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Vote now, vote often, the bastards are getting into our shit again

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Old Dec 31, 2008 | 02:49 PM
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Vote now, vote often, the bastards are getting into our **** again

The damned politicians are sticking their noses in our business again.

This pisses me off royally, try managing the damned businesses instead of taking away out favorites.

I received this email from Summit Racing today.

Steve

Add news@summitracing.com to your Safe Sender list to ensure delivery of Summit Racing email. Unsubscribe here if you no longer wish to receive email from us.

Important News from SEMA

Dear Fellow Enthusiast,

As a SEMA Member Company, we have received an Urgent Legislative Action Alert from the association. You may be interested in this legislative alert and the possible impact it will have on your hobby.

The Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA) is a non-profit trade association composed of more than 6,800 member companies involved in all aspects of the automotive industry, from manufacturers to car clubs and race teams.

The SEMA Action Network (SAN) protects your hobby from unfair or unnecessary legislation on national and local levels. Through distribution of information and the collective voice of automotive enthusiasts and businesses, the SEMA Action Network has successfully impacted legislation concerning scrappage laws, equipment standards, registration classifications, emissions regulations, and more.

The following information is directly from SEMA. If you would like to contact the lawmaker, follow the instructions in the alert.

Thank you for your time, Your Friends at Summit Racing Equipment


Oppose Federal

Washington lawmakers are drafting a large economic stimulus package to help create jobs and rebuild infrastructure. They want to include a nationwide scrappage program which would give U.S. tax dollars to consumers who turn-in older cars to have them crushed, as a misguided attempt to spur new car sales. The lawmakers need to scrap this idea.

The stimulus package is being drafted right now. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) wants to introduce the bill on January 6 and have it approved by Congress by January 20, so that President Obama can sign it into law after he is inaugurated.

Contact House Speaker Nancy Pelosi IMMEDIATELY To Oppose Cash for Clunkers! Call: 202-225-0100 Click here to send an electronic message: http://speaker.house.gov/contact/

Talking Points Feel free to use any of the statements below as a starting point for your message to Speaker Pelosi.

* I am [calling/writing] to urge lawmakers not to include a “Cash for Clunkers” provision in the economic stimulus bill. Owners who turn in vehicles for crushing would receive a "minimal" payment to purchase a new car. This is a misguided attempt to spur car sales and claim that the country’s air quality or fleet fuel mileage is being improved.

* I work for [company name] located in [city and state]. My company is part of the specialty automotive industry, an industry which enables consumers to enhance their vehicle’s appearance, performance, comfort, convenience and safety. “Cash for Clunkers” programs deny our small businesses the availability of older cars necessary to develop and market their products and services. The programs will hurt my company and our customers.

* “Cash for Clunkers” programs threaten enthusiasts nationwide with the loss of valuable parts and parts-cars for repair, restoration, and customization projects. The programs also risk destroying classic, historic and special-interest vehicles, our American heritage.

* Cars turned in for scrappage often barely run, or are rarely-driven second or third vehicles that have a minimal impact on overall fuel economy or emissions.

* “Cash for Clunkers” programs will reduce the availability of affordable transportation and repair parts used by low-income drivers. It will also compete with the Salvation Army, the Purple Heart and other charities that rely on vehicle donations to raise money.

* “Cash for Clunkers” ignores better policy options. If Congress wants to act, support for repair and upgrade is a better choice and a win-win for consumers, dealers, manufacturers and repair shops. Significant emissions and fuel economy improvements can be achieved in older vehicles through relatively simple and inexpensive means: repaired/replaced exhaust systems, tune-ups, etc.

* We hope we can count on you to reject “Cash for Clunkers.” Thank you for your consideration on this very important matter.

If you choose to send a message to Speaker Pelosi, please send a copy of your message to SEMA also: E-mail: briand@sema.org Fax: 202/783-6024
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Old Dec 31, 2008 | 03:18 PM
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Wow. That's the worst idea I've seen in a Looong time. That would be dumb as hell to do. That's like throwing away.... hell, ...like the constitution, just because it's old
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Old Dec 31, 2008 | 03:38 PM
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i dont see what is so bad about crushing old crappy cars.
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Old Dec 31, 2008 | 04:23 PM
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This will make my mint 84/85 GSL daily drivers even more valuable, sounds like a good idea to me. I'll have the last copy. Go Nancy!

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Old Dec 31, 2008 | 04:33 PM
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no sense in crushing the cars..its like putting an old pet down just because it doesnt fit in anymore....
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Old Dec 31, 2008 | 05:43 PM
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i dont see what is so bad about crushing old crappy cars.
Are you being sarcastic here?

There is A LOT wrong with that.

Think of an old rusted out -SE that people found and got for $100.

To us, that is worth a hell of a lot more than $100, and they are getting a tiny amount of money to scrap it. It makes the prices on everything for older cars rise.

Now scrapping an early 90's escort with 179,000 on it and crustier than an old mopar is fine with me.
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Old Dec 31, 2008 | 07:58 PM
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They should scrap FC's and preserve the FB's!
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Old Dec 31, 2008 | 08:32 PM
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No, they should scrap non-rotors only :P
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Old Dec 31, 2008 | 08:43 PM
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ok heres my 2 cents
ITS A GOOD IDEA, what you mean they are trying to get new sales,
Come on people be realistic, the fact of the matter is that we are screwing up the world with the crap we do to it.
So what if someone finds an old crappy rusted out rx7, if you want it then you buy it other wise any one should buy it for what ever amount and let them sell it to get crushed for what ever amount.
Cars of today are gone man, this will incourage people buying the newer cars with better fuel economy and over all better for the enviroment.
The fact of the matter is the enviroment is more important to me than keeping a rusted old beat up rx7.
There are still a fair share for sale, and around.
We need to get over our whining about i cant keep this and that,,,, there are more important things in this world to worry about
Like A WAR going on put your effort in doing something about that....
JUST my2 cents
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Old Dec 31, 2008 | 09:32 PM
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California has tried, and abandoned due to expense & ineffectiveness, this exact same program, twice.

Of course, it was done here supposedly for smog purposes.

Now that such foolish experiments in market manipulation and social engineering have literally bankrupted this state ($43 billion in the red), San Fran Nan and her cohorts cannot wait to raid the US Treasury.

Government has no business meddling with private property and independant business to this degree.

Just MY 2 cents...
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Old Dec 31, 2008 | 10:55 PM
  #11  
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why crush old cars. I love saying my rx7 is a 83. I think they should only crush the sunfires and cavs because if you get one you will be geting another one in a month because the body are rusted out and all the kids that own them are ******. Lets say like you find a very rare car and its all rusted out and its worth $30,000 restored. Then when you bring it home. They say we have to crush it because its old and rusty then you lose money.

for the reason GM Ford and Dodge are going down because people want cars non mexican made. manly GM and Ford.
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Old Dec 31, 2008 | 11:40 PM
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in texas we have salvage yards you sell your car to them they part it out for 6-8 weeks (usually striped to nothing by then) then crushed. now thats how to do it.
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Old Jan 1, 2009 | 10:33 AM
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i think you all are missing the point. they arent going to crush YOUR car.. its for people who want to get rid of the rusted *** pos in their back yard and get a credit towards a new car which would help everyone i.e.: the earth, jobs, dealerships, everyone. you dont have to scrap your car this isnt a program that is gonna come along and take everyone's old beat up clunkers. most people who have older rx7's know that they are valuable to someone and would probably never crush it. and like someone else said, that just makes all of ours even more valuable.
:
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Old Jan 1, 2009 | 05:51 PM
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what this country needs is for people to maintain their old cars, not buy new ones, not take out loans where the the asset (the car) declines in value faster than the principle of the loan (loans under water). Then people default on the loans and we have subprime loans.

Recessions are realignment of resources. When people purchase inefficient luxury SUV's (remember the tax credit for SUV's over $50,000), it is also a squandering of resources. Resources that need to be put to use in better ways.

Manufacturing a new car uses more energy, and resources (steel) than what is needed to maintain an old car. This is why a new car will require a $300 monthly payment while an old car can be maintained for $300 parts an entire year.
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Old Jan 1, 2009 | 06:28 PM
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yeah well tell that to the people that come into my shop with their old cars and dont wanna pay the money to fix them.
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Old Jan 1, 2009 | 07:27 PM
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If someone can't afford a car, they shouldn't have one.

There's no justification for the taxpayers (meaning, you and me) to have to subsidize someone who couldn't afford to maintain their OLD car, into getting a NEW car that they also won't be able to afford to maintain, or insure, or pay the taxes on. Insurance and taxes on a new car are several times those on an old car.

Why should my tax money go to giving someone a "credit" for throwing away their rusty old POS, when I don't even get the POS in exchange?
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Old Jan 2, 2009 | 05:56 PM
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Well I am very bored and thought I'd contribute to this thread by copying the lastest "Benzine" written by Ben Hsu, editor of Japanese Nostalgic Car Magazine in their second issue. For all those who have free time to read this long post I hope it stimulates more discussion to this interesting topic.

Earlier this year Dan and I were up in the San Francisco area covering the Motoring J Style show. Driving through a slightly run-down area, we noticed a billboard displaying the unmistakable profile of a Datsun B210. "Hey, cool!" was my first reaction. It's not often you see some old J-tin prominently brandished across a signpost.

At second glance, though, the ad was less flattering. Ominous black balloons floated up from the Datsun's tailpipe, past the words "Healthy cars pollute less" and a website address, DriveHealthy.com

Turns out, the website and billboard are part of a campaign launched by California in April 2008, aiming to reduce pollution generated by old cars. It intends to do so by offering certain owners who have failed the state's notoriously stringent smog checks either $500 towards repairs on the offending vehicle, or up to $1,000 to "retire" it altogether. Retire? We know what this really means: a thinly veiled excuse to scrap old cars.

California isn't the only state with such a measure. Texas implemented a similar buyback program this January with vouchers going as high as $3,500. Owners there have been handing over their old cars at the rate of nearly 1,600 per month since their program's inception, according to The Detroit News. Local governments in the areas of Canada have carried out similar efforts as well.
We immediately wrote about it on the JNC website and before long readers began relaying their stories. Billboards had been sighted all over California, and some JNCers had even received state letters offering cash in exchange for their pride and joy.

Don't assume all of these cars are worthless buckets either. Here are some of California's own eligibility requirements:
- All doors, hood, side and/or quarter panels, and at least one bumper present
- Dashboard, driver's seat, exhaust system, windshield, and at least one side glass present.
- At least one headlight, one taillight, and one brake light present.
- Vehicle must be driven to an approved dismantler under its own power.
- Vehicle engine starts readily through ordinary means without the use of starting fluids or external booster batteries.
- Vehicle drivability is not affected by any body, steering, or suspension damage.

Forgive me, but any car that meets these conditions would be rolling treasure for the average Japanese car restorer. California appears to see no irony in saying on the exact same page, "Inspections will be performed on the items listed below at a CAP-approved dismantler." Inspecting a car to see if it's good enough to be dismantled? I've owned at least a half dozen cars that wouldn't even be acceptable to California as scrap.

Obviously, we don't expect every old car owner to undergo a painstaking restoration. But now, instead of selling the car to someone who might restore it, owners may choose to scrap it for a quick buck and less hassle. Not to mention even cars beyond repair can be a good source for parts.

Look, we're all for keeping the air clean and making sure our planet doesn't turn into a giant sauna. However, these programs may not be as clean as they appear anyway. Unless the person that scraps their jalopy plans on biking or taking a bus, they will inevitably have to buy a new car. And once you factor in the environmental costs of manufacturing that shiny new ride, the old heap doesn't looks so bad anymore.

There aren't a lot of accurate figures out there on exactly how much energy is used to manufacture a new ca, because automakers typically don't release such data. Suffice it to say getting a lump of iron ore from a mountainside to your local showroom is no small task.

Sustainability engineer Pablo Päster has used the Argonne National Laboratory's GREET model to calculate that the energy used to produce a Toyota Highlander is about 107 million BTUs. The formula accounts for everything - glass rubber, plastics, suppliers and even fuel used in transport.

Now, as an exercise, let's assume that your nostalgic is fully operational and that EPA fuel economy ratings are accurate. A typical Japanese four-cylinder from the 70s like the 18R-G in a Toyota Celica, gets an average of 27 miles per gallon if driven equally on city streets and highways. A gallon of gasoline contains about 124,000 BTUs. Therefore, because of the initial manufacturing expenditure, you'd need to buy a new car that gets 32 miles per gallon and drive it for 10 years before it broke even with the Celica. The average new car sold in America gets only 22 miles per gallon.

Of course this isn't a perfect calculation. It doesn't take into account that a new car probably emits fewer greenhouse gases than an old one. But, it also assumes that an old car owner is driving the national average of 15,000 miles per year. It's impossible to consider every scenario, but the point is that the difference is not as great as you might expect.

What's worse, buyback programs are gleefully supported by the Alliance of Automotive Manufacturers, a lobbying group made up of 10 companies, BMW, Detroit's Big Three, Mazda, Mercedes, Mitsubishi, Porsche, Toyota and VW - that happen to have an entire business model based on selling you new cars. It appears that our lawmakers are either fooled by the idea of an even trade between old and new cars or have bought into the industry racket. This is just the latest example of how they show, at best, indifference to the old car hobby.

Fortunately, there are organizations like SEMA, the Specialty Equipment Market Association, to represent enthusiasts in issues like this. It's an uphill battle though, and one we are not likely to win unless we join the larger automotive community.

We hope that these programs will cease, but if they don't we have an alternative to recommend. In one of our writeups on this topic, we suggested that if automakers were interested in the environment, they should offer bolt-in engine swap kits. Think about it: engine mounts, bellhousings and driveshafts to drop a clean, modern 1ZZ-GE and a 6-speed transmission into the old Toyota of your choice. It wouldn't cost them much to produce, and we would have the best of both worlds - nostalgic style and low-emissions power.
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Old Jan 2, 2009 | 09:36 PM
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That list of minimum requirements for the car sounds suspiciously like it's intended to make sure the recycler gets a bunch of sellable parts pretty much for free, doesn't it?

The other thing not mentioned here that has been a factor with California's buyback (and even smog assistance) programs in the past: they "means-test" the limits and payouts. In other words, if you make above a certain amount of money, no soup for you.

Oh, and that $500 assistance on repairs? Do-it-yourselfers need not apply. It only is available if you pay a certified shop to do the work for you... at shop rates.

How much auto repair does $500 buy you?
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Old Jan 2, 2009 | 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by borinquen7
ok heres my 2 cents
ITS A GOOD IDEA, what you mean they are trying to get new sales,
Come on people be realistic, the fact of the matter is that we are screwing up the world with the crap we do to it.
So what if someone finds an old crappy rusted out rx7, if you want it then you buy it other wise any one should buy it for what ever amount and let them sell it to get crushed for what ever amount.
Cars of today are gone man, this will incourage people buying the newer cars with better fuel economy and over all better for the enviroment.
The fact of the matter is the enviroment is more important to me than keeping a rusted old beat up rx7.
There are still a fair share for sale, and around.
We need to get over our whining about i cant keep this and that,,,, there are more important things in this world to worry about
Like A WAR going on put your effort in doing something about that....
JUST my2 cents
Think about what you are saying here.

Someone with a rusted beater should trade it in for say $500 so they can buy a brand new superwhatchamacallit for $25K. Please explain how the hell can they do that if they are currently driving a POS as the families sole source of transport.

May I remind you that people are being laid off left and right, why would you get into debt for a car you can't afford now. Especially when you are thinking, which of these companies will be around to honor the warranty in 12 months time.

Now if you take your own backyard hulk to a crusher you will get most of $500 for it anyway, but for those who have been driving junkers through necessity do you think the $500 will make the new car (a) affordable, (b) necessary, (c) advisable or (d) sensible in the current economic climate.

Besides if you part it on eBay you will make more than $500 and help those who treasure the old cars keep the hobby alive.

What business is it of the the damned Gubmint, let me advise you on that, they get money for elections from Insurance companies, Financiers, Car manufacturers and Unions. Who do you think would benefit most from this deal, see the attached list.

Better fuel economy.....think about that, the 70's Corollas got 41 mpg, what does a new car get, well the GM hybrid Malibu gets 24mpg.

As for the war, I don't see the connection, did you get distracted.

End of rant
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Old Jan 3, 2009 | 09:04 AM
  #20  
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so wonderful idea... lets all keep our old cars so that no one ever buys any new ones. Then we can explain to the hundreds of thousands of auto workers how they are supposed to go out and get a new job.
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Old Jan 3, 2009 | 10:02 AM
  #21  
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Hmmm.... How 'bout the service sector? Or else they could invest in education and training to make themselves more competitive in today's market.

Well, OK, maybe only all those sales people hanging out around the GM, Buick, Chevrolet, Pontiac, Saturn, Cadillac, GMC, Hummer, Saab, Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge, Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Volvo and, Gasp!, Mazda show rooms need to be in the service sector, at least this year.

Take their dead weight salaries, along with the auto exec salaries (graciously offered already by the CEOs because they are so filthy rich it doesn't really matter) and we tax payers wouldn't need to be bailing out the big three one more time.

Then we can take a look at the hundreds of thousands of auto workers to make sure they are worth keeping.

In the mean time, I'll be happily driving my 84 GSL.

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Old Jan 3, 2009 | 10:40 AM
  #22  
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I have seen lots of great points of view in this thread, i love it. and not to be rude to this person but this is the most random **** ever....
Originally Posted by borinquen7
ok heres my 2 cents
ITS A GOOD IDEA, what you mean they are trying to get new sales,
Come on people be realistic, the fact of the matter is that we are screwing up the world with the crap we do to it.
So what if someone finds an old crappy rusted out rx7, if you want it then you buy it other wise any one should buy it for what ever amount and let them sell it to get crushed for what ever amount.
Cars of today are gone man, this will incourage people buying the newer cars with better fuel economy and over all better for the enviroment.
The fact of the matter is the enviroment is more important to me than keeping a rusted old beat up rx7.
There are still a fair share for sale, and around.
We need to get over our whining about i cant keep this and that,,,, there are more important things in this world to worry about
Like A WAR going on put your effort in doing something about that....
JUST my2 cents
w/out even getting to full detail about what you're saying (because someone else has already pointed it out) ..think about it, you're complaining about people not taking care of the environment, yet you drive a rotary....kinda contradicting if you ask me, and that neglects your post lol. anyways let's keep up the good points here, i like this discussion.
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Old Jan 3, 2009 | 11:15 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by chris_g
\Now scrapping an early 90's escort with 179,000 on it and crustier than an old mopar is fine with me.
Wait a minute, my daily driver is a '95 Escort with 172k. It still runs fine and it cost $400. I don't plan on getting rid of it anytime soon, since it is cheap, reliable transportation. Hell, my Escort cost me as much as ONE car payment on my old car.

For the record, however, if they offered me a nice sum of money to turn it in so I could buy a newer, better car, I sure as hell would.

As a classic car enthusiast, I don't care much for ANY program that encourages the crushing of classic cars. It will only make parts harder to find, let alone complete project cars.
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Old Jan 3, 2009 | 11:29 AM
  #24  
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If old cars being kept on the road actually had ANY impact on the Big Three, I would consider the "auto worker jobs" argument... yet there have been just as many if not more old cars on the road for decades, and it never had any sizeable impact on the Big Three. Lease programs run by the Big Three that have flooded the used-car market with 3-year-old cars have had a far larger impact on their sales of new cars.

This is being used as an artificial argument to try to perform social engineering.

Considering the way the Big Three have been losing market share to higher quality, less expensive Japanese (and even Korean!) automakers, anyone with limited money getting this cash for junking their old car would be far more likely to buy a Kia, Scion, or Honda than they would a Ford or Chevy, wouldn't they?

If the gov't tries to make these credits usable only with the Big Three, they'll be sued stupid by the other automakers... and the gov't will not win, under our own laws. And we'll have to pick up the tab, too.

If they give the money out as cash, the lion's share of any that actually goes to buying a car will go to non-US automakers, based on current market share, further crippling our balance of trade, while creating larger budget deficits.

Lose-lose situation, paid for out of our pockets - - typical of Miz Pelosi.
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Old Jan 3, 2009 | 12:10 PM
  #25  
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"you're complaining about people not taking care of the environment, yet you drive a rotary....kinda contradicting if you ask me"

I must object. My 84 GSL is both politically and polluctantly correct.

Shoot, I'm getting better MPG than 80% of the cars I commute into Atlanta with. And yeah, they only made The White One once, back in 1984. She's survived on recycled parts ever since. Saves a lot of insults on the environment, as mentioned in some of the posts above.

All this without a cat. Share the Rotary Love!

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