Ack. Starting issue after some maintenance work.
01-04-09, 04:06 PM
#1
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Ack. Starting issue after some maintenance work.
Long story short - I've been slowly working on the car for the past month or so. Taken off and cleaned the following: intake manifold, exhaust manifold, throttle body, auxiliary port valves, and fuel and oil injectors. Also replaced all the vacuum lines, fuel filter, fuel hoses, and all the intake/exhaust manifold gaskets.
Finished putting everything back together today, went to start the car, and no go. It cranks and tries to start, but just won't fire. Sounds like the fuel pump is working alright (don't see why it wouldn't, since I haven't touched it). There's gas smell. I'm guessing flooded. Pulled the plugs, cranked it a few times. 3 wooshes, and spits out a fine mist (of fuel, I suppose) with each whoosh, so I think it's getting fuel. The plugs are soaked. Especially the trailing. Dried them off, tested them, get some spark, but looks kinda faint, don't know if it's strong enough to fire the motor.
Cranked a few more times to push the fuel out, put the plugs back in, tried to start, still cranks but no fire. Been cranking for about a minute or so, and now the battery is starting to die.
As I said, the car's been sitting for about a month. I've disconnected the battery at some point, but I'm not sure when.
Now, could it be that the battery doesn't have enough juice and the spark is too weak to fire?
Finished putting everything back together today, went to start the car, and no go. It cranks and tries to start, but just won't fire. Sounds like the fuel pump is working alright (don't see why it wouldn't, since I haven't touched it). There's gas smell. I'm guessing flooded. Pulled the plugs, cranked it a few times. 3 wooshes, and spits out a fine mist (of fuel, I suppose) with each whoosh, so I think it's getting fuel. The plugs are soaked. Especially the trailing. Dried them off, tested them, get some spark, but looks kinda faint, don't know if it's strong enough to fire the motor.
Cranked a few more times to push the fuel out, put the plugs back in, tried to start, still cranks but no fire. Been cranking for about a minute or so, and now the battery is starting to die.
As I said, the car's been sitting for about a month. I've disconnected the battery at some point, but I'm not sure when.
Now, could it be that the battery doesn't have enough juice and the spark is too weak to fire?
01-04-09, 04:15 PM
#2
There are small black wires on the engine under neath the rats nest if these ground wires dont get installed then this could occur. there is a soog troubleshooting guide in the archives. You have to make sure you put everything back the exact same way it went for starters.
01-04-09, 07:23 PM
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Hmm...Black wires that are connected to what, exactly? This is GSL-SE, there aren't really any black wires under there aside from the injector wires, which I'm pretty sure I hooked up right.
There are wires from the emissions stuff and intake temp sensor, and TPS, but other than that there's not much else. I took good care to make sure everything is hooked up the way it was.
Anything else to check for?
There are wires from the emissions stuff and intake temp sensor, and TPS, but other than that there's not much else. I took good care to make sure everything is hooked up the way it was.
Anything else to check for?
01-04-09, 07:53 PM
#5
You need to have the leading plugs clean and dry, trailings don't matter that much. Follow the deflooding proceedure in the FAQs and be sure to remove the ignition and pump fuses while cranking, with the gas pedal to the floor. I also squirt a teaspoon or so of oil, Seafoam, MMO etc. into the leading plug holes after deflooding. This helps lube the apex seals and restore the compression lost from the raw fuel that has washed down the combustion chambers.
Battery needs to be fully charged, check for a strong spark and make sure coil and spark plug wiring is correct. Check the connector to the #2 temperature sensor on the rear of the water pump housing. If this isn't plugged in or the wires are broken, it will not start. Black wires refered to earlier are grounds to the engine, make sure those and the battery cable wires are cleaned. There are 2 connectors near the alternator that will plug into it, only one is correct. If the wrong one is plugged in, battery discharges. If you're not sure if you have the right one, check the wiring diagram.
Battery needs to be fully charged, check for a strong spark and make sure coil and spark plug wiring is correct. Check the connector to the #2 temperature sensor on the rear of the water pump housing. If this isn't plugged in or the wires are broken, it will not start. Black wires refered to earlier are grounds to the engine, make sure those and the battery cable wires are cleaned. There are 2 connectors near the alternator that will plug into it, only one is correct. If the wrong one is plugged in, battery discharges. If you're not sure if you have the right one, check the wiring diagram.
01-04-09, 08:09 PM
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I see. I will try all of those. Will check and double-check all the wiring. Looking over the ground wires it seems everything is hooked up right. I did not disconnect much in the first place.
You know, I'm thinking maybe I had a brain fart and wired the injectors wrong, but I wouldn't have the mist spraying out of the spark plug holes when cranking if injectors weren't working, right? I'd hate to dig them out again.
Will try charging the battery and de-flooding a few time and cleaning the injectors. Too bad the car is in the basement garage and I can't get it out for a push-start (the entry driveway is pretty steep, would need a tow truck to pull it out).
You know, I'm thinking maybe I had a brain fart and wired the injectors wrong, but I wouldn't have the mist spraying out of the spark plug holes when cranking if injectors weren't working, right? I'd hate to dig them out again.
Will try charging the battery and de-flooding a few time and cleaning the injectors. Too bad the car is in the basement garage and I can't get it out for a push-start (the entry driveway is pretty steep, would need a tow truck to pull it out).
01-04-09, 08:54 PM
#7
It's possible you may have the injectors clips swapped, the + wire colors are different between the 2. Since you have fuel, they are firing, maybe not at the right time.
As far as getting it out of the garage, you might be suprised how far one can move the car by simply cranking with the clutch out. I've done that more than once or twice to get the widebody back to the garage when I first put it together and had problems with debris in the fuel tank plugging an added fuel filter. Longest trip was about 3 blocks. That's why I keep spare starters laying around.
As far as getting it out of the garage, you might be suprised how far one can move the car by simply cranking with the clutch out. I've done that more than once or twice to get the widebody back to the garage when I first put it together and had problems with debris in the fuel tank plugging an added fuel filter. Longest trip was about 3 blocks. That's why I keep spare starters laying around.
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01-04-09, 09:14 PM
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Well, it's snowing now, so that's gonna complicate matters even further. I don't think the car's going to climb the slippery ramp even if I did crank it.
Good point about the injector connectors, but no, I didn't cross-wire them. The front injector wires aren't long enough to reach the rear injector without bending things all weird like. I was more worried about cross-wiring each individual injector, you know putting the black wire where the brown wire goes and vise-versa. Does it even matter? I guess it does, but I don't think I did that, else I wouldn't get fuel.
BTW, what's the deal with removing the ignition and fuel pump fuses for cranking?
Good point about the injector connectors, but no, I didn't cross-wire them. The front injector wires aren't long enough to reach the rear injector without bending things all weird like. I was more worried about cross-wiring each individual injector, you know putting the black wire where the brown wire goes and vise-versa. Does it even matter? I guess it does, but I don't think I did that, else I wouldn't get fuel.
BTW, what's the deal with removing the ignition and fuel pump fuses for cranking?
01-04-09, 09:46 PM
#9
Even is you could switch the injector connectors, it would not matter. The injectors are batch fired (fired togther). There is no way for the ECU to know engine position in order to do sequential injection.
Make sure AFM is plugged in, check the vacuum switch (under the windshield washer bottle), check the coolant temp sensor (back of water pump) connection. On the vacuum switch, it is buried and often overlooked. Also, the vac lines in that area like to get pulled off when working in that area.
Sounds like you are getting fuel, so this means that at least trailing ignition is working and that the tach signal is getting to the ECU (tells the ECU to fire injectors and gives RPM info). It also means that those black ground wires (under vac solenoids) are connected. Double check ignition wires (don't know if you messed with them).
It might be just flooded. Try the deflooding procedure. If that doesn't work, we'll go from there.
Make sure AFM is plugged in, check the vacuum switch (under the windshield washer bottle), check the coolant temp sensor (back of water pump) connection. On the vacuum switch, it is buried and often overlooked. Also, the vac lines in that area like to get pulled off when working in that area.
Sounds like you are getting fuel, so this means that at least trailing ignition is working and that the tach signal is getting to the ECU (tells the ECU to fire injectors and gives RPM info). It also means that those black ground wires (under vac solenoids) are connected. Double check ignition wires (don't know if you messed with them).
It might be just flooded. Try the deflooding procedure. If that doesn't work, we'll go from there.
01-04-09, 10:04 PM
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I just checked something. Seems trailing plugs have more fuel on them, and also front rotor plugs have more fuel on them overall. Tested this by hanging a paper towel sheet in front of each of the rotor's spark holes (with plugs out) and then cranked.
Front rotor paper towel got two big blotches of dark mist on it, but the rear rotor paper towel only got a little bit. Hmm... So the rear rotor is getting less fuel then? I'm thinking I'm gonna take the manifold off and take a look at the injectors and their wiring.
Although if the front rotor is getting fuel, then it should at least fire, and I should be running on one rotor, no?
Front rotor paper towel got two big blotches of dark mist on it, but the rear rotor paper towel only got a little bit. Hmm... So the rear rotor is getting less fuel then? I'm thinking I'm gonna take the manifold off and take a look at the injectors and their wiring.
Although if the front rotor is getting fuel, then it should at least fire, and I should be running on one rotor, no?
01-04-09, 10:12 PM
#11
Seeing those flames leaping from the engine bay gave me one of the biggest scares I've ever had. Jumped out of the car, grabbed a blanket and smothered the fire.
01-04-09, 10:46 PM
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Makes sense.
But wait a minute. There are no fuses. There are fusible links, and I can't tell which is which. Can't find the de-flooding procedure in the FAQ, either. There's carbon lock, hydro lock... Where's the flooding section? Thanks.
But wait a minute. There are no fuses. There are fusible links, and I can't tell which is which. Can't find the de-flooding procedure in the FAQ, either. There's carbon lock, hydro lock... Where's the flooding section? Thanks.
01-04-09, 11:13 PM
#13
Remove the fuse marked "Engine" from the fuse box or just unplug the trailing ignitor connector at the distributor. It is the one closest to the Alternator.
Sounds like the battery was too low when you went to start the engine. This is a common thing and on SE's if you don't have adequate cranking power and compression they will not start.
You need to have the battery fully charged and tested. Then once it is back in the vehicle if you have a booster charger or another vehicle to jump off of that would be even better.
De-procedure is simple. Pull plugs and disconnect trailing ignitor connector or engine fuse, disconnect coil wires from cap. Depress gas pedal to floor and crank engine with piece of paper in front of spark plug holes (that way you know when all fuel is dispelled). Take spoon full of engine oil and put into each leading hole, I use trigger oil can with flex hose on the end. Make sure plugs are clean and dry.
If doubtful about condition of plugs get new leading ones and install.
Plug trailing ignitor connector back in, reinstall coil wires and crank engine. If sounds like it is going to flood again while doing this then depress gas pedal to the floor and hold. If does not start after doing this multiple times then it is time to tow the vehicle. I have had to do this to get it to restart. :-)
Also make sure that the connection of the air intake hose is tight where it joins with the clamp and that you have the small air intake hose that goes to the plenum in and seated.
Sounds like the battery was too low when you went to start the engine. This is a common thing and on SE's if you don't have adequate cranking power and compression they will not start.
You need to have the battery fully charged and tested. Then once it is back in the vehicle if you have a booster charger or another vehicle to jump off of that would be even better.
De-procedure is simple. Pull plugs and disconnect trailing ignitor connector or engine fuse, disconnect coil wires from cap. Depress gas pedal to floor and crank engine with piece of paper in front of spark plug holes (that way you know when all fuel is dispelled). Take spoon full of engine oil and put into each leading hole, I use trigger oil can with flex hose on the end. Make sure plugs are clean and dry.
If doubtful about condition of plugs get new leading ones and install.
Plug trailing ignitor connector back in, reinstall coil wires and crank engine. If sounds like it is going to flood again while doing this then depress gas pedal to the floor and hold. If does not start after doing this multiple times then it is time to tow the vehicle. I have had to do this to get it to restart. :-)
Also make sure that the connection of the air intake hose is tight where it joins with the clamp and that you have the small air intake hose that goes to the plenum in and seated.
01-05-09, 03:45 AM
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I thought that was for the ignition? Does pulling it disable the pump as well?
Although I could probably just floor it. As I understand it cuts the fuel during cranking when gas is floored.
Although I could probably just floor it. As I understand it cuts the fuel during cranking when gas is floored.
01-05-09, 08:22 AM
#17
The injection is tied to ignition. No spark (on trailing) = no injection. So you can pull the 'Engine' fuse. This will kill spark (and fuel) or you can disconnect the trailing ignitor (or pull the blue spade connector on trailing coil).
Holding the pedal WOT when cranking will not cut fuel. It does on the later 7s, but not on the SE.
Holding the pedal WOT when cranking will not cut fuel. It does on the later 7s, but not on the SE.
01-06-09, 12:46 AM
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Ok, recharged the battery, then deflooded the motor twice. Strangely it seems the pump is still running with engine fuse out. Is that normal?
But I cranked it until no mist came out. Dried the plugs, put them back in, connected all the wires, put the fuse back in - still no start both times. Sprayed some carb cleaner into the TB, still no start.
Maybe plugs have gone bad and the spark is too weak. I don't want to test them on or around the car anymore. Fire hazard. Any way to test them away from the car? Do auto supply stores test them? Like NAPA? I'll pick up another set of plugs tomorrow, as kind of a last resort... Not sure what else to do.
BTW, after the first deflooding yielded no start, I pulled the plugs, and it seems only the front rotor trailing plug was pretty soaked, the other three seemed kind of dry.
Maybe it's not flooding. Maybe I'm not getting the right mixture and it won't ignite... Maybe injectors aren't spraying? Don't know why that would be.
But I cranked it until no mist came out. Dried the plugs, put them back in, connected all the wires, put the fuse back in - still no start both times. Sprayed some carb cleaner into the TB, still no start.
Maybe plugs have gone bad and the spark is too weak. I don't want to test them on or around the car anymore. Fire hazard. Any way to test them away from the car? Do auto supply stores test them? Like NAPA? I'll pick up another set of plugs tomorrow, as kind of a last resort... Not sure what else to do.
BTW, after the first deflooding yielded no start, I pulled the plugs, and it seems only the front rotor trailing plug was pretty soaked, the other three seemed kind of dry.
Maybe it's not flooding. Maybe I'm not getting the right mixture and it won't ignite... Maybe injectors aren't spraying? Don't know why that would be.
01-06-09, 02:41 AM
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Ok, new development. I'm not sure how I overlooked this, but my second (rear) rotor makes no whoosh when I crank. Front one does, (3 solid whooshes) but rear doesn't make a single sound. I must have tested the same hole twice. lulz
The rotor does turn, so it's not stuck (sprayed a bit of Seafoam in there just to loosen it up some more), and it does push out air (and it definitely blew out the paper towel that I stuck into the hole), but when I crank it, it makes no sound.
What's that then? No compression? There's no way the motor blew all the seals just sitting there, and it ran fine and had decent compression last time I turned it off. I squirted oil in there after deflooding. Could it be that it doesn't have enough to restore compression?
This is puzzling, but at least it's a step in some kind of direction.
The rotor does turn, so it's not stuck (sprayed a bit of Seafoam in there just to loosen it up some more), and it does push out air (and it definitely blew out the paper towel that I stuck into the hole), but when I crank it, it makes no sound.
What's that then? No compression? There's no way the motor blew all the seals just sitting there, and it ran fine and had decent compression last time I turned it off. I squirted oil in there after deflooding. Could it be that it doesn't have enough to restore compression?
This is puzzling, but at least it's a step in some kind of direction.
01-06-09, 10:07 AM
#21
Let me make sure I understand this. The rear rotor whooshes when turning the engine over by hand, but doesn't when cranking? If that's the case, then the only reason I can think that may be happening is the seals are sticking due to carbon. The springs have enough time to push the seals back during hand cranking, but don't at the higher rpm of starter cranking. Never heard of that one.
My suggestion, soak the engine with Seafoam for a couple days, when the snow goes away, tow start it.
My suggestion, soak the engine with Seafoam for a couple days, when the snow goes away, tow start it.
01-06-09, 11:19 AM
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No whoosh when turning by hand from either rotor, but they do push out air at seemingly the same rate. Maybe I'm not turning them fast enough.
Only the front one whooshes when cranking. Which is what I heard when doing the deflooding procedure. It should've occurred to me that they need to be whooshing at twice the rate, since they're offset.
I'll soak it with Seafoam some more today, and pick up a cheap-o compression tester after work to get a better reading, but I have a feeling it's not going to look good. And that's probably why it won't start.
Only the front one whooshes when cranking. Which is what I heard when doing the deflooding procedure. It should've occurred to me that they need to be whooshing at twice the rate, since they're offset.
I'll soak it with Seafoam some more today, and pick up a cheap-o compression tester after work to get a better reading, but I have a feeling it's not going to look good. And that's probably why it won't start.
01-06-09, 03:47 PM
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I found this post in 3rd gen forum, but I think it applies.
Is this method worth trying as well (especially the seal wiggling)?
I'm hoping the seals are just stuck, and aren't damaged/destroyed. I do have over 190,000 miles on the motor. Fingers crossed...
Hey Tim if it is carbon sticking this is something that I did to my 20b when I first got it a couple years ago to free the carbon sticking of the seals. My 20b had zero compression on all 3 rotors when I got it. Now I have very strong puffs when I crank it over. Look for my post half way down. Also he wouldn't have to remove the engine to do this. All he would need to do is remove the turbos and manifold to have access to the exhaust ports. Use a funnel and pore in some fuel injector cleaner or some acetone to break down the carbon. This stuff will break down carbon unlike ATF. 2 cups worth in each housing will be enough to completely submerge the apex and corner seals in the solution. The key is making sure the apex seals are in the 6 o'clock position. Let it soak for 30min and manually rotate the engine over so the other apex seals are submerged. In between soakings, he could grab a plastic knife and wiggle the apex seals while they are exposed in the exhaust port. This will also help loosen things up. After all 6 sides have been done, a small tube and air compressor can be used to blow the solution out. Install the tube in the housing and blow air across the top of it. This will lower the air pressure over the tube and the solution will come flying out. Also make sure he sprays water in the area that the solution is spray too. You don't want to start a fire during start-up.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ghlight=secret
I know this sounds weird but it works and it's a cheap easy fix. I've done it to my Fd when the engine was out while changing the clutch. I also scrubbed my rotor faces with a scotch pad to remove the carbon from them. I have excellent compression with my original 96k engine. Hope this helps.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ghlight=secret
I know this sounds weird but it works and it's a cheap easy fix. I've done it to my Fd when the engine was out while changing the clutch. I also scrubbed my rotor faces with a scotch pad to remove the carbon from them. I have excellent compression with my original 96k engine. Hope this helps.
I'm hoping the seals are just stuck, and aren't damaged/destroyed. I do have over 190,000 miles on the motor. Fingers crossed...