Purported Improvements to the Rotary
#1
Wankeled 86
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Purported Improvements to the Rotary
Saw this video on autoline.tv:
Episode 997 – New Subcompact for Brazil, Auto Sales on the Rise, First Zinc-Air Battery? – Autoline Daily
Here are some images of a modified and factory housing side by side captured from the video.
I contacted Mazdatrix about performing this modification to the housings and here is the email conversation:
From: Mazdatrix [mailto:mail@mazdatrix.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 4:31 PM
To: J. Velasco
Subject: Re: Rotor housing modification
Sorry, no. We have no way of doing that. Also, getting the filled-in area perfectly flat with the rest of that area of the rotor housing would be extremely hard to do.
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Velasco
To: 'mail@mazdatrix.com'
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:00 AM
Subject: Rotor housing modification
I would like to test this modification’s potential on a 12A motor of mine. Would Mazdatrix be able to change the rotor facing side of my spark plug ports to slits no taller than 1.5mm slots? If so, could you provide me with a ballpark estimate of the cost for this modification to be performed on 12(a) housings? I’ve attached t(w)o images to illustrate what it is I’m wanting. Thank you in advance.
I was disappointed to here their answer.
The way Ernie Brink described it, it makes sense that it would greatly minimize if not almost eliminate compression & mixture loss as well as reduce exhaust temps. Reduced exhaust temps would also translate to a cooler motor.
Episode 997 – New Subcompact for Brazil, Auto Sales on the Rise, First Zinc-Air Battery? – Autoline Daily
Here are some images of a modified and factory housing side by side captured from the video.
I contacted Mazdatrix about performing this modification to the housings and here is the email conversation:
From: Mazdatrix [mailto:mail@mazdatrix.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 4:31 PM
To: J. Velasco
Subject: Re: Rotor housing modification
Sorry, no. We have no way of doing that. Also, getting the filled-in area perfectly flat with the rest of that area of the rotor housing would be extremely hard to do.
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Velasco
To: 'mail@mazdatrix.com'
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:00 AM
Subject: Rotor housing modification
I would like to test this modification’s potential on a 12A motor of mine. Would Mazdatrix be able to change the rotor facing side of my spark plug ports to slits no taller than 1.5mm slots? If so, could you provide me with a ballpark estimate of the cost for this modification to be performed on 12(a) housings? I’ve attached t(w)o images to illustrate what it is I’m wanting. Thank you in advance.
I was disappointed to here their answer.
The way Ernie Brink described it, it makes sense that it would greatly minimize if not almost eliminate compression & mixture loss as well as reduce exhaust temps. Reduced exhaust temps would also translate to a cooler motor.
Last edited by dr.occa; 02-01-13 at 12:32 PM.
#2
Red Pill Dealer
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I'm curious of the other slit further down in the housing. I'm sure that a good welder could take care of that for you but, life expectancy might be a crap shoot. Someone very good and careful at handworking could probably get that flat enough to work.
#3
In the burnout box...
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You can't weld the inner chrome liner I just want to make sure you guys get that. You will compromise the wear resistance, expansion rate (various metals) and then you have the intergranular corrosion factor.
The only feasible way to fix the inner surface is to chrome plate the entire area or plasma spraying. We're looking to see if the chrome plating is worth even getting into. It's not hard at all it's a dirty, smelly, and low profit margin job.
Plasma spraying would be superior due to the array of material choice. Again, unless someone wanted to pay high dollars for something of higher strength (not a problem at all with even the factory chrome liner) or wear resistance then there's no profit margin.
I won't say what the real answer should be as that will be our next R&D undertaking...
The only feasible way to fix the inner surface is to chrome plate the entire area or plasma spraying. We're looking to see if the chrome plating is worth even getting into. It's not hard at all it's a dirty, smelly, and low profit margin job.
Plasma spraying would be superior due to the array of material choice. Again, unless someone wanted to pay high dollars for something of higher strength (not a problem at all with even the factory chrome liner) or wear resistance then there's no profit margin.
I won't say what the real answer should be as that will be our next R&D undertaking...
#4
Just in time to die
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Lol, Ernie is a good friend who stops here often, those are old A-spec parts you're looking at. The other slit further down the housing is another spark plug location. As far as welding stuff and what not the parts you see were just a proof of concept not the actual finished product, he actually has running engines now.
~S~
~S~
#6
Sharp Claws
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sheesh, not here too....
i saw that video months back and shook my head.
a) of course if you take a picture of the rotor housing without a plug in it, it will look like a huge gaping hole. a real issue? not so much if you actually put the proper surface discharge plug in there and look again.
b) mazda already tested various pocket configurations, probably also tested the plug holes and locations to no end as well
c) a fellow on the RX8 forum tested moving the lead plug in further, reducing the compression release pocket in the leading plug hole and the result was disturbing versus an obvious gain.
but hey, i would love to see a backyard mechanic come up with a revolutionary fix, unfortunately i know better that this particular fix isn't really going to fix much. is it a problem? yes, but not a huge one.
want something revolutionary? run alcohol in your rotary engine and see similar to the claimed results! all without welding globs to your rotor housings and rotors.
you guys will take anything seriously won't you. that video was to dig up viewers from the obvious lacking rotary enthusiasts after the announcement of the end of rotary engine car production. what would it take to convince me? not just some words. i want to see EGT logs, performance charts, coolant temps, before and after results..
i saw that video months back and shook my head.
a) of course if you take a picture of the rotor housing without a plug in it, it will look like a huge gaping hole. a real issue? not so much if you actually put the proper surface discharge plug in there and look again.
b) mazda already tested various pocket configurations, probably also tested the plug holes and locations to no end as well
c) a fellow on the RX8 forum tested moving the lead plug in further, reducing the compression release pocket in the leading plug hole and the result was disturbing versus an obvious gain.
but hey, i would love to see a backyard mechanic come up with a revolutionary fix, unfortunately i know better that this particular fix isn't really going to fix much. is it a problem? yes, but not a huge one.
want something revolutionary? run alcohol in your rotary engine and see similar to the claimed results! all without welding globs to your rotor housings and rotors.
you guys will take anything seriously won't you. that video was to dig up viewers from the obvious lacking rotary enthusiasts after the announcement of the end of rotary engine car production. what would it take to convince me? not just some words. i want to see EGT logs, performance charts, coolant temps, before and after results..
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 02-12-13 at 01:20 PM.
#7
Wankeled 86
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I'd like to either see that this not only works in theory but also with real world results
OR
see that it's actually not viable. I'm not going to just start hurling "snake oil sales man" right off the bat.
I'd like proof either way and I'm hoping for positive and tangible evidence. Many of us here in "gullible" Texas are very interested in seeing what the results are if any.
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#9
Wankeled 86
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Sometimes "you can't see the forest for the trees" still does apply.
#10
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I'm sure that a good welder could take care of that for you but, life expectancy might be a crap shoot. Someone very good and careful at handworking could probably get that flat enough to work.
#12
Also, getting the filled-in area perfectly flat with the rest of that area of the rotor housing would be extremely hard to do.
You can't weld the inner chrome liner I just want to make sure you guys get that. You will compromise the wear resistance, expansion rate (various metals) and then you have the intergranular corrosion factor.
#15
Thrashing your Roy score!
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http://www.turborx7.com/images/Techn...e_diagram2.jpg
Lets just say its possible they missed something when copy pasting the work of Mr. Wankel.
#16
Wankeled 86
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If you ever want to understand the true "capabilities" of Mazda R&D engineers just follow this link.
http://www.turborx7.com/images/Techn...e_diagram2.jpg
Lets just say its possible they missed something when copy pasting the work of Mr. Wankel.
http://www.turborx7.com/images/Techn...e_diagram2.jpg
Lets just say its possible they missed something when copy pasting the work of Mr. Wankel.
...are you referring to the "empty pipe" in the diagram?
Last edited by dr.occa; 12-16-13 at 01:35 PM.
#17
Thrashing your Roy score!
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In Lewis Carroll’s classic Through the Looking Glass, the White Knight shows Alice his own invention—a lunch basket mounted upside down. “I carry it upside down so the rain can’t get in” he says with pride. “But the things can get out,” Alice replies. “Do you know the lid’s open?”
The White Knight just like Mazda made the classic engineering mistake of focusing on a secondary objective to the point where he totally overlooks the primary goal(a reliable, maintainable, marketable vehicle).
That link is one of the greatest engineering failures of all time before it even started.
The White Knight just like Mazda made the classic engineering mistake of focusing on a secondary objective to the point where he totally overlooks the primary goal(a reliable, maintainable, marketable vehicle).
That link is one of the greatest engineering failures of all time before it even started.
#18
well now with the improvements being suggested in that video and today's technology it seems like the chances of having the best of both are worlds are more likely than ever.
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surface discharge plug
sheesh, not here too....
i saw that video months back and shook my head.
a) of course if you take a picture of the rotor housing without a plug in it, it will look like a huge gaping hole. a real issue? not so much if you actually put the proper surface discharge plug in there and look again.
b) mazda already tested various pocket configurations, probably also tested the plug holes and locations to no end as well
c) a fellow on the RX8 forum tested moving the lead plug in further, reducing the compression release pocket in the leading plug hole and the result was disturbing versus an obvious gain.
but hey, i would love to see a backyard mechanic come up with a revolutionary fix, unfortunately i know better that this particular fix isn't really going to fix much. is it a problem? yes, but not a huge one.
want something revolutionary? run alcohol in your rotary engine and see similar to the claimed results! all without welding globs to your rotor housings and rotors.
you guys will take anything seriously won't you. that video was to dig up viewers from the obvious lacking rotary enthusiasts after the announcement of the end of rotary engine car production. what would it take to convince me? not just some words. i want to see EGT logs, performance charts, coolant temps, before and after results..
i saw that video months back and shook my head.
a) of course if you take a picture of the rotor housing without a plug in it, it will look like a huge gaping hole. a real issue? not so much if you actually put the proper surface discharge plug in there and look again.
b) mazda already tested various pocket configurations, probably also tested the plug holes and locations to no end as well
c) a fellow on the RX8 forum tested moving the lead plug in further, reducing the compression release pocket in the leading plug hole and the result was disturbing versus an obvious gain.
but hey, i would love to see a backyard mechanic come up with a revolutionary fix, unfortunately i know better that this particular fix isn't really going to fix much. is it a problem? yes, but not a huge one.
want something revolutionary? run alcohol in your rotary engine and see similar to the claimed results! all without welding globs to your rotor housings and rotors.
you guys will take anything seriously won't you. that video was to dig up viewers from the obvious lacking rotary enthusiasts after the announcement of the end of rotary engine car production. what would it take to convince me? not just some words. i want to see EGT logs, performance charts, coolant temps, before and after results..
#25
Old [Sch|F]ool
That's the first time I have ever heard anybody claim that Wankels were more efficient than piston engines at anything other than converting fuel to noise.
They're so much less efficient it isn't funny. Peripheral port rotaries USED TO eclipse piston engines for BSFC, in a narrow region of high loadings, but piston engines have made a lot of gains since then.
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