Latin270

Bro you nuts ! Just but a gsl in MD for $200.00 in beautiful shape! $35k - $40k NEVER!

Aviator 902S

You have made some valid points. It would cost over $12,000 to restore a beater 1st gen to showroom condition without cutting any corners. And it's very hard to find pristine unmolest... er, un-modified original examples of these cars. I'd say about one in fifty qualify, and that's being generous.

But these one-in-fifty examples are currently selling for between $3500 and $4000, unless it's a GSL-SE--- which could fetch $4500 to $5000. This is why there aren't many original pristine 1st gens out there--- it's simply not worth the investment to restore them properly, at least not yet. The ones we're seeing are in such good shape because they were never allowed to deteriorate in the first place.

I expect that in another ten years pristine 1st gens will be worth way more--- on the order of the 12K that this guy is hoping to score right now. I'm guessing he's a dealer.

hammmy

KBB.com probably wasn't planning on letting him list it on their site for another 10 years.


Dan_s_young is correct, anyone with $12K to spend on a RX-7 would get a better value by buying a 3rd gen. Better collectability (given an additional 10 years) too, I'd bet.

-dave

cosmicbang

If you have a GSL in truly "beautiful shape" I would gladly pay you $2,000 (ten times what you paid) for it; how about that for nuts? I am serious, but I suspect we have different definitions of "beautiful shape".

The $35,000-$40,000 cars are 93-95 models. My point is for example the NADA value for a 1993 is $9,400, yet it sells for over four times (4x) that amount due to its condition and the modifications. So a 1984 with a NADA retail value of $4,300 is not inconceivable to be worth $18,000 with the right modifications and condition.

Aviator 902S

Maybe in theory. But in the real world a car is worth what the market will bear. And right now, for a mint condition (un-modded, no accidents, non-restored and with all service records) 1984-85 GSL 12A the market will bear no more than 4K. NOT 12K. Not even close. Very few people are retarded enough to pay more than 1/3rd that amount for one.

As for mods, again: they rarely increase the car's value. In fact, they may even DECREASE the car's value, and they NEVER increase the value enough to cover the expense of performing the mods in the first place.

Ratted out 3rd gens that need $20,000 in professional restoration costs can be had for $15,000--- but that won't make them worth $35,000 because well-kept examples can be had for well under $30,000. This of course doesn't stop some sellers from advertising theirs for 40K---- they just rarely if ever succeed in getting that much because damn near everyone who likes these cars knows what they can be had for, thus setting the market value.

It is blatantly obvious to these buyers that sellers advertising their cars for 40% to 300% above market value have a grossly elevated sense of what their cars are worth. Either that or these dealers really are aware of the car's true value, but are holding out for a sucker--- which makes them every inch the crooks that most of us suspect them to be.

NewRXr

Not as long as this one's still for sale:
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...st=1574#vdptop

cosmicbang

In the real world, there are plenty of dealers around here who charge $4,000 to $6,000 for a 1983-1985 in good condition. I looked at ads regularly for a couple years and inspected many of these cars. The average retail asking price was over $4,500. They may not sell for the full advertised price, but certainly not 1/3 of the amount.The cost of mods may not be fully recouped. However while some mods decrease value, the right mods almost always increase the value. It depends on the mod. As I mentioned in the other thread, look at some of the recent auctions of modified older cars.I have bought running but ratty 93's for $3,500 and $4,000. Someone else on this forum just got a nice one for $2,500. That does not stop people from paying $30,00-$40,000 for well-modded ones in good condition. Yes it happens; there are people who pay over $30,000 when the car is worth it.Probably most of them are overpriced. However IMHO the market value should be higher.

Aviator 902S

The 1/3rd I mentioned was directed at the guy asking 12K for a 4k car. Dealers typically demand 30 to 50% over market value (and accept your trade-in for 30 to 50% UNDER market value, but that's another debate), but they rarely get the price they ask for. The car sits on the lot all summer and then the boss sez, "damn, guess people aren't as stupid as I thought. Knock it down another 10%" and then another, and another until it gets sold. Best to buy these cars from induviduals rather than dealers.

The mods that actually succeed in increasing the car's value are usually of the reversible variety (don't throw away the original parts), or they are so expensive (ie: a 15K 20B conversion in a 4K 1st gen) that you'll need to wait until the middle of the next decade for a return on your investment. (Mutual funds would have been safer, but that too is another argument).

And yes, there are people who will pay over market value--- very rich folks who think nothing of plunking down 50K on a whim and wouldn't notice it missing.

I agree with you that the market value for our rotary-powered cars should be higher, and in time it will be. But for now I can't ignore the reality that as long as there are nicer 1st gens than my own going for under 4K I'll never be able to get 6K for mine.

hammmy

Therein lies the catch. Market value is nothing more than the average of every potential buyer's opinion at a given point in time. When you see dealer prices in the $4-6K range, you are seeing the actual market value plus the dealer's most avaricious hope for profit, at minimum $1K alone.

Personally, I would take an average of the assessments of a group knowledgeable about the marque over an price listed by a dealer or a restorer or KBB. We have here (on average) an awareness of the RX-7's flaws and capabilities: the first gen is pretty but slow and cheaply made, the 2nd gen is ugly but capable, the 3rd gen is a marvel of technology that serves as a prime example of Murphy's Law. Other potential buyers look at age, mileage, and condition as the sole factors--ignorant of knowing that a pristine 1st gen might hide storage bin rust, or that a perfect condition 3rd gen will require expensive maintenance (if a mechanic can be found).

It is very easy to speak of how great the future values of these cars might be. The collector's market here in the U.S. is still very narrowminded when it comes to Japanese vehicles. The rotary engine will help overcome that prejudice, in my estimation, but it may in fact be vastly more valuable in the less widely available early imports such as the early RXs instead of the very common production cars we own. After all, how valuable is a '79 Mustang or Camaro today? To pay premium price for a perfect RX-7 today in the hopes that it will reach significantly above (say, double) that value in another 10-15 years (for the 1st gen alone) seems optimistic in the extreme.

Aviator 902S

Very well stated. And yes, Japanese classics take longer to increase in value than the 60s muscle cars and even then they aren't putting up as high numbers.

But muscle cars that need restoration are typically selling for a lot more than their Japanese counterparts because their restored value is a known quantity and that quantity is high. This means that the days of inexpensive restorable 60s Mustangs and Camaros has come and gone. 20 years ago a restorable 68 Mustang could be had for around $2000. That same car now typically goes for over 8K.

Even the Japanese Datsun 240Z, which could have been purchased in restorable condition 10 or 15 years ago for under 3K and sold restored for 7K is now over 5K in ok condition and upwards of 12K once properly restored.

The 1st gen RX7s are in the same class as the 240Z was--- both were very popular and revolutionary sports cars in their day, both were affordable to the masses when first introduced, both are enthusiast cars and both hung onto their resale value for twice as long as their domestic counterparts before dropping off in value. The 240Z has escalated in value over the last fifteen years, and there's no reason to doubt that the 1st gen RX7 will do the same over the next ten to fifteen. The only difference is that 240Zs in restorable condition are getting expensive. 1st gen 7s on the other hand can still be had in restorable condition for under $1500. Get them while you can.

2.0L 1st Gen

Did anyone notice that it has a 4 cylinder in it? Maybe its that special edition GSL with pistons. I dont think this guys has a clue what hes selling. That car is worth no more that 3200.

cosmicbang

The "market" which determines the "market value" is composed of a much larger universe of buyers and sellers than simply RX-7 enthusiasts. The fact that we are discussing this subject indicates we are familiar with the car and have some idea of what the value should be based on our knowledge. To the rest of the universe of buyers and sellers, it is a used sports car.

Those buyers and sellers, as mentioned, consider the age, mileage and condition, but they consider those factors in the context of other vehicles on the lot, so to speak. I cannot speak for all parts of the country, but for the last several years I have observed local asking prices for 1st gen cars much higher than what what forum members have quoted. One could speculate that because the supply of RX-7s is very low, and most other sports cars are more expensive, the local price of RX-7s more closely approximates the other available sports cars in this market with a large number of potential buyers.

If one compares the NADA market prices with what RX-7 club forum members say should be the "correct" values, the NADA value for 1st gen cars is higher and the NADA value for 3rd gen cars is lower. NADA did not pick those prices out of the air, and likewise RX-7 enthusiasts should know what they are talking about. The price disparity shows that the world at large has placed a higher value on 1st gen RX-7s than the owners themselves have done.

Personally, I would pick whichever market and price is to my best advantage depending on whether I am a buyer or a seller. Nevertheless, if the overall market price rises, it will result in more money being spent on parts and to keep them running, and hence better support from vendors. The end result is a benefit for owners.

In terms of ultimate collector value, the most likely precedent seems to be Datsun 240Zs, which have increased somewhat in market value. ...And as we know they are a vastly inferior car.

FWIW, the RX-7 is just about the only Japanese car I would own.

sfc711@cox-internet.com

I have almost the same exact car 84 GLS-SE with a12A motor swapped in it, Pacifica Auto 3piece body kit,burgundy interior, 95% mint cond and I paid $900 for it. $12,000 is way too high. IF it sells for that then HE can sell mine too.

TopGunM2k

What was the guy smoking when he posted the car for sale?
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/656571