ok.. lately i have been having bad thoughts about getting another car because im tired of the slowness of my 12a (i know they CAN be fast, but i want something bigger)but i love my rex too much and im kinda attached to it being my first car and all. im thinking the solution would be to get a 13b swap in my car

im thinking this because from what i hear, the 12a tranny bolts right up (eventually will get a new one, but wouldnt be able to afford it at first) i hear you can use the stock distrubter from the 12a if you cant get an ecu and wiring harness (which i would try, but if i dont, no biggie) i could have the motor out, so i could port it before it even goes in instead of taking my motor out to port it.

plus mantis' statment that racing beat exhaust, K&N air filter could produce 170hp. im a little doubtfull of THAT much, but i would belive 150-160 (which isnt that far off, but im always up to get proved wrong ) i like the idea of EFI, the power of the 13b vs the 12a. (mostly the torque)

my question is, is it better to use a gslse 13b or a 89+ 13b? it will be n/a. i know i have to get a new fuel pump with regulator. but what about wiring? how much of a bitch is that? ive done some searching, and this is what i gathered, just want to make sure its accurate.


one other thing. is the adapter from racing beat any good? is it for first gen motors or second gen (i hear they are mounted different) and would that mean i could just drop the 13b in there with a direct bolt in? or would i still need to use the 12a front plate with the racing beat mount?

 

well I joined the forum with questions on this topic, and I'm in the middle of my swap.

You can... use a GSL-SE engine but, the 89+ are much more powerfull and have an 8000 rpm redline.

The only catch with the 89, is the wiring, which I'm still figureing out.

But I dont regret my decision to go with the 89+ engine one bit despite the wiring mess. The end result will be something I can be really proud of.

As far as that racing beat adapter get that thing, it makes the swap 10,000,000 times easier. With it the 13b just bolts in. You will have to use a 12a or GSL-SE front cover though.

Search for threads that I have started, as they should have all the info you need.

Good luck!

 

As for power, 170hp can't be far of... Stock N/A european spec make 150, so just an exhaust and filter could make over 170, as we all know the exhaust is a real hp-killer. I know of a German guy who used a FC N/A and has about 180-190HP in it now.
I'm also in a simular swap, using a complete FC for donor. At least this way I'll have the wires ready, so I guess that'll be easier.
12A front cover is easy to fit, and doesn't cost much used. You might need a different sump,though. Racing Beat sells one too. If you use that one I guess the oil pick up will have to be changed, to 12A or GSL-SE style.

 

thast cool, so would you say the swap is a fairly easy one?

my dad has the fuel pump and all that because he used to ahve a 13b in his car, now he has a chevy, so i have extra parts laying around, including an ecu.

so just to make sure? if i use the racing beat adapter, i still need a first gen front cover of some sort? where can i find one? what about the "sump". sorry if its a dumb question,. but whta is that.. you mean the oil sump? i mean, my dad has all this crap laying around, only think missing is a rotor, 2 housings, 2 side plates. and the injectors. other than that.. everything..

could one of yall do me a HUGH favor, if you have a list of some sort youve made of things you need, could you send it to me? that would be a GREAT help. i think im going to go with a 89+ motor seeing how it has more power. personally, do yall think its worth the time and money? i think it would be.. seeing how this would be the biggest hp gain i would ever see than if i did something to my 12a..

 

you gunna use a 4 port or a 6??

 

Do you have the engine wireing harness allready?

What I did, Is I took everything that was connected or bolted on to the engine outso nothing but the core was left then I had the core rebuilt.

If your like me, and your money is tight (i'm in high school... whatdaya expect?) I cant afford to get a full racing beat exaust right away. So as a tempory solution, I went out and got a GSL-SE exaust manifold so I could make do with my stock exaust untill I can get the RB setup. I also am doing this so I can pass my emissions test as well.

But yeah, go with the 89+ motor. There are ALOT less first gens out there with a FC 89+ motor in them than GSL-SE's so you will really have somthing special.

You can show those honda POS's what real engine power means. (IT DOESNT mean those damn four cylinders of fury woooO! scary!) The way I look at it, all these souped up civics... well they are still family cars, allways have been, and no matter what you do to them, they will still be driven by soccer moms and such.

But enough of that... I went way off topic. It will all be worth it in the end, the only thing i'm mad about is the 1000 mile engine break in proceedure.... I want to kill honda's NOW!!

 

i feel ya man, im in highschool also...

why are you hating on hondas so much, i agree, but in a way, i could of gotten my hands on a built ls motor (DOHC integra motor) and if i found a crx, i would have a mid 13's car, all motor. i almost did it, but i would rather have a 13b in my car...

im definately going second gen motor (89+) i think they have 150hp stock? correct me if im wrong. it will get street ported, and a racing beat header, and i will bolt that header to my existing exhaust, with an air filter, i can port the intake manifold, i think i should be near 200hp? am i right? if so im definately looking into it. my main x-mas present is money, so all that will go to the motor. after i get the motor, its all downhill from there pretty much besides the actual install. my dad already has most of the parts, and i think im going to use the front plate from my 12a for the 13b so it goes in (unless i can find one at a junk yard) so far, what i think i need is...

racing beat engine mount - $85
racing beat 13b streetable header - $187
wiring harness - ???
gslse oil pan - $35

i know there HAS to be some other stuff im not getting.. it cant be that easy. i plan to use the 12a tranny till i can afford a TII tranny, but then i need to get a new drive shaft too right? will the rear end stand up to 200hp? (gsl rear end)

 

you don't need a T2 tranny for the swap you're planning. your tranny will handle it just fine!

now this is just my opinion here, so take it for what it's worth, but unless you absolutely MUST have a 13B, you can get most of that power from your 12A for a little less money and a LOT less headache. (think of the frustration level you get from wiring a stereo system, then multiply it by 80 - that's you Gen II wiring harness.)

just get a really nice streetport 12A, a Weber IDA, a fuel system to support it, and call it a day. you may not make it to 200 HP, but i'm sure you can clear 170 pretty easy. shed some weight and it can feel like you've got more ... just something to think about.

 

A 12A can indeed go up to that power. But to street port, you have to get the engine apart, and that costs money too. Well, putting it back together that is... Rebuilding a 12A isn't that much cheaper then a 13B...
And a good carb isn't cheap either. I have a 12A (stock ported) in my car right now, using Mikuni carb and RB street port exhaust. That's rated at 150+hp. But to get more, I'd have to open up the engine. I don't like that idea, as the engine was bought brand new 2 years ago, and now has some 10.000km on it. So the engine will move on, and into my fathers fully restorated 1980 (he bought that one from me). I got myself a core 13B, and will rebuild that one. If you port that one right, and ad exhaust etc... you can get much more from it.
I'd say: get your goals on paper first. If you want like 150 or 160hp: go 12A, it's easier. If you want more: go 13B. It'll give you some more "growing potential".
But even if the engine will be a rather easy instal (RB bracket + oilpan is all the special parts you'll need, and an exhaust manifold), the wiring might be a serious problem.
So if you'll keep the 13B more or less stock, it might not really be worth it. It really depends o your future plans.
And financial situation. I think being honest with yourself is best here. We all buy stuff we can't really afford but setting yourself a goal will be better...
Wel that's only my opinion, and tat might not be worth that much. After all, here speaks the guy who has plans on a 13B N/A converted to turbo, and can't afford his fuel bill...(well, fuel does cost $1 per liter overhere)

 

I think it's a lot easier to install a 4-port 13B. I believe you can use the stock front cover, and you don't have to worry about any of that ECU stuff. I seem to remember that an RX3 or RX4 front mount turned around backwards was the ticket, but don't hold me to that. 170 HP is no problem with a street-ported 4-port 13B, but at about 160-165 HP the stock carb is maxed-out. A Holley, Weber, Mikuni, or Dell'orto carb will all improve over the stock carb. The torquiness of the 13B is it's real strength over the 12A, though. When you punch even a stock 13B, it gives you a nice shove starting a lot lower in the powerband, which is a nice feeling. -WG

 

Wankelguy, you're right on the earlier engines, they are easier to install (though I'm not too sure about the bracket thing, but even then: a RB bracket isn't really expensive) The reason I hardly ever think about using the older 13B's is that there are so few around here, so it'd be hard to find one, where as a FC is common. So I decided to slaughter an FC for the engine :-)

 

i want to go with a 13b instead of the 12a because of the growing potential.. i have an extra car (my dad's porche 924 which was my first car to drive) so thats not a problem when the car is down. i pull in about 214-275 every other week, with no bills except a $25 a month insurance (really good grades, on my dad's insurance, he has a clean record, all kinds of **** and they consider my car as a "sport coupe")

like i said, they growing potential.. the torque.. the swap.. the 13b has so much more than the 12a.. with alot less the cost.. i dont plan to keep it stock.

i made a excel sheet the other night.. saying i pick up a motor at a junkyard for $100, this swap will cost me under $500 with street porting templates, motor mounts, 12a front cover at the junkyard $10, all kinds of other crap. my dad has alot of stuff including an ecu, and he is a certified electrican and said it shouldnt be too much of a problem. i also like the fact i will have 2 complete motors incase something goes wrong with one, i can swap it out. i might eventuall go with a carb, but i dont know yet. im looking for 200hp n/a. then after that im off to suspension. i think ive got everything pretty much covered.. and anything else that i dont.. i guiess ill compensate for it..

 

The GSL-SE engine is a 6 port ? right ? because i have one that is waiting to get swapped in my 83 GS, I want to know what should i buy to swap the engine, I have a Dellorto carb, a racing beat complete exhaust system, a rb header, and a rb air filter... I thought to get the 13B ported to get near 200hp or even more, i don't know how many Horses i could have with my mods + a 13B ported in my car...

Max

 

GSL-SE is 6 port, yes. RB catalog states what carb is needed for what engine year.
If you can swap for $500 you've got a good deal... My project will cost over 2500, on a excel sheet ;-)

 

Ok, how much costs a good street port ? And what's the difference between a street port and a bridgeport ?..

Thanks

Max

 

I think you should swap a 13bTII. Leave everything stock and be happy with it. I would.

 

In a street-ported motor, the intake ports are enlarged and reshaped a bit, whereas in a bridge-ported motor an additional port is cut alongside the original port leaving a web or "bridge" of metal for the corner seal to ride on as the rotor passes, hence the name bridge-porting. Serious horsepower is available with bridge-porting, but the trade off is longevity and driveability. The bridges tend to develop cracks with time. There are two general versions of bridge-porting, the first uses both water seals intact and is the milder, more conservative of the two. The second involves cutting into the inner water seal area to shape the rotor housing so that the fuel "flows" from the added port into the chamber more smoothly, but then sealing becomes more of an issue. I like street-porting for cars that are going to be street driven regularly, myself. The bridge-ported motors don't idle well, they are loud if they have the proper exhaust system, they are just a pain to drive on the street. Just my 2 cents. -WG

 

haha, you i would LOVE to do that... if i could find the motor.. half the reason i want to do this is because it bolts up, and i can get a motor at the junk yard, where as tII motors are hard to find.. if i get a t2 motor, i need to redo the drivetrain because the 12a driveline cant handle the power of the motor. and i cant trust myself not to push the motor. its going to be hard enough keeping the motor's revs down when im breaking in the motor. maybe ill just get a rev limiter and set it at 4k

 

Thanks Wankelguy

 

I see that 89-91 is being referred to as the start of the 13b for the second generation; which started in 86'. This is probably just a minor oversight but I figured I would cover all bases.

Regardless, the 89-91 13b's were a bit better anyhow as they received a half point bump in compression and some other tidbits to bring them up to 160hp in stock from the 148hp (?) that the 86-88's had.

If it were me doing the swap, which I might be forced into unfortunatly, I would consider carbureting the 13b. While I have an 88' for a donor car with a blown engine, I wouldn't look forward to swapping the wiring harness and what not over onto the 85'.

Good luck with whatever you pick.

Kyle

 

I hadn't heard about the bridge port developing cracks along the corner seal's path. Makes sense, unfortunatly. Perhaps I should just put a massive peripheral port on it instead. Heh.

Kyle

 

dude, you seem to be doing your homework on this, and i commend you for that. however, you seem to be missing a few things, especially where the costs are concerned. the swap is going to cost you A LOT more than $500 to complete it, as you now have it planned - streetport, right? well, it's going to cost you about $800 out the box for your rebuild, and that's if you do it all yourself! and then there are some other parts to build reliability into it that you haven't mentioned.

if you can pick up a 13B, from any year, do it! the years don't matter all that much. you seem obsessed with the '89-'91 motors - and though i agree that they are probably the best starting point, in the end, you're probably looking at maybe 8-10 HP difference due to the higher compression ratio - unless you swap the whole intake and ECU, so everything works as Mazda designed it. all i'm saying is to keep doing what you're doing, and research.

however, one last point - again, i'm not trying to dissuade you from the 13B. it's torquier - no doubts, but i think you might have skewed view of the power difference between the 12A and 13B. the bottomline is, tit for tat, the 12A is only going to fall about 30-40 HP short of a 13B - no matter what!

 

A LOT Torquier. And if you keep the working 6 port actuators and sleeves in, it will feel like a V8 in comparison to a 12A's torque.

This is more noticeable in daily driving as opposed to drag racing, BTW.

 

Cracking bridges are more of an issure on turbo engines because of the increased mechanical and thermal stress. I've personally never heard of it happening on an n/a engine unless the bridge has been cut really thin.

 

30-40 horses is alot.. to me atleast.. im definately going with a 13b. im going to try and get either a gsl-se motor, or a 89-91 motor, i header the 86-88 motors have badly designed apex seals and i dont really want to replace them. as far as the rebuild, i have considered a rebuild kit.. i guess it depends on how many miles the motor has on it. my dad said he rebuild a 12a before, and used to old seals and never had a problem, but i dont want to take that chance so i might pull a rebuild kit off of ebay (see them go for like 4-500 sometimes.

i have been doing alot of research, and thats was the reason i tried to start this thread, because i wanted to hear about anything i might run into that i havent already thought about..

torque is somehting i want alot of.. and straight out.. i hear 13b's are ALOT torquier that 12a's and i believe it from what my car has right now. since im a high school student.. i dont have alot of money to throw around, andi think it would be cool to try and pull all that power out of my 12a, but i cant do it as easy as with a 13b. plus i like the fact i will have 2 engines that bolt the the same tranny, so if i have a problem with the motor, i can put my old one back in.. and if i have the time/money, i can build up my 12a since it will be out of the car.

i have a question about the oil pan. i know your supposed to use a gsl-se oil pan, but is it possible to just beat the fc oil pan to make it fit? i mean its just $35, but thast money i could put somewhere else..