BDC

Thanks. I'll check them out; might even sticky them up on the AuxInj section on TeamFC3S.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

ryan,

"what did i pay".......

i don't specifically recall but alkycontrol's site prices the progressive (only one they sell) without 3 bar GM map sensor at $460. they send you the components. you locate them. measure your hose lengths and they custom make them for you from stainless steel hosing w brass hydraulic fittings. i relocated some of the electronic components to the package compartment behind the pass seat w my battery. since the kit comes w a special very heavy duty heat sink component controller for the pump i wanted it near the battery which is also near the pump. if i would have known this in advance i would have had Julio extend the wiring so i wouldn't have had to splice 9 wires some of which were shielded so if you have your battery relocated let me know and i will give you the specs and save you lots of screwing around.

check out the website.... pricing, components and FAQ. alkycontrol.com

howard coleman

Pimp Hand

iTrader: (3)

Here is a real good explaination of Ideal gass law. Drag the temp scale up and down. (release it to see the change) To see how temp efects a reaction. IE the slowing down of the flame front by a reduction of temp.

Its from ohiostate.edu

http://www.chemistry.ohio-state.edu/...aw/frb2.2.html

BDC

I wonder what this is like in an RE...

B

BDC

Also Pimp Hand, have you gotten any practical, real-world data from your setup? Pushed the boost any? Datalogs? Any kind of data? I'd like to check it out.

B

Pimp Hand

iTrader: (3)

Last links

Good historical brief--http://enginehistory.org/Frank%20WalkerWeb1.pdf

A nice reference--http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=222680


THE best science paper search tool!!!!----http://scholar.google.com/


My personal best is 27psi on 93oct. (70deg out) With 23% WI at torque peak. The % was calculated by fuel volume not weight. I’m not going to post afr's since i don’t want some noob reading this and trying it. But I must admit I don’t think any one should push past 24-25 psi, it just gets real hairy up there. With very little room for error. No log i was in the streets. But the "OH ****" meter went way up there.


READ: do not try 27 PSI!! You will go up in smoke!!

ronbros3

OK! GUYS, seeing how everybody is excited about alternative fuels, I have been asking this question for about 10yrs to rotary guys, who has run a load of NITROMETHANE thru one yet??, its time the full alky guys should try it! that is no gasoline, 80% methonal--20% nitro as a starter, nitro burns cooler as you get it fatter, its chamber pressure that kills the engine not heat with nitro. anywho my suppers on the table. kick it around. it may be the next level. RON

BDC

Hmmmm, ok. Do you have anything datalog wise during the time you were setting this up and getting things going? I'm curious to see some test data; I thrive off of it.

B

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one Howard. I'm not implying it will wash all of it away, but I have run it, and seen it. My guess is no-one you've spoke to has run it on a rotary with any real mileage behind it. While I haven't had any with 20k on them either, what I have seen has shown me that over the long haul you'll be getting excessive wear. I don't care what someone sees on their piston motor. People reading this thread need to keep it in mind. As I'm sure most in here are looking at it as a way to extend the life of their motor as well as get power out of it. It is far better at removing oil from your combustion chamber than gas. You cant even use the same type of oil for premix. Try telling people to run only half their premix and see if they notice any excessive wear on teardown. Saying it wont remove premix is wrong. (I'm not saying wash it all away) And until someone can show they've run it for reasonable mileage on a rotary with no excessive wear, not at the strip for a season, I'll continue to say water is a better street setup. Again I'm not knocking alcohol at all or you, I run full methonal setups here, it has it's place. But for those who are looking for det suppression water is it. For those looking for more power alcohol is a good way to go. I've run both here, I like both. I think they both have their place. Not knocking anyone. Heck run 50/50 then we'll all agree

-S-

Pimp Hand

iTrader: (3)

Cool the first 2 links i posted have enough test data to make your brain hurt.

There is another study done by a DR. Kuhring in 1932, That did a side by side compare of water and water-alcohol injection in a supercharged Jag v12. I have read it in the library. But for the life of me, I can’t find it on line (with out paying for it) Any how, this study is pretty much the definitive work on this subject. You will notice its been referenced in both of the studies I linked.

If i find it online i will post the link to for ya. I got to warn ya though its difficult to follow. I have read it several times now and I still don’t get some of it.

And I tend to agree with Zero R in that AI and WI are better suited for different tasks. So that the end goal will dictate which route a person takes. The wonderful thing is 99.9999% of all systems are compatible with both. So if you want to switch its easy as pie.

BNA_ELLIS

I must admit I am not so much into the science of stuff that works on paper or in a lab, I like real world experience.
There is no real argument whether water injection works or not.
To each there own whether they prefer 100% alcohol 50/50 mix or 100% water.
This isn't a new thing, neither is it a new thing to rotaries. Anyone who has tuned with methanal knows how well it works. Anyone who has tuned with water also knows how well it works. Most of the people who dispute the benefits of water injection are those who have never tuned with it.
The real benefits of water are not found on internet sites or forums where you can read the science behind it, the real benefits of water injection is found in tuning a car with it, where you can see the results for yourself
I have never heard of someone who tuned a car properly with water injection that was disappointed with the results.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"This isn't a new thing"

MW 50...

was a 50-50 mixture of methanol and water (thus the name) that was sprayed into the supercharger of German aircraft engines primarily for its anti-detonant effect, allowing the use of increased boost pressures. Secondary effects were cooling of the engine and charge cooling. Higher boost was only effective at altitudes below the full throttle height, where the supercharger could still provide additional boost pressure that was otherwise wasted, while the smaller secondary effects were useful even above that altitude.

MW 50 is something of a misnomer, as it is actually a mixture of three fluids; 50% methanol acting primarily to achieve optimum anti-detonant effect, secondarily as an anti-freeze, 49.5% water, and 0.5% Schutzöl 39, an oil-based anti-corrosion additive. The similar MW 30 increased the water to 69.5 and decreased methanol to 30%. This increased the cooling performance but made it easier to freeze, intended to be used for lower-altitude missions.

The effect of MW 50 injection could be dramatic. Simply turning on the system allowed the engine to pull in more air due to the charge cooling effect, boosting performance by about 100 hp on the BMW 801.

However the MW 50 also allowed the supercharger to be run at much higher boost levels as well, for a combined increase of 500hp. At sea level this allowed the 1,600 hp engine to run at over 2,000 hp. MW 50 was fully effective up to about 6,000 m, above which it added only about 4% extra power, due largely to charge cooling.

Aircraft generally carried enough MW 50 for about 10 minutes of use, allowing them to increase their climb rate for interception missions. Fittings for MW 50 first appeared on the BMW 801D in 1942, but it never went into production for this engine because the cylinder heads developed micro-cracks when MW 50 was used. Instead, the DB 605-engined Messerschmitt Bf 109 was fitted with an MW 50 injection system. Later engines designs all included the fittings as well, notably the Junkers Jumo 213, which relied on it in order to reduce non-boosted performance and tune the supercharger for higher altitudes.

MW 50 was not the only charge cooling system to be used by the Germans. Some engines dedicated to high altitude included an intercooler instead, as they would be needing the cooling for longer periods of time. The 801D also included the ability to spray gasoline into the supercharger, in place of the MW 50, and while this was not as effective it did increase boost without the complexity of the additional tanking and plumbing. Additionally many of the late-war engines also included a system for high-altitude boost, GM 1, which was intended to add oxygen instead of improve boost levels.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MW_50"

thanks: j9fd3s @ nopistons-auxiliary injection section...

hondahater

iTrader: (2)

nice read Kind of wondering about why the cylinder heads developed those micro-cracks?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

dick lambert sent me a hard copy of the following piece in 02. both Dick and I were struck by the eye-popping horsepower numbers obtainable from adding higher octane... of course i elected to upgrade my fuel using AI- methanol. the article deals with a basic piston engine but the engineering directly translates to our rotaries. the article did have a toyotaperformance.com URL and is probably authored by them...

Fuel Octane vs. HP

03/13/98

In turbocharged engines there is a fine balancing act when it comes to making a lot of power on low octane fuel. In most cases, ignition timing must be retarded as the boost pressure rises above a critical point and finally there reaches a further point where the engine simply loses power. If the timing was not retarded with increasing boost, destructive preignition or detonation would occur. Normal combustion is characterized by smooth, even burning of the fuel/air mixture. Detonation is characterized by rapid, uncontrolled temperature and pressure rises more closely akin to an explosion. It's effects are similar to taking a hammer to the top of your pistons.

Most engines make maximum power when peak cylinder pressures are obtained with the crankshaft around 15 degrees after TDC. Experimentation with increasing boost and decreasing timing basically alters where and how much force is produced on the crankshaft. Severely retarded timing causes high exhaust gas temperatures which can lead to preignition and exhaust valve and turbo damage.

We have a hypothetical engine. It's a 2.0L, 4 valve per cylinder, 4 cylinder type with a 9.0 to 1 compression ratio and it's turbocharged. On the dyno, the motor puts out 200hp at 4psi boost with the timing at the stock setting of 35 degrees on 92 octane pump gas with an air/fuel ratio of 14 to 1. We retard the timing to 30 degrees and can now run 7psi and make 225hp before detonation occurs. Now we richen the mixture to 12 to 1 AFR and find we can get 8psi and 235 hp before detonation occurs. The last thing we can consider is to lower the compression ratio to 7 to1. Back on the dyno, we can now run 10psi with 33 degrees of timing with an AFR of 12 to 1 and we get 270 hp on the best pull.

We decide to do a test with our 9 to 1 compression ratio using some 118 octane leaded race gas. The best pull is 490 hp with 35 degrees of timing at 21 psi. On the 7 to 1 engine, we manage 560 hp with 35 degrees of timing at 25psi. To get totally stupid, we fit some larger injectors and remap the EFI system for126 octane methanol. At 30psi we get 700hp with 35 degrees of timing!

While all of these figures are hypothetical, they are very representative of the gains to be had using high octane fuel. Simply by changing fuel we took the 7 to 1 engine from 270 to 700 hp.

From all of the changes made, we can deduce the effect certain changes on hp;

Retarding the ignition timing allows slightly more boost to be run and gain of 12.5%.

Richening the mixture allows slightly more boost to be run for a small hp gain however, past about 11.5 to 1 AFR most engines will start to lose power and even encounter rich misfire.

Lowering the compression ratio allows more boost to be run with less retard for a substantial hp gain.

Increasing the octane rating of the fuel has a massive effect on maximum obtainable hp.

We have seen that there are limits on what can be done running pump gas on an engine with a relatively high compression ratio. High compression engines are therefore poor candidates for high boost pressures on pump fuel. On high octane fuels, the compression ratio becomes relatively unimportant. Ultimate hp levels on high octane fuel are mainly determined by the physical strength of the engine. This was clearly demonstrated in the turbo Formula 1 era of a decade ago where 1.5L engines were producing up to 1100 hp at 60psi on a witches brew of aromatics. Most fully prepared street engines of this displacement would have trouble producing half of this power for a short time, even with many racing parts fitted.

Most factory turbocharged engines rely on a mix of relatively low compression ratios, mild boost and a dose of ignition retard under boost to avoid detonation. Power outputs on these engines are not stellar but these motors can usually be seriously thrashed without damage. Trying to exceed the factory outputs by any appreciable margins without higher octane fuel usually results in some type of engine failure. Remember, the factory spent many millions engineering a reasonable compromise in power, emissions, fuel economy and reliability for the readily available pump fuel. Despite what many people think, they probably don't know as much about this topic as the engineers do.

One last method of increasing power on turbo engines running on low octane fuel is water injection. This method was evaluated scientifically by H. Ricardo in the 1930s on a dyno and showed considerable promise. He was able to double power output on the same fuel with the aid of water injection.

First widespread use of water injection was in WW2 on supercharged and turbocharged aircraft engines for takeoff and emergency power increases. The water was usually mixed with 50% methanol and enough was on hand for 10-20 minutes use. Water/methanol injection was widely used on the mighty turbocompound engines of the '50s and '60s before the advent of the jet engine. In the automotive world, it was used in the '70s and '80s when turbos suddenly became cool again and where EFI and computer controlled ignitions were still a bit crude. Some Formula 1 teams experimented with water injection for qualifying with success until banned.

My personal experience with water injection is considerable. I had several turbo cars fitted with it. One 2.2 liter Celica with a Rajay turbo, Weber carb and no intercooler or internal engine mods ran 13.3 at 103 on street rubber on pump gas back in 1987. This was accomplished at 15psi. With the water injection switched off, I could only run about 5 psi before the engine started to ping. I think you might see water injection controlled by microchips, catch on again in the coming years on aftermarket street turbo installations. It works.

R.F.

Pimp Hand

iTrader: (3)

15 Psi with a carb and no IC sounds a little fishy to me. I guess if he had a garden hose spraying in there it could be done.

Mad props to him if he actualy did that.

sdminus

We ran a 12a FB on high comp rotors with 16.6 psi of boost on a t3 turbo on a carb and AI.

Scott

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

after being off the road (rain & repairs) since sept 7, i am back testing alcohol.

being as i have a 10.5 to 1 AFR target and on the 7th i was in the low 9s, after removing as much as 15% pump initially, i removed another 5% and went out for a drive.

still a bit rich with afrs in the 9.8-10 range... with 23% of the pump out of the boosted portion of my map since initiating the alcohol.

i will be taking another 5% out tomorrow.

my egts, measured 1.5 inches from the motor seem unchanged so far at approx 1200 to 1250. knock is virtually non-existent at 1.

i will be raising my boost from 15.5 psi to higher levels tomorrow.

it is interesting that both BDC and i have so far found the Alkycontrol system to be very friendly to our rotaries. the fuel delivery curve that keys off a 3 bar map sensor seems to parallel our pump curves so there is surprisingly less tuning required than i would have thought.

i do need to get my egts up into the 1500-1550 area and will continue trimming the fuel, raising the boost and eventually advancing the timing from the 13 igl, 11 split setting.

stay tuned,

howard coleman

BDC

I'm taking the FC on a road trip tomorrow from DFW to Birmingham, AL. I'll have two gallons of methanol at my disposal in the event I want to try going from my ~80/20 ratio to something a bit richer on the alcohol side. More to come.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i think i'd be advancing the timing first, you know get it a little closer to "ideal" 20-24btdc?

coolingmist

The pump is a shurflo diaphragm pump, it will pulse. Once the maximum pressure is reached the pressure switch on the pump will shut the pump off until the pressure drops down. This is inherit in the design of the pump. Even though its tuns off and on quick, its still injecting. The only way to eliminate that is to get an accumulator or bypass the switch (not recommended).

Controller kits tend not to pulse as much, but with any kit if you have a shurflo pump that is not running in bypass mode it will shut off once it hits the full pressure on the pressure switch.

Thanks.

crispeed

How about 25psi on 93 octane with no I/C due to it being a 'draw through' carb kit on a 13B with 9.5:1 rotors injecting methanol between the carb and turbo.

jacobcartmill

iTrader: (6)

wow this is very interesting... i'm ready for the updates!

Pimp Hand

iTrader: (3)

Ok, I never said it couldn’t be done. Nor did I state it was "impossible". Only that it seemed a little fishy. I’m not calling bull ****. But I also don’t know if I believe it.

I don’t have much experience with "draw through" carbs on a turbo app. I would like to see the set up. I would assume it had to be a pretty large CFM carb to support 25 psi. (Assuming a healthy HP) And what % of meth was used? I would also be interested the booster design. Was it an annular discharge design? Or a multy step venturi setup? Tuning a carb for this application would be a SUPREAM pain in the ***. Each circuit would have to be spot on during the transition from circuit to circuit, unless it ran pig rich every where. Other wise you would get holes in the afr’s all over the place.

Pimp Hand

iTrader: (3)

Hey BDC did you read the 2 studies i posted?

crispeed

Well that was way back in the late 80's. It was a holley 850cfm DP. No widebands or dynos back then. Jetting was rich as possible to make it run smooth. Primary to secondary transition was perfect. One of the benefits of drawthrough is the carb does not need to be boost reference so it gives as much fuel as the turbo sucks. Methanol percentage was also to the limit of a rich misfire.
Can't really remember the exact jetting but it was trial and error by simply increasing jet sizes. Also the Methanol was injected using a NOS plate under the carb.