mine, there is nothing opinionated in what I quoted from him which is why I quoted it.

Glazedham42

iTrader: (4)

I am TOTALLY with you on this one Hornbm. I'm riding the fence on this whole debate, but that is the only thing that perplexed me during the whole data hunt that I went on this afternoon. Who is to say that MMO won't do a good enough job of lubricating the engine? We aren't even sure what the internal lubrication requirements for the rotary are! I look at it this way:

In stock form the 12A is designed to inject a "crankcase oil" generally about 30W or 40W. We decide that the oil is "dirty" and "causes carbon buildup" so we rip the OMP out and block it off.

We are arguing that two cycle oils are a must in lubricating the rotary, and MMO is too thin! Who is to say? A two cycle doesn't have near the lubricating ability of the 30W or 40W oils that the OMP is pumping in at stock configuration. So even if you are putting in a quality synthetic two cycle oil you are losing some of the viscosity that a "crankcase" oil would provide. We are stepping down the viscosity of the oil no matter what we are mixing with the gas, so does it really matter how much we step it down?

Obviously a good 2 cycle synthetic is going to be about 1 step down from "crankcase" oil in terms of viscosity. In turn, MMO is about one step down from the 2 cycles. So it really comes down to one thing. How much lubrication is necessary by the rotary?

We are all fairly certain that the OMP was put in the car to boost sales, because consumers would've been scared away by mixing their gas for the "newfangled engine." So I think the only people who can really answer this are the Mazda engineers who were responsible for designing the OMP. Until we find out how much lubrication is necessary for the engine, we are kind of at a stalemate. Only then can we make an educated statement about whether or not MMO is safe.

I'm not saying it isn't safe, I'm just saying that it isn't as viscous as other oils. And viscosity is important in lubricating. Please keep that in mind.

hornbm

It makes sence to me that a THINNER oil would be better, or one that rides right on the edge of the requirnments. THe thinner oil would lub the rotor housings faster, it has to. A thinner oil will dribble or drip faster than a thick one.

I suggest, that MMO probably does meet the viscosity requirnments of the rotary engine, soley because we havent seen a failure cause by it yet. Weither its on this forum or not.

People have been premixing way longer than this forum has been around. Not even in the e-mail lists have I heard of MMO killing an engine.

If mmo didnt meet the viscosity requirnments of the rotary engine, we would have heard of a failure by now, plain and simple.

Sorry for not replying sooner, on the other stuff, I was at work today LOL.

I guess time will tell, when I blow my engine i'll let you guys know, but dont count on it happening soon.

But alas, after all this, it seems we are at a standstill, till someone blows their motor from MMO. I will say it right now, I dont believe it will happen.

But we can establish that MMO DOES work as a premix solution for the rotary engine. Weither the additional viscosity of 2 stroke helps or hurts anything comapaired to MMO is up in the air. Either way, I believe we can say that either way is an improvement over the stock oil injection system.

vipernicus42

iTrader: (4)

I hate to be adding to the "opinions" and "speculations" in a thread meant for facts, but I wanted to add what little deductive reasoning my mind could come up with.

Fact: Two Stroke is thinner than 10W30 and MMO is thinner than two stroke

And there has been some mention that a thinner oil would spread faster and be better. But I'd like to look at it from the other direction. If you put a single drop of water on the table and smear it with your hand, it spreads really thin and evaporates before it can cover a huge surface. Try the same trick with a drop of olive oil, and you'll cover a larger surface and not so much will evaporate as fast. The reason I make this analogy is because you have to remember that at 5000rpm, a single apex seal is making 15,000 sweeps of the chamber per minute under lots of heat (If I understand the RPM reading correctly). In such harsh conditions I would think that a slightly thicker oil would hold up better to keeping the inside of the chamber lubricated. Now maybe motor oil is a little too thick, but again it was a matter of convenience... But I *personally* wouldn't feel safe going as low as MMO, especially when we consider what Two Stroke's purpose is: engine lubrication in a 2-stroke engine. In a 2-stroke boinger the temps and pressures are much more similar to the inside of our combustion chamber than the fins of a supercharger.

So what I'd like to suggest is that two-stroke, having been deisnged to lubricate in similar harsh conditions, would be closer to that "perfect formula" that we are looking for than MMO is. Now MMO's cleaning properties (from being based partly on something like mineral spirits) do sound beneficial to the engine. For that reason I think that it could be beneficial as an additive.

One last little thing: We also have to remember that most of us premix in a much higher density than the OMP mixes. 1 ounce of 10w30 from our oil pan per gallon of gas would mean VERY frequent oil changes! This I suspect is why the MMO users have not had engine breakdowns. The way I see it, in that quantity, there may just be enough that it doesn't matter... But for anyone wanting to use the OMP adapter from rotaryaviation, I would recommend Two Stroke over MMO, since you'd be cutting your mixture density drastically!

Jon

hornbm

yeah if you used the 2 stroke OMP adapter youd loose alot of the benifits of premixing to begin with. With premixing the oil you get a better mixture with the air and fuel.

Take any 13b rotor housing from 84 ON. If you look where the oil injector is, your going to see less wear around the injector, due to the oil not being evenly distruibited throughout the combustion chamber.

Plus MMO cleans out your ENTIRE fuel system. Not if you use that adapter.


But anyway back on topic. vipernicus42, you make a very valid point. The quantity of MMO we are mixing in is probably MORE than enough to overcome the lack of viscosity. When you take this into account, the addtional viscosity of 2 stroke may not be helping anything at all, if the ammount of MMO is casuing the lubrication process to carry out completely.

This thread is an excellent debate. We have established, that MMO does work for premixing. That was my main concern. But we have expanded upon that to look at exactly how good of a job it does. The only way we are really going to know for sure is when we see some engine tear down pictures. However its going to be difficult to see some tear down pictures in the near future that were premixing 2 stroke or MMO right from the beginning of the engines life.

So what we need here is more information. Im going to call a few rotoary shops in the area and ask what theyve seen in the motors they have torn down, mabey even get pictures.

But what we can establish without any doubt is that MMO WORKS as a premix