(OTHER) HELP: GSLSE No Fuel/No Start
03-19-02, 11:27 PM
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(OTHER) HELP: GSLSE No Fuel/No Start
After pounding my head for the past couple days, Ive come to the conclusion my GSLSE is not getting fuel. I tested the fuel pump and it pumps real good at 71 psi. But past that I dont know where to check. Is there a relay to bypass could it be the regulator? Pulsation Damper? Fuel Injector? Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks!!
Thanks!!
03-20-02, 08:15 AM
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I don't know that much about the rotaries yet, but my understanding is that the injector pulse on the 84 13b is triggered by the trailing plug ignition cycle. If you have fuel delivvvery volume and that amount of pressure I would check with a noid light to see if a signal was going to the injectors.
03-20-02, 09:27 AM
#5
8krpm is not enough
Digger's exactly right. If you look at the - side of the trailing coil you'll notice 2 wires on it. One's the standard ignitor sink line that fires the coil, and one's the tach pulse line to the ECU. If for ANY reason you lose the trailing ignition the car will NOT start (because the ECU doesn't get any ignition pulses). I'd check the ignitor, coil, ect, the haynes manual has procedures for this.
The haynes manual also has procedures for testing the injectors to see if those work or not, since that'd be the next logical step after the trailing ign.
Let us know what happens
--matt
Edit: Also, Felix has a point. There's an interlock on the AFM that will cause the ECU to stop sending injector pulses, so see if you can push the door on the afm open without using alot of force and see if it snaps closed with a soft thunk...sometimes with the 84's or with a cold air intake water can get into the AFM and gum up the works.
The haynes manual also has procedures for testing the injectors to see if those work or not, since that'd be the next logical step after the trailing ign.
Let us know what happens
--matt
Edit: Also, Felix has a point. There's an interlock on the AFM that will cause the ECU to stop sending injector pulses, so see if you can push the door on the afm open without using alot of force and see if it snaps closed with a soft thunk...sometimes with the 84's or with a cold air intake water can get into the AFM and gum up the works.
Last edited by speckamp; 03-20-02 at 09:29 AM.
03-20-02, 09:41 AM
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Hey, Pardner....
Just had a "no start" issue with my SE. She was sitting at idle, and suddenly just stopped running, and wouldn't start....
Changed fuel filter...No good
Pulled fuel hose off engine where it comes from the firewall. I wasn't impressed with the pressure...Put on a new fuel pump.....No good
Just to be certain...New plugs, wires, dizzy cap, and rotor....Engine no start, but plugs came out soaking wet.
Shoot 'er up with MMO into the plug holes, let sit....Still no start...
Finally, went to intake flapper door, (plugs wet, getting spark, must be lack of air) fiddled with that, got back on the key, worked the gas pedal....Yeah...Got 'er goin'.
So, pull plug, lay it on the engine, turn key...Do you see spark? Pull fuel hose...Getting fuel to the engine? If these are all a go, then like Felix says...Flapper door!
Denny, from the 'ol corncrib....
Just had a "no start" issue with my SE. She was sitting at idle, and suddenly just stopped running, and wouldn't start....
Changed fuel filter...No good
Pulled fuel hose off engine where it comes from the firewall. I wasn't impressed with the pressure...Put on a new fuel pump.....No good
Just to be certain...New plugs, wires, dizzy cap, and rotor....Engine no start, but plugs came out soaking wet.
Shoot 'er up with MMO into the plug holes, let sit....Still no start...
Finally, went to intake flapper door, (plugs wet, getting spark, must be lack of air) fiddled with that, got back on the key, worked the gas pedal....Yeah...Got 'er goin'.
So, pull plug, lay it on the engine, turn key...Do you see spark? Pull fuel hose...Getting fuel to the engine? If these are all a go, then like Felix says...Flapper door!
Denny, from the 'ol corncrib....
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03-20-02, 11:54 AM
#8
My GSL-SE died a few months back with the same simptoms. Fuel pressure was alright, spark alright, etc. It turned out to be the fuel pressure regulator. That little gem happens to be buried under the whole REGI plenum/ upper intake manifold. Seems like the little membrane done rot away after 17 years. Try pinching closed the fuel return line with some vise grips. If your car runs then, it's probably the regulator.
Oh, and of course, it's a dealer only part that sells for the bargain price of $218.
Oh, and of course, it's a dealer only part that sells for the bargain price of $218.
03-20-02, 08:17 PM
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I have good spark at the leading and trailing plugs, I tested with both a timing light and by hooking up the spark plugs out of the engine. I put a pressure gauge at the hose right by the oil filter then jumped the switch over by the air filter and lots of fuel. As for the Flapper door under the air filter I opened it up and could hear the fuel pump go on but couldnt smell fuel. Next test tonight visegrips on the return line. To be continued.....
03-21-02, 12:07 AM
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Thanks for all the input, I appreciate it very much! I did use the visegrips and it started and rattled and farted for 20 seconds. I think it might be the regulator like killjoy 7 says. Is this the symptoms? Whoaaaa $218. The flapper moved easily. so I kinda ruled out the AFM. Does anybody know where to get the pressure regulator from?
03-23-02, 12:01 PM
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R Lee,
This is going to be some work, but it will narrow down the problem a little.
Pull the upper intake and all the junk that you need to get to the primary fuel injectors. Then pull the primary injectors out of the engine, and leave the injectors stuck in the fuel rail. Hold both of the injectors while you have a friend turn the ignition on to operate the fuel pump. You want pressure on the system. On a second gen you can turn the ignition to start without turning the engine over and it will run the fuel pump. I don't know if this is the same on an SE or not. Anyway, you want the pump running. For all I know about a SE, you may have to spin the engine to get it to actuate the injectors, anyway, you get the idea.
With the ignition on and the pump running the injectors should spray fuel if you have pressure. If both of the injectors are spraying they should be ok. Have your friend turn the ignition off right away, (fuel is spraying all over) and let the system sit idle. Keep an eye on the injectors. If the are dribbling out fuel you have a problem. If they have been leaking, this could cause your no start problem.
By doing this you have eliminated (or found) two problems, you will find out if you have fuel pressure to the injectors, and you will find out if they are leaking with the system just sitting.
By the way, the regulator and the fuel dampner will not cause a no start situation.
hanman
This is going to be some work, but it will narrow down the problem a little.
Pull the upper intake and all the junk that you need to get to the primary fuel injectors. Then pull the primary injectors out of the engine, and leave the injectors stuck in the fuel rail. Hold both of the injectors while you have a friend turn the ignition on to operate the fuel pump. You want pressure on the system. On a second gen you can turn the ignition to start without turning the engine over and it will run the fuel pump. I don't know if this is the same on an SE or not. Anyway, you want the pump running. For all I know about a SE, you may have to spin the engine to get it to actuate the injectors, anyway, you get the idea.
With the ignition on and the pump running the injectors should spray fuel if you have pressure. If both of the injectors are spraying they should be ok. Have your friend turn the ignition off right away, (fuel is spraying all over) and let the system sit idle. Keep an eye on the injectors. If the are dribbling out fuel you have a problem. If they have been leaking, this could cause your no start problem.
By doing this you have eliminated (or found) two problems, you will find out if you have fuel pressure to the injectors, and you will find out if they are leaking with the system just sitting.
By the way, the regulator and the fuel dampner will not cause a no start situation.
hanman
Last edited by hanman; 03-23-02 at 12:04 PM.
03-23-02, 04:13 PM
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hanman, that procedure will not cause the injectors to spray. That is how you check for leaking injectors, ignition on with the fuel pump check connector jumped, but to get them to spray you would have to apply battery power. If they were leaking it should cause flooding and his plugs would be wet.
R Lee, are both front and rear plugs dry after a lot of cranking?
How did the problem arise? Was the car sitting for awhile or it happened all of a sudden? If it was fine and the next day both plugs are dry, the injectors might not be the best place to start looking. They would not likely both stick closed at the same time.
To see if the injectors are getting signal, the best bet is a mechanics stethoscope. While someone turns the engine over, you listen for the clicking as they open and close.
You checked the fuel pressure at the right spot, but the next step would have been to "T" into the line at the same spot and you would have known the regulated pressure and if that was the problem or not.
As the car started for a bit the injectors likely have 12v as the are on the same circuit as the coils. If you have 12v on the positive of the coil, the injectors should have it.
The water thermo sensor can cause a no start: It is located just behind the thermostat housing. Green connector. It should measure 2.45 kohms at about 70 degrees F.
You have changed the fuel filter? Did you check for flow when you checked the pressure?
The curious part is why it ran for a bit when you pinched the fuel return line.
There was a similar problem, dry plugs, discussed here:
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...ight=fuel+pump
There might be something else to try in that thread.
You mentioned when you opened the flap in the AFM the pump started but you didn't smell fuel. You wouldn't smell fuel as it is just circulating through the fuel rail and back to the tank, it is not being injected. As long as the pump starts, the AFM is good.
If the thermo sensor is good, the next step might be to check the voltages at the ECU inputs.
-John.
R Lee, are both front and rear plugs dry after a lot of cranking?
How did the problem arise? Was the car sitting for awhile or it happened all of a sudden? If it was fine and the next day both plugs are dry, the injectors might not be the best place to start looking. They would not likely both stick closed at the same time.
To see if the injectors are getting signal, the best bet is a mechanics stethoscope. While someone turns the engine over, you listen for the clicking as they open and close.
You checked the fuel pressure at the right spot, but the next step would have been to "T" into the line at the same spot and you would have known the regulated pressure and if that was the problem or not.
As the car started for a bit the injectors likely have 12v as the are on the same circuit as the coils. If you have 12v on the positive of the coil, the injectors should have it.
The water thermo sensor can cause a no start: It is located just behind the thermostat housing. Green connector. It should measure 2.45 kohms at about 70 degrees F.
You have changed the fuel filter? Did you check for flow when you checked the pressure?
The curious part is why it ran for a bit when you pinched the fuel return line.
There was a similar problem, dry plugs, discussed here:
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...ight=fuel+pump
There might be something else to try in that thread.
You mentioned when you opened the flap in the AFM the pump started but you didn't smell fuel. You wouldn't smell fuel as it is just circulating through the fuel rail and back to the tank, it is not being injected. As long as the pump starts, the AFM is good.
If the thermo sensor is good, the next step might be to check the voltages at the ECU inputs.
-John.
03-23-02, 11:24 PM
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Its Running !!!
hanman thanks for your post it did help and I did try to see if there was fuel coming out of the injectors and there was none.
john- fj yes thanks for the help. Both plugs dry. Cause=Effect. You were abosolutey correct. I did pull the top off and jumped the bypass for fuel and cranked the motor over with the injectors out and sitting on top of the engine. No Fuel. Tested the power to the injectors and one was 12v and the other was like 7 v. Suspect ECU. Yes it did Snow here in Seattle a couple weeks ago, my door seals leaked water into the passenger side and when we took it out for a ride to the grocery store, sure enough water ran into the ECU area.
As we were coming down a steep hill .
I just pumped out 2 gallons of water. Installed a used ECU and shes running! Whoo hoooo!
Thanks again, John Thanks! I enjoyed that thread and sure can relate.. what happened in the end did he get his running?
Randy
hanman thanks for your post it did help and I did try to see if there was fuel coming out of the injectors and there was none.
john- fj yes thanks for the help. Both plugs dry. Cause=Effect. You were abosolutey correct. I did pull the top off and jumped the bypass for fuel and cranked the motor over with the injectors out and sitting on top of the engine. No Fuel. Tested the power to the injectors and one was 12v and the other was like 7 v. Suspect ECU. Yes it did Snow here in Seattle a couple weeks ago, my door seals leaked water into the passenger side and when we took it out for a ride to the grocery store, sure enough water ran into the ECU area.
As we were coming down a steep hill .
I just pumped out 2 gallons of water. Installed a used ECU and shes running! Whoo hoooo!
Thanks again, John Thanks! I enjoyed that thread and sure can relate.. what happened in the end did he get his running?
Randy
03-24-02, 12:23 PM
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Great! 
Rxseven, in the other thread, did fix his. The connectors on his injectors were broken. He had a main relay die shortly after that but it is running well now.
-John.
Rxseven, in the other thread, did fix his. The connectors on his injectors were broken. He had a main relay die shortly after that but it is running well now.
-John.
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