This 1St GEN is killing me, help it out can you?
11-26-05, 01:13 AM
#1
This 1St GEN is killing me, help it out can you?
ok, heres the story from the beginning...
I own a 2nd GEN, and i met a guy with a 1st gen and it had some problems, it was a freebee from a relitive. After much deliberation we got it started and it ran for 2 or 3 seconds and then shut down. it would also Idle at 3k rpm.
We Discovered from the relitive that the Cats were put in Backwards! So we remove the exaust at the header and it runs, and pretty well. but then dies after getting to maybe 4th gear. so after much money he gets new cats put on it as well as a new battery for it as well as a new fuel pump put on. So we try it some more, and soon discover that no matter what we do it will not run for more then 5 minutes at a time, and the lowest we would get it to idle was about 2100 rpm After discussing the situation with a rotary engine rebuilder, he says that its most likely vapor lock in the carburator and it needs a rebuild.
I buy the gasket hit(not the rebuild kit couldnt afford it when a new carb can be found for a little bit more).
Well after 15-17 hours of taking apart, cleaning, and re-assembling, the carb is back to gather and back in the car this morning, it cranks up but will not stay cranked with out the choke 1/4 the way out. and it STILL will only run a few minutes at a time. but it also now idles at 1700 which is a little bit lower but still not what we need...
What am i to do now? firstly i need to know were to look for mixture control adjustment persedure, and i dont even know how much that will help me.
its an 1982 12A
I own a 2nd GEN, and i met a guy with a 1st gen and it had some problems, it was a freebee from a relitive. After much deliberation we got it started and it ran for 2 or 3 seconds and then shut down. it would also Idle at 3k rpm.
We Discovered from the relitive that the Cats were put in Backwards! So we remove the exaust at the header and it runs, and pretty well. but then dies after getting to maybe 4th gear. so after much money he gets new cats put on it as well as a new battery for it as well as a new fuel pump put on. So we try it some more, and soon discover that no matter what we do it will not run for more then 5 minutes at a time, and the lowest we would get it to idle was about 2100 rpm After discussing the situation with a rotary engine rebuilder, he says that its most likely vapor lock in the carburator and it needs a rebuild.
I buy the gasket hit(not the rebuild kit couldnt afford it when a new carb can be found for a little bit more).
Well after 15-17 hours of taking apart, cleaning, and re-assembling, the carb is back to gather and back in the car this morning, it cranks up but will not stay cranked with out the choke 1/4 the way out. and it STILL will only run a few minutes at a time. but it also now idles at 1700 which is a little bit lower but still not what we need...
What am i to do now? firstly i need to know were to look for mixture control adjustment persedure, and i dont even know how much that will help me.
its an 1982 12A
11-26-05, 07:05 AM
#2
running problems
I am pretty dure you replace the filter and check to ensure the gas tank is clean and free of debris. The carb adjustments are on the driver side of the carb, I do not remmeber for sure wether it has two or one screw, actually one screw, you did said is an 82. Take that one screww in all the way, carefull not to go too tight since it will burr the brass, (screw). Once you get all the way in back it out 2 to 2 1/2 turns. Make sure there are no vacumm leaks. DId you put the headers back on it or the cats. Any how, make sure there are no vacum leaks. After starting the car adjust screw to where there is no movement of the engine, (rattle).
Let me know how that works.
Let me know how that works.
11-26-05, 08:49 AM
#3
Might help if you were looking at the carb fuel bowl windows when it is running to see if the level is dropping before it stalls. It is easiest to see the front window. This will help you to understand if lack of fuel is causing the problem.
Also always start it with the choke pulled all the way out.
Good luck
Also always start it with the choke pulled all the way out.
Good luck
11-26-05, 10:02 AM
#5
yes fuel filter was replaced as well as the Gas was empty so we added 4 gallons to it so it should be all new. i did find the info about :
left screw is idle mix (turn in all the way and back out 2.5 turns)
right screw is idle speed (iirc, turn in all the way and turn out 7 turns)
and i will try that next.
yes there is a full exaust on the car now, i will use the windows to give us an idea , the problem is that it ran fine idleing for serveral minutes but its when we get going down the road it dies..
left screw is idle mix (turn in all the way and back out 2.5 turns)
right screw is idle speed (iirc, turn in all the way and turn out 7 turns)
and i will try that next.
yes there is a full exaust on the car now, i will use the windows to give us an idea , the problem is that it ran fine idleing for serveral minutes but its when we get going down the road it dies..
11-26-05, 10:23 AM
#7
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just get rid of the dam rats nest plug all the vacums and lets go.also try to get your distributor timed right if anyone ever made a tuneup make sure all wires went back to their apropriate place
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11-26-05, 12:21 PM
#10
yes rats nest removal was my next move!
there is one open pipe on the bottum carb that has always been open maybe thats it? o well i got the PDF from mazspeed, good bye rats nest..
also i changed the idle set screw it went in 9 turns! then took it back out 2 and a half, boom, runs much smoother and much easyer to start
it still will only idle at 1600 or more, and you must use the choke. also it still dies after a few miles but it seems to go alot more then it did. also i watched the windows on the carb, when we cranked it the windows went down and i was expecting it to die at any time then they came back up to normal level. :\
i think we might try to find a good after market fuel pump/regulator combo, it just seems to run out of juice if you try to go any more then 5k rpm... thanks alot for all your help guys
there is one open pipe on the bottum carb that has always been open maybe thats it? o well i got the PDF from mazspeed, good bye rats nest..
also i changed the idle set screw it went in 9 turns! then took it back out 2 and a half, boom, runs much smoother and much easyer to start
it still will only idle at 1600 or more, and you must use the choke. also it still dies after a few miles but it seems to go alot more then it did. also i watched the windows on the carb, when we cranked it the windows went down and i was expecting it to die at any time then they came back up to normal level. :\
i think we might try to find a good after market fuel pump/regulator combo, it just seems to run out of juice if you try to go any more then 5k rpm... thanks alot for all your help guys
11-26-05, 03:29 PM
#12
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check the spark plugs! plugs never lie, check out a Clymer's or Chilton's from the public library.
Red ceramic spug plug insulators points to fuel starvation. Fuel starvation can be from poor poor fuel pump, clogged line, or old fuel filter...and vacuum leak
Black ceramic plug insulators points to too rich of mixture or poor ignition. Rotaries can run without the trailing plugs firing. This means you can use exchange the trailing and leading wires if you suspect that you have poor ignition.
If you suspect bad or fowled plugs, try using some el cheapo autolites($2 apiece) before springing for the NKG plugs ($8 per plug) that you really need. Autolites don't burn as well so the carbon builds up. This will clip your apex seals in a few months.
Does the engine run rough when it runs at all?
Red ceramic spug plug insulators points to fuel starvation. Fuel starvation can be from poor poor fuel pump, clogged line, or old fuel filter...and vacuum leak
Black ceramic plug insulators points to too rich of mixture or poor ignition. Rotaries can run without the trailing plugs firing. This means you can use exchange the trailing and leading wires if you suspect that you have poor ignition.
If you suspect bad or fowled plugs, try using some el cheapo autolites($2 apiece) before springing for the NKG plugs ($8 per plug) that you really need. Autolites don't burn as well so the carbon builds up. This will clip your apex seals in a few months.
Does the engine run rough when it runs at all?
11-26-05, 05:52 PM
#13
fuel
is the fuel clean? does it looks rusty, brownish? I have a couple of carter fuels that will be willing to part out with, too noisy. Make me an offer.
I still believe is a fuel problem. TIming has a lot to do with it but if it starts an runs without a lot of back firing timing is not the main problem. How is your idle screw set up. As you look at the carb from the drivers side it is almost below the right fuel bowl and by the linkage. How about your accelerator cable. I syour carburator cleaned?
I still believe is a fuel problem. TIming has a lot to do with it but if it starts an runs without a lot of back firing timing is not the main problem. How is your idle screw set up. As you look at the carb from the drivers side it is almost below the right fuel bowl and by the linkage. How about your accelerator cable. I syour carburator cleaned?
11-27-05, 06:53 PM
#14
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Running leaner than normal (or with vacuum leaks, which produce a lean-running condition) will show up most at idle rather than while cruising. The engine will idle rough (if at all) and quit when you let up on the gas with the clutch pedal depressed, but it should still run fine in gear and while driving and it shouldn't run fine and then quit while in gear and moving at normal driving speeds. The engine temp may be higher than normal though, which is another not-so-desireable condition.
Exactly how does the car die, ie: does it run fine at first but then once driving and with increased rpms quickly bog down and then quit? This would indicate insufficient fuel flow, possibly a bad fuel pump, fuel filter or faulty wiring to the pump.
Hint: remove the drivers' side storage bin behind the seat and inspect the wiring harness where the plastic junction is. You'll find this junction on the floor of the storage bin area on the far left side. If you have storage bin corrosion, water would be allowed to enter this area from the left rear wheel well. This could intermittently short out the electric fuel pump, or at least reduce the current so that it can't deliver enough fuel above a given rpm. The result would be fuel starvation that seems to go away when you re-start the car.
Once the engine reaches operating temps and the choke **** retracts, does it idle and run fine at first but then "load up", ie: the revs slowly drop until the engine quits? If so, and this is accompanied by blackish sooty spark plug insulators (on the business end of the plugs) this would indicate a too rich-running carb. The cause if this is happening under conditions other than idle may be a float needle valve that's not seating properly and allowing the bowl to over-fill.
Or does it run and rev fine under load and then suddenly the rpms drop like an anvil to zero? If this is the case I'd suspect an electrical issue, possibly a totally failed trailing ignitor and an intermittently bad leading ignitor (or vice-versa) that manifests itself as it reaches a given temperature. I've never had an ignitor fail "intermittently." They generally either work or they don't.
It's pretty far-fetched that both ignitors are bad, but in theory (if they could fail gradually) it's possible. If the leading one failed first the car would run crappy and not idle below the mid-teens because the trailing is retarded 15 degrees after TDC. If this bad leading ignitor condition were accompanied by a trailing ignitor that failed at a given temperature the engine would quit when this temperature was reached. But if the trailing ignitor failed you'd have a tachometer that didn't work but an engine that seemed to run fine--- as long as the leading ignitor has no intermitent problems.
You could check your ignitors for continuity (the Haynes manual describes this simple process), but if the problem were indeed intermittent the result would be inconclusive. Or just for grins you could pick up a couple from the wrecking yard and swap them in.
BTW, the ignitors are those little black rectangular thingies screwed onto the outside of the distributor, the ones with wires coming out of them. The leading ignitor is the one on the forward side of the distributor and the trailing is in the right-hand side of the distributor. You'll need a wrench to loosen the alternator and swing it out of the way, and a stubby phillips screwdriver to remove the ignitors.
Exactly how does the car die, ie: does it run fine at first but then once driving and with increased rpms quickly bog down and then quit? This would indicate insufficient fuel flow, possibly a bad fuel pump, fuel filter or faulty wiring to the pump.
Hint: remove the drivers' side storage bin behind the seat and inspect the wiring harness where the plastic junction is. You'll find this junction on the floor of the storage bin area on the far left side. If you have storage bin corrosion, water would be allowed to enter this area from the left rear wheel well. This could intermittently short out the electric fuel pump, or at least reduce the current so that it can't deliver enough fuel above a given rpm. The result would be fuel starvation that seems to go away when you re-start the car.
Once the engine reaches operating temps and the choke **** retracts, does it idle and run fine at first but then "load up", ie: the revs slowly drop until the engine quits? If so, and this is accompanied by blackish sooty spark plug insulators (on the business end of the plugs) this would indicate a too rich-running carb. The cause if this is happening under conditions other than idle may be a float needle valve that's not seating properly and allowing the bowl to over-fill.
Or does it run and rev fine under load and then suddenly the rpms drop like an anvil to zero? If this is the case I'd suspect an electrical issue, possibly a totally failed trailing ignitor and an intermittently bad leading ignitor (or vice-versa) that manifests itself as it reaches a given temperature. I've never had an ignitor fail "intermittently." They generally either work or they don't.
It's pretty far-fetched that both ignitors are bad, but in theory (if they could fail gradually) it's possible. If the leading one failed first the car would run crappy and not idle below the mid-teens because the trailing is retarded 15 degrees after TDC. If this bad leading ignitor condition were accompanied by a trailing ignitor that failed at a given temperature the engine would quit when this temperature was reached. But if the trailing ignitor failed you'd have a tachometer that didn't work but an engine that seemed to run fine--- as long as the leading ignitor has no intermitent problems.
You could check your ignitors for continuity (the Haynes manual describes this simple process), but if the problem were indeed intermittent the result would be inconclusive. Or just for grins you could pick up a couple from the wrecking yard and swap them in.
BTW, the ignitors are those little black rectangular thingies screwed onto the outside of the distributor, the ones with wires coming out of them. The leading ignitor is the one on the forward side of the distributor and the trailing is in the right-hand side of the distributor. You'll need a wrench to loosen the alternator and swing it out of the way, and a stubby phillips screwdriver to remove the ignitors.
Last edited by Aviator 902S; 11-27-05 at 06:56 PM.
11-28-05, 07:10 PM
#17
well the car has not idle any lower then 1800 before the rebuild of the carb, now we have gotten down to about 1400.
when driving it seems like it just falls flat on its face after about a few minutes of driving.
i think its pointing to a fuel pump problem and i will be taking the steps towards that next...
also i was thinking that maybe the fuel lines them selfs were clogged>? the fuel before the filter is pretty dirty, i have a day off from work tomorro, so thats what i will be doing.
thanks for all your exeillant input!
when driving it seems like it just falls flat on its face after about a few minutes of driving.
i think its pointing to a fuel pump problem and i will be taking the steps towards that next...
also i was thinking that maybe the fuel lines them selfs were clogged>? the fuel before the filter is pretty dirty, i have a day off from work tomorro, so thats what i will be doing.
thanks for all your exeillant input!
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