Group B info
02-12-11, 08:31 PM
#1
Old [Sch|F]ool
Thread Starter
Group B info
As some know, Mazda Rally Team Europe (MRTE) built 20 RX-7s for themselves and privateers. I've been collecting information on them for a while, but this info is very difficult to find.
Group B was for two seat vehicles of a minimum 200 units produced. The original homologation called for 13B-engined models with rack and pinion steering. I don't know if the steering was an accepted variance from the production vehicles, but I wonder if the GSL-SE wasn't part of a scheme to homologate the engine for the RX-7.
Anyway, the homologation is number B255 and this is one of the documents that I am still looking for.
Group B allowed for a futher twenty "Evolution" models (examples: the 205 T16 or Audi Sport that had the huge wings were Evolution) and for the RX-7 this meant, among other things, equal/parallel rear suspension links and engine setback.
I'd like to point out that at no time did any of the MRTE vehicles have all wheel drive, turbocharging, or engines other than the 13B. Other people have made rally or hillclimb cars like this, but the MRTE-driven FIA homologation was for a rear wheel drive, naturally aspirated vehicle. This is not unusual, as most Group B cars were two wheel drive and a small number of them were naturally aspirated. You just don't hear much about, say, the Group B Daihatsu. The winningest GpB car actually was rear wheel drive: the Lancia 037.
Today's round of links:
http://books.google.com/books?id=UDH...page&q&f=false
http://www.rally24.com/rally-cars-fo...-car-3071.html
http://www.safemotorsport.no/prosjek...-rallybil.aspx
I'm always looking for more info. These are only the links that I haven't posted in, BTW...
Group B was for two seat vehicles of a minimum 200 units produced. The original homologation called for 13B-engined models with rack and pinion steering. I don't know if the steering was an accepted variance from the production vehicles, but I wonder if the GSL-SE wasn't part of a scheme to homologate the engine for the RX-7.
Anyway, the homologation is number B255 and this is one of the documents that I am still looking for.
Group B allowed for a futher twenty "Evolution" models (examples: the 205 T16 or Audi Sport that had the huge wings were Evolution) and for the RX-7 this meant, among other things, equal/parallel rear suspension links and engine setback.
I'd like to point out that at no time did any of the MRTE vehicles have all wheel drive, turbocharging, or engines other than the 13B. Other people have made rally or hillclimb cars like this, but the MRTE-driven FIA homologation was for a rear wheel drive, naturally aspirated vehicle. This is not unusual, as most Group B cars were two wheel drive and a small number of them were naturally aspirated. You just don't hear much about, say, the Group B Daihatsu. The winningest GpB car actually was rear wheel drive: the Lancia 037.
Today's round of links:
http://books.google.com/books?id=UDH...page&q&f=false
http://www.rally24.com/rally-cars-fo...-car-3071.html
http://www.safemotorsport.no/prosjek...-rallybil.aspx
I'm always looking for more info. These are only the links that I haven't posted in, BTW...
02-13-11, 01:30 PM
#3
Old [Sch|F]ool
Thread Starter
I have both DVDs. Nothing of consequence about the RX-7, unfortunately.
Really, the second DVD is almost exactly the same as the first one, only with a different narrator (I think Tony Pond did the first one? been a while) and an added section with footage of Stig Blomqvist driving various cars from David Sutton's private collection. Interesting trivia: Stig was the RS200's original owner. You can look it up at the registry at www.rs200.org (NOT .com!)
Really, the second DVD is almost exactly the same as the first one, only with a different narrator (I think Tony Pond did the first one? been a while) and an added section with footage of Stig Blomqvist driving various cars from David Sutton's private collection. Interesting trivia: Stig was the RS200's original owner. You can look it up at the registry at www.rs200.org (NOT .com!)
02-14-11, 10:59 AM
#5
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,816
Received 2,586 Likes
on
1,837 Posts
have you run across a parts list? they had a comp axle housing that among other things move the upper link attachment back so that they were more parallel.
and is this group B in the US or just europe? i ask as the rod millen cars are more well known
and is this group B in the US or just europe? i ask as the rod millen cars are more well known
02-14-11, 12:39 PM
#6
Old [Sch|F]ool
Thread Starter
Part of why I want the homologation paperwork is that they detail parts and procedures. I have homologation papers for A2 Golfs and various other mid-late 80's cars, they're very nice. A little useless if you want to actually buy parts since even if the parts are still available, the FIA stamp adds a whole lot to the bottom line. But a 10x.750" rotor is a 10x.750" rotor and I don't care about no steenking homologation.
As for the rear axle, interesting story about that...
As for the rear axle, interesting story about that...
02-14-11, 02:41 PM
#8
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,816
Received 2,586 Likes
on
1,837 Posts
Part of why I want the homologation paperwork is that they detail parts and procedures. I have homologation papers for A2 Golfs and various other mid-late 80's cars, they're very nice. A little useless if you want to actually buy parts since even if the parts are still available, the FIA stamp adds a whole lot to the bottom line. But a 10x.750" rotor is a 10x.750" rotor and I don't care about no steenking homologation.
As for the rear axle, interesting story about that...
As for the rear axle, interesting story about that...
1. racers are dumb
2. they got rid of the steering box, see #1
3. its just a typical MFR PP engine setup, i think that's the dry sump front cover, which doesn't use the front mount, i think it gets brackets on the front iron, but not sure.
4. oil cooler looks to be in the wing, great place for it, if you hit a curb with the wing, you generally have bigger problems...
5. MFR "muffler" out back
6. radiator ducting is custom, but radiator is just the normal comp part
7. the strut towers don't look stock to me either, but then again they do. something happened there, like the rebuilt it with thicker metal or something
8. the road racing comp stuff converts to adjustable length rear trailing arms, the lowers get heim joints the uppers stay rubber. it looks like the car in the pics has something else.
9. ive never seen a good pic of the road racing rear axle/brake setup, the FIA homologation paper does show a girling caliper like that. the assembled pic is different. knowing that the road race comp part is from 79 and they were bending THOSE @2500lbs, i'd bet the rally cars have something different/stronger
10. ive heard of Mr Wantanabe, and met Mr Kijima. Mr Kijima doesn't speak english, but he's really been one of the best chassis dynamicists in the world for a couple of decades.
03-30-11, 07:50 PM
#9
Old [Sch|F]ool
Thread Starter
I haven't found the Group B homologation paperwork yet, but I did find a copy of the Group A paperwork.
Interesting: The port runner diameters and opening dimensions are spelled out. Group A RX-7s (12A engine) were bridge ported! And the paperwork has a dimensioned outline for the port. Far out.
Just to satisfy your curiosity, the homologated bridge port had a main opening that was 51mm high, the bridge was 4.5mm thick, and the eyebrow was 7.5mm wide and 41mm tall. Not very big, but decently sized. The eyebrow closed about 5-10 degrees before the main port did, going by the ol' eyeball gauge. The exhaust ports were 32mm by 38mm with 10mm radiuses in the corners. No specification as to *where* the exhaust ports are, while the intake port does seem to have a spec as to where it's put.
And the stuff I really wanted... the VOs for the brakes and such. 38mmx4 calipers at all four wheels?, with 266mm rotors? Neat. I can *do* that.
Interesting: The port runner diameters and opening dimensions are spelled out. Group A RX-7s (12A engine) were bridge ported! And the paperwork has a dimensioned outline for the port. Far out.
Just to satisfy your curiosity, the homologated bridge port had a main opening that was 51mm high, the bridge was 4.5mm thick, and the eyebrow was 7.5mm wide and 41mm tall. Not very big, but decently sized. The eyebrow closed about 5-10 degrees before the main port did, going by the ol' eyeball gauge. The exhaust ports were 32mm by 38mm with 10mm radiuses in the corners. No specification as to *where* the exhaust ports are, while the intake port does seem to have a spec as to where it's put.
And the stuff I really wanted... the VOs for the brakes and such. 38mmx4 calipers at all four wheels?, with 266mm rotors? Neat. I can *do* that.
02-02-13, 12:06 PM
#13
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,816
Received 2,586 Likes
on
1,837 Posts
yes please, we'd love to see them!
02-12-13, 04:32 PM
#14
Full Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Denmark
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Again guys i cant seem to figure out how to upload those pdf`s if someone pm me there email adress i will email them for them and maybe they could upload the papers ore a quick guide on how to upload stuff.
02-13-13, 09:01 AM
#15
If you click on "Post Reply" it will bring up a new window and there is a button there that says "Manage Attachments" if you click that you get a popup where you select the files to attach and it should attach them. I can get a screenshot if that helps, or are you getting some kind of error?
However there is a limit of 100kb on PDF's, how big are the files you have? I'd love to see them!
However there is a limit of 100kb on PDF's, how big are the files you have? I'd love to see them!
02-14-13, 06:45 PM
#16
Hey guys,
sa22rally was kind enough to email me his Group B homologation paperwork. Thanks to Billy, these are uploaded on iwankel for you viewing pleasure.
Largest Collection Of Mazda Manuals On The Net!
View folder "FISA Homologation"
sa22rally was kind enough to email me his Group B homologation paperwork. Thanks to Billy, these are uploaded on iwankel for you viewing pleasure.
Largest Collection Of Mazda Manuals On The Net!
View folder "FISA Homologation"
04-09-17, 12:37 PM
#17
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Colorado
Posts: 414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I found this the other day and apologize if it's already been posted, but I thought people would find it interesting:
Mazda Savanna RX-7 Group B Homolgation Papers
My understanding is that the only cars that were raced were the Evolution models so they didn't have to homologate any of the modifications back to the public.
Mazda Savanna RX-7 Group B Homolgation Papers
My understanding is that the only cars that were raced were the Evolution models so they didn't have to homologate any of the modifications back to the public.
04-09-17, 08:39 PM
#18
Good stuff, don't know why I haven't seen that before.
The photos are a lot clearer than the ones in the Group A papers.
Now I'm wondering how they did their rack and pinion steering. Since it was a dry sump engine they probably didn't have to worry about oil pan clearance and mounted it to use the stock tie rod locations.
The photos are a lot clearer than the ones in the Group A papers.
Now I'm wondering how they did their rack and pinion steering. Since it was a dry sump engine they probably didn't have to worry about oil pan clearance and mounted it to use the stock tie rod locations.
04-09-17, 10:06 PM
#20
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Colorado
Posts: 414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good stuff, don't know why I haven't seen that before.
The photos are a lot clearer than the ones in the Group A papers.
Now I'm wondering how they did their rack and pinion steering. Since it was a dry sump engine they probably didn't have to worry about oil pan clearance and mounted it to use the stock tie rod locations.
The photos are a lot clearer than the ones in the Group A papers.
Now I'm wondering how they did their rack and pinion steering. Since it was a dry sump engine they probably didn't have to worry about oil pan clearance and mounted it to use the stock tie rod locations.
Actually a really cool site, lots of interesting documents about other cars as well. I love most vintage cars so reading the homologation papers on some of my favorites is a lot of fun.
The domain probably just expired, nothing wrong on your end.
06-02-17, 07:24 PM
#21
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,816
Received 2,586 Likes
on
1,837 Posts
06-18-17, 03:10 PM
#22
Old [Sch|F]ool
Thread Starter
The saddest part of this story, is that very car above didn’t even get to race. Ever. The tragedies of Group B caught up with the unrestricted series causing it to be canned before this plucky Mazda could ever turn a wheel. And to this day, it’s still never turned a wheel in anger.
One of my favorite videos from YouTube (taken down apparently) was the opening of the 1985 RAC, which opened to a hot stage. Ingvar Carlsson was car 9, which is special to me since I use that number on my car...
06-18-17, 03:18 PM
#23
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,816
Received 2,586 Likes
on
1,837 Posts
Ah, Top Gear, they once again prove the stereotype that British journalism takes pride in getting things wrong, as if facts are something lower-class people are concerned with.
Except of course for all of the rallies that MRTE entered, finishing as high as 3rd place at the 1985 Acropolis. And not counting various non-International rallies either.
One of my favorite videos from YouTube (taken down apparently) was the opening of the 1985 RAC, which opened to a hot stage. Ingvar Carlsson was car 9, which is special to me since I use that number on my car...
Except of course for all of the rallies that MRTE entered, finishing as high as 3rd place at the 1985 Acropolis. And not counting various non-International rallies either.
One of my favorite videos from YouTube (taken down apparently) was the opening of the 1985 RAC, which opened to a hot stage. Ingvar Carlsson was car 9, which is special to me since I use that number on my car...
i do think they were talking about that specific car, and not the MRTE cars in general. like THAT car in the pics never got raced.
06-18-17, 04:06 PM
#24
Old [Sch|F]ool
Thread Starter
Most Group B cars never did... they made the 200 street homologation models and the 20 evolution models, and most of the evolution models were used as spare parts cars... Rules said they had to be made, not that they had to stay made.
Audi did one better. They sometimes recalled a privately owned street Sport Quattro and took its aluminum engine out and installed a plain iron one "under warranty". People with rally cars and non-original engines have tracked down the SQ with their engine's serial number and verified that Audi took their engine from them...
Audi did one better. They sometimes recalled a privately owned street Sport Quattro and took its aluminum engine out and installed a plain iron one "under warranty". People with rally cars and non-original engines have tracked down the SQ with their engine's serial number and verified that Audi took their engine from them...
Last edited by peejay; 06-18-17 at 04:08 PM.
