jfantis

I have been reading up on various ECU's and there seems to be a lot of choices. Hoping to hear your opinions. I don't want a flame war between this ECU vs another. Just pro's or cons. I have installed and tuned a few Electromotive units with great results, but that isn't what I want for the FD. This is a list of what I am looking for. In order of importance.
1. Retain twins in sequential operation
2. Retain OMP
3. Retain emissions equipment for easier smog testing
4. Closed loop auto-tuning from wideband input
5. Low impedance injectors without resistor pack. True peak and hold operation
6. On board boost control
7. Knock control
8. EGT input
9. Fuel pressure input
10. Gear dependent and or throttle dependent boost targets (for future use)
11. Traction control would be nice as a future possibility.
12. PNP would be nice but not required
13. Trigger CEL or warning for OMP failure, fuel pressure, EGT etc...
14. USB connection vs. serial to laptop.

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

I am going to respond for the AEM. I will let the other members or vendors post for the other options.


Yes, Full sequential control.

Yes, Full OMP control

Yes, All emissions devices work.

Yes, This is recommended by dyno tuning only. Transients and many other things will effect the accuracy of the auto tune feature. when moving through cells too quickly the ECU will learn bad trims. You will need to hold certain cells for the ecu to make accurate learning values.

No, Saturated only without a resistor box.

Yes, The ECU has very comprehensive Open loop boost tuning stratigies as well as the ability to add error and P + I control.

Yes, The ECU even has the ability to add a second knock sensor.

Yes, retaining all of the sequential and emissions functions you still have 2 EGT inputs. The ECU has the ability to make individual fuel and timing adjustments per rotor with EGT sensors installed.

Yes, You have a 2d table(fuel pressure v. Manifold pressure) to set a minimum limit threshold. This will allow you to set a curve based on your base pressure and allow you to compensate for any ratio of rising rate regulators. You have the ability to set delay time, if it enables an engine rev limit, an engine rev limit, and an output for a warning light. You also have the same ability for Oil Pressure but instead of Fuel pressure v. manifold pressure it is Oil Pressure v Engine RPM.

Yes, Boost tuning can be controlled by TPS, RPM, VSS, Gear, 3rd party trim sw, High/low switch or a combination of all of them. You must add a trim or High/Low switch for those functions to work.

Yes, The AEM does traction control based on rpm deltas. You will set a maximum rpm delta and then you will apply a per gear comp to compensate for each gear. This is not as accurate as driven v undriven calculations. The advantage is you do not need to add any other sensors to get the traction control to work. The ECU uses the stock FD speed sensor. It will calculate gear based on engine speed and VSS. So, Traction control will work right out of the box. There is no need to add any additional sensors to get traction control working. The ECU has specific channels to tell you what the deltas are .All you need to do is make clean no slip acceleration runs and use the data to fill in the tables as thresholds.

Yes, PnP. You may be required to add shims to the cam and crank sensors if the gaps are too large. If the you do add shims the stock ecu and any other ecu will still work.


It does have the ability to control the CEL. it will not however enable a light for OMP failure. It has the ability to enable the light for water temp, oil pressure, oil temp, fuel pressure, or if the engine runs lean.

The ECU has the ability to communicate through both USB 2.0 and Serial/RS232.

EB Turbo

jfantis

Awesome. Thank you for the detailed response. I assume you are referring to the series2. I have also been looking at the Infinity, but can't really find enough info on actual installs, but it looks great on paper. I know most of what I am looking for is overkill for a stock twin car but I enjoy tuning and like to have a lot of flexibility. I am aiming for good emissions, better than stock driveability, and modest power improvement.

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

The Infinity is still in its development stages. Each application needs to be added and debugged. I will be getting my hands on one hopefully pretty soon. The Infinity is leaps and bounds above the rest. The downside you will be almost double the cost of the other PnP kits on the market.

The Emissions, driveability and power gain can be had through all ecus with enough tuning. some are easier to get to than others and the details like extra inputs and special features really set certain kits apart.

EB Turbo.

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

I am surprised no one else has chimed in for the other ECU kits that are available...

EB Turbo

tony94s4

iTrader: (1)

I have been to busy enjoying the car with adaptronic, no time to post lol

BLACK MAMBA

iTrader: (58)

Same here.

Akagis_white_comet

iTrader: (4)

Haltech's Platinum Sport 1000 & 2000 can do everything but #3 right out of the box. While it IS possible to operate emissions equipment in the intended manner, I am not sure of the exact procedure yet. On the plus side, there is a workaround via its Dual Maps input. Flip a switch on the Digital Switched Input and the ECU switches from the normal driving map to one specifically tuned for passing emission tests.

As for traction control, this would require the ECU being able to talk to the ABS Computer and vise versa (need to crack its 'language' as well). With everything else in place, you may be running low on inputs/outputs. However, the I/O Expander12 can alleviate this. Again, I do not know the full extent of what is required to implement proper communication with the ABS system, so please approach this with the correct frame of mind.

Another option you might consider is the Megasquirt MS3Pro. As I have no hands-on experience with it, I don't know the specific ins & outs of it. I believe it has more inputs/outputs than the PS1K/2K as it is newer, but I am unable to confirm this or its abilities due to not having one. OTOH, Aaron Cake is well versed with it as illustrated with his 1976 Cosmo here:

Maybe we should put together a features chart for the available standalone choices, tailored to rotary-specific needs. Would be good for a FAQ too.

jfantis

Awesome I will check into the Haltech. Is there a vendor here you recommend?

Also any input on the Adaptronics some mentioned would be awesome.

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

With proper working emissions devices and a proper tune you should be able to pass emissions. There is no need for a "special tune" to pass emissions.

The ABS module does not have a data output. You would need to remove the ABS and tap into the stock wheel speed sensors.

This would be really good.

EB Turbo

0110-M-P

iTrader: (10)

I'll bite and answer regarding the Adaptronic Select.

Primary US supplier is Turbosource.
Adaptronic Select Mazda RX-7 ECU

Yes. However, if you want to upgrade the ignition system to run direct fire (as opposed to the factory wasted spark) you would have to be single turbo or non-sequential twins.

Yes

No. There is no pin in the Adaptronic associated with the EGR valve, airpump, relief 2, split air bypass or port air bypass. Also, the AWS and double throttle do not have provisions.

Yes. It is recommended to use an Innovate wideband because it will use the serial input, requires no special configuring, and will provide error codes (which prevents the unit from auto-tuning when an error code is present).

EDIT: I'm not positive now that I think more about this...I'll double check.

Yes, 2D boost control table. Also has an onboard 4-bar MAP sensor so there is no need to buy a new GM 3-bar if you want to run more than 16 or 17psi.

Yes. Also includes headphone jack on ecu so that you can hook up headphones and listen to knock directly.

Yes and no. No direct input for EGT on ecu, but can run Innovate TC-4 module with serial cable to the serial input on Adaptronic unit. It can be used in conjunction with any Innovate brand wideband.

No, only would work as auxiliary input if you have one available (i.e. eliminated some other function)

Yes for gear dependent. Not sure about throttle dependent, but I think not.

Yes, need to add wheel speed sensors for this to work.

Yes, it is plug and play.

No CEL function. Can configure an output to power an LED for notification though.

USB connection only.

Also, I have attached the PDF of the Adaptronic's pin out so that you can get a better understanding it.

0110-M-P

iTrader: (10)

Ok, can't edit my post (if a mod wants to and delete this post, feel free). For the Adaptronic Select.

May need clarification from Andy, but it appears that you can if you trick the ecu. Since the Adaptronic Select is basically the same thing as a Adaptronic e420c, you can change the "ECU Model ID" in the software and access more options in "Triggering Settings" under the "Triggering" tab.

This is the same way that you would change from a stock crank trigger wheel to a FFE trigger wheel or change from a reluctor crank angle sensor to a hall effect sensor.

Still not 100% positive this will work on the Select ecu like the crank trigger does, but it seems like it should.

Yes for gear dependent boost control.
Yes for RPM dependent boost control.
No for throttle dependent boost control.

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

I thought the adaptronic only had serial/rs232 comms?

EB Turbo

0110-M-P

iTrader: (10)

No, the Select is USB only. It only has serial comms for I/O devices though...no CAN.

tony94s4

iTrader: (1)

Universal is also usb, u can also load maps, firmware, tune just the way it sits on the desk with no power or harness attached, with only usb conection

For me with chopped up plugs, no harness, single turbo, 440 universal ill say it again was best bang for the buck

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

Got it, Thanks.

I think I should be noted about the ECU strategies. Even though they should achieve the same thing the boost, idle, staged injection, fuel calculations are vastly different.

Boost

AEM uses more of a open loop sort of tuning. Very comprehensive Open loop tuning tables for boost control. This allows for very accurate single and multiple boost settings in open loop form. You still have the ability to add closed loop P+I control to help fine tune for varying conditions. Tuning the open loop system can be a bit complicated when trying to implement very complex strategies. more than just one or two different boost levels. More like 5-10 different boost levels.

Adaptronic uses very basic open loop tables. This just sets a base line for the closed loop P+I+D to sort out the details. This is a bit easier to set up but you are relying on the accuracy of the P+I+D settings to fine tune the boost. Tuning PIDs can be just as complicated as the open loop tuning with the AEM. Both should take the same amount of time and effort of tuning to achieve the same results. It really comes down to preference of tuning style.

I am out of time to complete fuel strategy and staged injection. If someone doesn't add those I will later. And maybe someone can chime in for the Haltech strategies.

EB Turbo

EB Turbo

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Your statements are subjective. Unless all of the facts are taken into consideration and a consensus is taken you cannot claim what you are claiming in this thread.

If you go and look at the responses to the OPs questions the AEM has 13 of 14 yes. The adaptronic has 10 of 14 yes and one as a yes/no.

EB Turbo

jfantis

Thank you that is exactly what I am looking for. The features I asked about are simply the ones I am interested in, however if you think I missed any important features please list them. Anyone else please limit this thread to a list of specs/features of a specific unit not ecu a vs ecu b. If there are mistakes in the list of specs/features please correct them. To those who have replied thank you it has been very helpful. I have read many of the ECU specific subsections and it would take weeks to compile a list on each just from the current threads.

Just an afterthought maybe we should have a sticky in each sub-forum with the list of features/specs of that specific ECU. And limit the discussion to that specific ECU.

0110-M-P

iTrader: (10)

Looking at this ecu's features and messing with the software for a little bit...it seems extremely powerful, doesn't have clunky software, and at $1050 for the unit ($1200 with 8' wiring harness/connectors) it could be an amazing value.

MS3-Pro Standalone Engine Management System by DIYAutoTune.com

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Only thing is that MS3 (Pro or not) won't run the electronic metering oil pump. At least not without software mods. It does have a stepper driver so I'd imagine it's not out of the real of possibility to alter the software but out of the box, no. And like many ECUs these days, high impedance only.

The MegaSquirt AutoTune feature is a joy. An hour of driving around with it on and you will have a damn near perfect map. Transients are factored into the autotune. Hell, the thing can even autotune cold start.

And I echo the concerns about switchable duel maps: this is something which should NEVER be done. A good map won't need an "emissions" and "power" mode.

Basically fulfills all the requirements in the original list with the exception of: metering oil pump, low impedance.

Plenty of outputs to run the emissions stuff and sequential turbos but you will have to set them up.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

for the haltech platinums

yes.

yes

yes, however most of the emissions stuff works on two inputs, such as rpm and load, and the haltech usually can only do one parameter. if you pick the right one, it would probably be 99% there.

i'm going to say yes, but no first hand experience with it.

yep.

yes, and it will do open or closed loop

unbelievably no

yes, you can do more than one, until you run out of outputs

yep

gear dependent, not sure about throttle


no although if you got creative with the expansion boxes, and or boost control you could have some approximation

a couple vendors offer an adapter harness

there is a CEL, and an engine protection menu, i'm lacking first hand experience with both

oh it is USB that's nice

jfantis

I will definitely research the Megasquirt and Haltech. Thanks for the info.

RENESISFD

iTrader: (13)

Haltech makes a PnP patch harness for the platinum series ECU's. It will not do sequential turbo operation though.

EGT inputs can be at least 4.

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

re: Haltech

1 - Possible but I've never seen it done successfully while retaining the factory control structure in its entirety. The stock system has at least one circuit that is windowed based on load and, I believe, RPM. The Haltech Sport ECUs give you one channel to setup as a 3-axis output with user definable axis. This output can be windowed as well. Like I said, I know you need at least one channel setup like this. If memory serves me correctly it's for the pre-control solenoid. If you need a 2nd or 3rd circuit, the Haltech won't accommodate this.
2. Yes. Works well and is well documented.
3. Strictly speaking, installation of any aftermarket engine management system on a pollution controlled vehicle is illegal. So how intent are you on "retaining emissions equipment"? Most any system, manned by a competent tuner, running an engine that is not ported too aggressively, with be able to pass a sniffer and a visual test.
4. Haltech employs what they call Quicktune. When the Q or W keys are pressed on the laptop, the ECU will instantly compare the current AFR with the target AFR. It will then make adjustments to the pulse width of the current cell for load/rpm. This function works GREAT on when used on a load bearing dyno, no so much on the street. It's too hard to provide steady load control on the street. IMO, every system should be mapped on a chassis dyno and this function speeds the process greatly. I've worked with "autotune" systems that are supposed to fully map themselves just by being driven around. I've seen results ranging from scary to moderately liveable. "Autotune", as such, is very low on my own list of useable features.
5. Yes.
6. Yes. Closed or open loop. Gear, speed, or TPS based. Offsets for ethanol (E85) content.
7. Not directly. A 3rd party knock detection package can be interfaced with the ECU. We've successfully interfaced units from Phormula with the Sport ECUs to provide trim for ignition advance, fuel pulse width, and boost level, individually or in any combination.
8. Yes. Up to 8 channels can be interfaced by using the Haltech CAN modules. The modules are available in 2 and 4 channel configuration. Two boxes can be used with one ECU. This allows easy EGT integration without using up valuable analog inputs. You can also configure any of the analog inputs to rear a 0-5v converter box, though this is far less of an elegant solution.
9. Yes. Safe guards can be implemented based on fuel pressure delta v. manifold pressure.
10. Yes, see #6.
11. Not in the sense you are speaking, I'm guessing. There is a 1st gear slew control feature. This is a programmable acceleration rate for 1st gear only. If the rate is exceeded, it's assumed that the drive wheels are spinning and spark is cut until the rate returns to the normal limit.
12. As mentioned, there is a patch loom that connects the Sport ECU to the factory emission harness. This does not provide control for the twins, but does retain AC.
13. Yes.
14. Direct USB.

My advice, since you're looking to employ advanced controls, is to connect yourself with a reputable vendor that is able to provide adequate tech support. While it can be rewarding blazing a trail yourself, if you make it to the end. It's no fun not being able to get answers to your questions. It's sad that some of the most knowledgeable individuals on this board need to speak in code and can't offer more direct assistance because they're not listed as vendors. I'll say this much, if AEM or Motec at all pique your interest, EB Turbo can take care of you as well as anyone. I'll throw out Syvecs and Pectel as two other brands you may be interested in exploring if you're truly interested in beyond hobbyist levels of control. While brands like this come with a higher sticker prices, they are also generally backed by tech support from guys that live and breathe engine control system and not the Ebay resellers.

jfantis

Great post. Thank you for clarifying.

I guess the Haltech is out as far as sequentials are concerned. I am more interested in driveability than max power.

I am aware that after market ECU's are not emissions legal. I do however want to be able to run the EGR and air pump for emissions testing. I would probably only enable them for the test itself if the car fails without them. In Georgia we have to run a loaded dyno session which can be a pain without the stock systems enabled. At least until 2018 when the car will be exempt.

Quicktune or autotune that works well would be nice but not needed. It is nice if used correctly. On the Tec-3 I could data log a driving session then choose only non-boost cells and allow it to change fuel map to lower the corrections needed, I haven't used in a while but I think you can have it ignore above a certain throttle input as well. Mainly this is used for cruising not power runs. Basically how a stock ECU uses LTFT based on STFT.

Tuning any of these doesn't scare me. I enjoy tuning as much as I do driving. None of the cars I tuned with the Tec even had a base map that would do anything past starting. If you never went into boost in my Miata you would swear it was a factory ECU. On the FD I want to keep the car feeling factory but a descent bit faster.

Yes I believe my needs will be more than what is available at the entry level. Cost is not a huge issue but I would like to keep it under $4,000. I think I will need to start doing more research into the AEM, Motec, or possibly the MS3 pro. I guess I also need to research how many inputs and outputs running all the stock stuff is going to take, plus all the extra stuff I want it to do. At that point I may have to start crossing off some of the stuff on my list. I think the new AEM Infinity might be able to do it.

I may also look into the Tec3r. I love the Tec3 but I am not the biggest fan of buying another Electromotive. I found the unit to be bug free, the software well written and tuning options excellent. Their tech support was top notch and the quality of the product was great, but they pissed me off. I bought the Tec3 right after it was released and many of the features they listed or listed as coming soon were promised by tech support for over a year, yet never released. Instead they introduced the Tec3r. Nearly all of the Tec3r upgrades were originally listed as features for the standard Tec3.