13b Into First Gen
05-21-08, 07:40 PM
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13b Into First Gen
Hey all. I was wondering if anyone has put a 13b into a first gen before? Will this mount up or will I need to make custom mounts? What about a tranny from a second gen, will it fit in a first gen with the 13b? I have a freshly rebuit 13b that I'll be using a draw thru turbo system with a holley 750. I'm a machinist and owner of a state of the art machine shop and would like some feedback before I roll up my sleeves and get this thing started. Thanks in advance!
Michael
Michael
05-21-08, 07:56 PM
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Bro before these guys start to rag on you .... Have you read any of the rules.... Or the section that says READ THIS BEFORE POSTING...... It's in the FAQ section.... Good luck
05-21-08, 08:07 PM
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The 2 main parts are: make sure you use the front cover from the 12A, and use a GSL-SE oil pan or buy one from either racing beat or mazdatrix. There's other things too, but this is just off the top of my head. Yes, for the most part it will bolt in. Now, I don't know if you will need to do this or not, but I had to use some shears/ tin snips to cut about 1 - 1.5" back from the opening for the shifter because the extra length will push the tranny back. Fortunately there are an extra set of bolt holes there for the trans to mount for bolting in a 13b.
05-21-08, 08:17 PM
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Where can I read the part about reading this before posting??? 2Lucky2tha7 thanks for your info. I appreciate it!
05-21-08, 09:11 PM
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05-21-08, 09:43 PM
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Hey Dude, welcome to the forum. Forgive these guys. This question gets asked at least once a week so some people get tired of answering it.
In the first generation, the 84-85 GSL-SE came with a fuel injected 13b. This is possibly the easiest swap because it's already coming from a first gen so you can scavange any parts you need from the donor car to make it work. It makes it as close to "bolt in" as you can get, though the wiring will give you a bit of trouble, probably not nearly as much as the other 13b swaps.
The next option is a 13b from an FC (Second Gen). The main things that get in the way of the *physical* mounting of an FC 13b are the steering linkage and the fact that the FC engines have their mounts at the midpoint of the engine instead of the front cover. There are two ways to deal with this for mounting the engine - 1. You can get the front cover from any FB (First Gen) engine along with the Oil Pan from a GSL-SE 13b or 2. You can switch to the ReSpeed Rack and Pinion steering rack conversion which takes the steering out from under the engine, and fabricate appropriate side mounts to mount the FC 13b the way it mounts in its original config.
The more exotic and more difficult swaps are the FD (3rd Gen) and the RENESIS 13b from an Rx8. These are not very well documented (though there's one good write-up on the FD engine here somewhere) because they require a large amount of fabrication and custom work to make it happen.
Other things of note:
The easiest swap to double your power without doing a lot of modifying is a TII swap. This is taking a Turbo 13b from an FC and putting it in your car. Physically mounting it (as I covered earlier) is the easy part. Wiring, and getting it enough fuel are problems 2 and 3. Many people go with a stand-alone fuel/ignition controller or aftermarket ECU such as a Haltech, Microtech, MegaSquirt, etc... It gives you a lot of tuneability and control and in many ways it "simplifies" wiring because it's expected to be wired up from scratch, rather than trying to hack a 2nd Gen's ECU and sensors into an FB's wiring harness.
Don't forget fuel. A carb'd car has an average fuel pressure around 4psi. A fuel injected car will have an average fuel pressure of ten times that (40ish). You need a fuel pump as well as hoses and lines that can handle that, and you can't do that off a stock non-SE FB gas tank without running into fuel starvation problems up high. For an N/A it's not as big of an issue but for a turbo, it can be the difference between passing that truck at 7k in 3rd gear, or blowing an apex seal from running too lean. The 84-85 tanks are better suited, even the non-se ones from the Series 3 are much better than the tanks from the 79-83. If you've got some fab skills, you can take the fuel send and return tubes from a 2nd gen tank, cut them out and weld them into your FB tank. Someone on here did that with success.
In any case there's a lot that you can do, and as I often say, anything is possible with enough time, money and effort. Some swaps are easier than others. Some (like the TII) have been documented many times, and others like the RENESIS are limited to teaser pics of two cars who've done it but aren't sharing details.
Have fun. Read the FAQ (it's stickied at the top of this section) and the Archive (it's a subsection of this one).
Jon
In the first generation, the 84-85 GSL-SE came with a fuel injected 13b. This is possibly the easiest swap because it's already coming from a first gen so you can scavange any parts you need from the donor car to make it work. It makes it as close to "bolt in" as you can get, though the wiring will give you a bit of trouble, probably not nearly as much as the other 13b swaps.
The next option is a 13b from an FC (Second Gen). The main things that get in the way of the *physical* mounting of an FC 13b are the steering linkage and the fact that the FC engines have their mounts at the midpoint of the engine instead of the front cover. There are two ways to deal with this for mounting the engine - 1. You can get the front cover from any FB (First Gen) engine along with the Oil Pan from a GSL-SE 13b or 2. You can switch to the ReSpeed Rack and Pinion steering rack conversion which takes the steering out from under the engine, and fabricate appropriate side mounts to mount the FC 13b the way it mounts in its original config.
The more exotic and more difficult swaps are the FD (3rd Gen) and the RENESIS 13b from an Rx8. These are not very well documented (though there's one good write-up on the FD engine here somewhere) because they require a large amount of fabrication and custom work to make it happen.
Other things of note:
The easiest swap to double your power without doing a lot of modifying is a TII swap. This is taking a Turbo 13b from an FC and putting it in your car. Physically mounting it (as I covered earlier) is the easy part. Wiring, and getting it enough fuel are problems 2 and 3. Many people go with a stand-alone fuel/ignition controller or aftermarket ECU such as a Haltech, Microtech, MegaSquirt, etc... It gives you a lot of tuneability and control and in many ways it "simplifies" wiring because it's expected to be wired up from scratch, rather than trying to hack a 2nd Gen's ECU and sensors into an FB's wiring harness.
Don't forget fuel. A carb'd car has an average fuel pressure around 4psi. A fuel injected car will have an average fuel pressure of ten times that (40ish). You need a fuel pump as well as hoses and lines that can handle that, and you can't do that off a stock non-SE FB gas tank without running into fuel starvation problems up high. For an N/A it's not as big of an issue but for a turbo, it can be the difference between passing that truck at 7k in 3rd gear, or blowing an apex seal from running too lean. The 84-85 tanks are better suited, even the non-se ones from the Series 3 are much better than the tanks from the 79-83. If you've got some fab skills, you can take the fuel send and return tubes from a 2nd gen tank, cut them out and weld them into your FB tank. Someone on here did that with success.
In any case there's a lot that you can do, and as I often say, anything is possible with enough time, money and effort. Some swaps are easier than others. Some (like the TII) have been documented many times, and others like the RENESIS are limited to teaser pics of two cars who've done it but aren't sharing details.
Have fun. Read the FAQ (it's stickied at the top of this section) and the Archive (it's a subsection of this one).
Jon
05-21-08, 10:22 PM
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Even easier than the GSL-SE swap is an early 4-port 13B swap. Get a GSL-SE crossmember or a Racing Beat front mount bar and set up whatever carb you want to use and you're basically good to go. Oh, and you have to mod the fan shroud, too, if you want to keep it.
05-21-08, 10:30 PM
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Hey Dude, welcome to the forum. Forgive these guys. This question gets asked at least once a week so some people get tired of answering it.
In the first generation, the 84-85 GSL-SE came with a fuel injected 13b. This is possibly the easiest swap because it's already coming from a first gen so you can scavange any parts you need from the donor car to make it work. It makes it as close to "bolt in" as you can get, though the wiring will give you a bit of trouble, probably not nearly as much as the other 13b swaps.
The next option is a 13b from an FC (Second Gen). The main things that get in the way of the *physical* mounting of an FC 13b are the steering linkage and the fact that the FC engines have their mounts at the midpoint of the engine instead of the front cover. There are two ways to deal with this for mounting the engine - 1. You can get the front cover from any FB (First Gen) engine along with the Oil Pan from a GSL-SE 13b or 2. You can switch to the ReSpeed Rack and Pinion steering rack conversion which takes the steering out from under the engine, and fabricate appropriate side mounts to mount the FC 13b the way it mounts in its original config.
The more exotic and more difficult swaps are the FD (3rd Gen) and the RENESIS 13b from an Rx8. These are not very well documented (though there's one good write-up on the FD engine here somewhere) because they require a large amount of fabrication and custom work to make it happen.
Other things of note:
The easiest swap to double your power without doing a lot of modifying is a TII swap. This is taking a Turbo 13b from an FC and putting it in your car. Physically mounting it (as I covered earlier) is the easy part. Wiring, and getting it enough fuel are problems 2 and 3. Many people go with a stand-alone fuel/ignition controller or aftermarket ECU such as a Haltech, Microtech, MegaSquirt, etc... It gives you a lot of tuneability and control and in many ways it "simplifies" wiring because it's expected to be wired up from scratch, rather than trying to hack a 2nd Gen's ECU and sensors into an FB's wiring harness.
Don't forget fuel. A carb'd car has an average fuel pressure around 4psi. A fuel injected car will have an average fuel pressure of ten times that (40ish). You need a fuel pump as well as hoses and lines that can handle that, and you can't do that off a stock non-SE FB gas tank without running into fuel starvation problems up high. For an N/A it's not as big of an issue but for a turbo, it can be the difference between passing that truck at 7k in 3rd gear, or blowing an apex seal from running too lean. The 84-85 tanks are better suited, even the non-se ones from the Series 3 are much better than the tanks from the 79-83. If you've got some fab skills, you can take the fuel send and return tubes from a 2nd gen tank, cut them out and weld them into your FB tank. Someone on here did that with success.
In any case there's a lot that you can do, and as I often say, anything is possible with enough time, money and effort. Some swaps are easier than others. Some (like the TII) have been documented many times, and others like the RENESIS are limited to teaser pics of two cars who've done it but aren't sharing details.
Have fun. Read the FAQ (it's stickied at the top of this section) and the Archive (it's a subsection of this one).
Jon
In the first generation, the 84-85 GSL-SE came with a fuel injected 13b. This is possibly the easiest swap because it's already coming from a first gen so you can scavange any parts you need from the donor car to make it work. It makes it as close to "bolt in" as you can get, though the wiring will give you a bit of trouble, probably not nearly as much as the other 13b swaps.
The next option is a 13b from an FC (Second Gen). The main things that get in the way of the *physical* mounting of an FC 13b are the steering linkage and the fact that the FC engines have their mounts at the midpoint of the engine instead of the front cover. There are two ways to deal with this for mounting the engine - 1. You can get the front cover from any FB (First Gen) engine along with the Oil Pan from a GSL-SE 13b or 2. You can switch to the ReSpeed Rack and Pinion steering rack conversion which takes the steering out from under the engine, and fabricate appropriate side mounts to mount the FC 13b the way it mounts in its original config.
The more exotic and more difficult swaps are the FD (3rd Gen) and the RENESIS 13b from an Rx8. These are not very well documented (though there's one good write-up on the FD engine here somewhere) because they require a large amount of fabrication and custom work to make it happen.
Other things of note:
The easiest swap to double your power without doing a lot of modifying is a TII swap. This is taking a Turbo 13b from an FC and putting it in your car. Physically mounting it (as I covered earlier) is the easy part. Wiring, and getting it enough fuel are problems 2 and 3. Many people go with a stand-alone fuel/ignition controller or aftermarket ECU such as a Haltech, Microtech, MegaSquirt, etc... It gives you a lot of tuneability and control and in many ways it "simplifies" wiring because it's expected to be wired up from scratch, rather than trying to hack a 2nd Gen's ECU and sensors into an FB's wiring harness.
Don't forget fuel. A carb'd car has an average fuel pressure around 4psi. A fuel injected car will have an average fuel pressure of ten times that (40ish). You need a fuel pump as well as hoses and lines that can handle that, and you can't do that off a stock non-SE FB gas tank without running into fuel starvation problems up high. For an N/A it's not as big of an issue but for a turbo, it can be the difference between passing that truck at 7k in 3rd gear, or blowing an apex seal from running too lean. The 84-85 tanks are better suited, even the non-se ones from the Series 3 are much better than the tanks from the 79-83. If you've got some fab skills, you can take the fuel send and return tubes from a 2nd gen tank, cut them out and weld them into your FB tank. Someone on here did that with success.
In any case there's a lot that you can do, and as I often say, anything is possible with enough time, money and effort. Some swaps are easier than others. Some (like the TII) have been documented many times, and others like the RENESIS are limited to teaser pics of two cars who've done it but aren't sharing details.
Have fun. Read the FAQ (it's stickied at the top of this section) and the Archive (it's a subsection of this one).
Jon
Last edited by vipernicus42; 05-21-08 at 10:37 PM.
05-21-08, 10:46 PM
#12
Those are hard on the turbo but good luck with that.
My '81 S model has a 13B with a 12A front cover and side plates, GSL-SE rotor housings and GSL-SE oil pan. The Racing Beat front mount bar allows a 13B to fit in a 12A chassis. PercentSevenC's car has a GSL-SE crossmember and a stock front mount bar. Mine has a GSL-SE tank and will eventually be used for fuel infection. Both our 13Bs are currently carbureted.
My '81 S model has a 13B with a 12A front cover and side plates, GSL-SE rotor housings and GSL-SE oil pan. The Racing Beat front mount bar allows a 13B to fit in a 12A chassis. PercentSevenC's car has a GSL-SE crossmember and a stock front mount bar. Mine has a GSL-SE tank and will eventually be used for fuel infection. Both our 13Bs are currently carbureted.
05-21-08, 10:54 PM
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Those are hard on the turbo but good luck with that.
My '81 S model has a 13B with a 12A front cover and side plates, GSL-SE rotor housings and GSL-SE oil pan. The Racing Beat front mount bar allows a 13B to fit in a 12A chassis. PercentSevenC's car has a GSL-SE crossmember and a stock front mount bar. Mine has a GSL-SE tank and will eventually be used for fuel infection. Both our 13Bs are currently carbureted.
My '81 S model has a 13B with a 12A front cover and side plates, GSL-SE rotor housings and GSL-SE oil pan. The Racing Beat front mount bar allows a 13B to fit in a 12A chassis. PercentSevenC's car has a GSL-SE crossmember and a stock front mount bar. Mine has a GSL-SE tank and will eventually be used for fuel infection. Both our 13Bs are currently carbureted.
What do you mean that those, (turbo prespoolers) are hard on the turbo? Are you refering to a air assisted prespooler or something different???
05-21-08, 11:13 PM
#15
So theres air assisted prespoolers? Awesome, I thought you were talking about sumthing like an Anti lag system with the whole ignite fuel in the manifold to get the turbo spooling up faster setup.
05-21-08, 11:34 PM
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05-21-08, 11:37 PM
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It's really quite simple really. Give me a minute and I'll explain it to ya'll. I'm at work and I gotta setup a 5axis cnc.
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