80% Pump----- 20% Methanol
09-11-06, 04:02 PM
#51
Special thanks to BDC and Howard Coleman. For making methanol injection much easier to understand, for all who follow in your footsteps. All these links and info in one thread is something very needed.
Alkycontrol- pm me your number. I want your methanol kit. I will be installing methanol injection in 2 FC drift cars. Where intake temp, water/oil temp and big power is primary concern for obvious reasons.
Post some pics of the set up.
Alkycontrol- pm me your number. I want your methanol kit. I will be installing methanol injection in 2 FC drift cars. Where intake temp, water/oil temp and big power is primary concern for obvious reasons.
Post some pics of the set up.
09-11-06, 05:28 PM
#52
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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the domestic crowd has been on to this for yeeeaars! mainly in the buick/grand national scene.
here we have a lot of cars using 50/50 meth injection and running as high as 30psi on pump 93!!!!! these are piston cars, mostly supras with large single turbo setups. but the results are very verrry awesome! i have been trying to convince rotards of this forever and even back when bdc was 100% against this
THIS IS THE WAY TO MAKE BIG POWERRRRR WOOWOOOOOO
p.s. F#$K Race Gas!
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/
here we have a lot of cars using 50/50 meth injection and running as high as 30psi on pump 93!!!!! these are piston cars, mostly supras with large single turbo setups. but the results are very verrry awesome! i have been trying to convince rotards of this forever and even back when bdc was 100% against this
THIS IS THE WAY TO MAKE BIG POWERRRRR WOOWOOOOOO
p.s. F#$K Race Gas!
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/
09-11-06, 06:06 PM
#53
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Hey guys, I have been reading a lot. There is a very nice thread that talks about this that I thought you might find interesting. Here is the link https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...4&page=1&pp=15
Have a nice read.
Have a nice read.
09-11-06, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jgtcspec7
Special thanks to BDC and Howard Coleman. For making methanol injection much easier to understand, for all who follow in your footsteps. All these links and info in one thread is something very needed.
Alkycontrol- pm me your number. I want your methanol kit. I will be installing methanol injection in 2 FC drift cars. Where intake temp, water/oil temp and big power is primary concern for obvious reasons.
Post some pics of the set up.
Alkycontrol- pm me your number. I want your methanol kit. I will be installing methanol injection in 2 FC drift cars. Where intake temp, water/oil temp and big power is primary concern for obvious reasons.
Post some pics of the set up.
09-12-06, 12:35 AM
#57
Thank you for taking the time to type out what I was too lazy to earlier. Excellent post, best in the thread. I think there is definitely a place for both as stated, but I think they are two seperate applications. I think if your main reason is for det supression, water is the way to go on the street in a rotary, period.. mostly for what you said. It allows for a much more controlled burn, it is as cheap and maintenance free as it gets. Where as if your looking at it for more power, then you start looking at methonal. You will lose power on water (WHEN COMPARED TO OTHER FUELS ), but you can get more than you would on straight pump alone, with a good setup. This is due to being able to run higher boost with less heat if you choose to go that route. Methonal will wash your combustion chambers clean of any lubricating premix. (Something piston motors don't really deal with to the same extent we do.) If your a drag racing guy that is fine, if your a guy who plans to not tear down his motor frequently, you will need to run a seperate type of oil just for the methonal if you want to run it in decent amounts. Otherwise you can have excessive seal wear. You can still detonate on alcohol also if your too rich with it. Something that wont happen with water.
-S-
), but you can get more than you would on straight pump alone, with a good setup. This is due to being able to run higher boost with less heat if you choose to go that route. Methonal will wash your combustion chambers clean of any lubricating premix. (Something piston motors don't really deal with to the same extent we do.) If your a drag racing guy that is fine, if your a guy who plans to not tear down his motor frequently, you will need to run a seperate type of oil just for the methonal if you want to run it in decent amounts. Otherwise you can have excessive seal wear. You can still detonate on alcohol also if your too rich with it. Something that wont happen with water. -S-
Originally Posted by Pimp Hand
What temp dose water auto fire at?
I’m not trying to be an ***. But that question drives home the point I am going to make.
Not to take any thing away from ALK. But pure water injection has a strong argument in its favor. But they work in different ways.
In effect ALK injection works to raise the DET. resistance of the fuel, with a secondary effect of lowering the charge temp. With large FMIC’s the lowering of the charge temp is not as crucial, as it is in other applications. IMO ALK injection is best at raising the fuels DET resistance in order to deal with the very high cylinder temp/pressure produced by high boost levels. Of course this is a somewhat simplistic explanation. But I’m keeping it simple for the masses.
Water injection on the other hand works some what different. Water injection’s primary function is to remove heat from the compression/combustion strokes. Thus lowering the level of heat the fuel is exposed to prior to ignition. And water injection slows down the combustion process during the combustion stroke, which further promotes stable combustion vs. uncontrolled combustion. (DET) With a secondary function of lowering charge temp. But I would be the first to point out that ALK is more effective at charge temp cooling than water is, primarily because water has a much higher boiling point than methanol or ethanol.
Both methods of fighting detonation, either raising the fuels detonation resistance, or lowering the level of heat the fuel is exposed to can be HIGHLY EFECTIVE. Providing the system is constructed and tuned correctly. But what sold me on water injection is rather simple. Setting aside all of the science arguments. Water is much safer to deal with. IE its not corrosive(I can use any pump I want), nor is it highly flammable. (I don’t have to worry about catching on fire if I get into a wreck) And its DIRT CHEEP!! Granted meth is not very expensive. But that’s 1 thing less I have to find a supplier for. And the final issue I have with ALK is storage. Because it’s a nasty chemical you have to keep kids away, keep fire away. It’s just dangerous to have hanging around. Of course if you don’t have kids and you’re not a smoker then these are non issues. But it’s still dangerous to have a 55 gal drum of this stuff sitting in your garage.
Let’s keep it real here there is 1 draw back to using water injection. That is loss of power. That’s right you make less HP on water than ALK. And the reason is simple- heat + pressure = HP. Remove a lot of heat and your HP drops. But the loss isn’t bad. According to the calculations, an injection rate of 150ml/minute of water extracts almost 8 BHP (7.58 BHP for those that want to know) equivalent of heat energy during evaporation. In contrast, Methanol cost 3.73 BHP, Ethanol cost 3.04 BHP, and Gasoline cost 1.18 BHP. That’s the price you pay for the convince and safety of using water.
Personally I lose about 33 BHP to water (640cc/min at peak cylinder pressure) I use a Aquamist system 2s mapped 3D from a 5v feed from the map sensor. So i lose most of that HP at tourq(SP) peak. I ramp down the injection rate 15%-20% per 1k rpm both above and below tourq(SP) peak. So i minimize the losses due to unnecessary high injection rates at low rpm and low boost psi.
Please don’t misunderstand me I’m not knocking ALKY in its ability to perform. And I’m truly happy that you guys have found a solution to DET that works for you. Actually im not knocking any one here. Im just pointing out water has its avantages.
Finaly I need to give credit where credit is due. Big PROPS to Rice Racing and all of his posts for getting me interested in this subject.
I’m not trying to be an ***. But that question drives home the point I am going to make.
Not to take any thing away from ALK. But pure water injection has a strong argument in its favor. But they work in different ways.
In effect ALK injection works to raise the DET. resistance of the fuel, with a secondary effect of lowering the charge temp. With large FMIC’s the lowering of the charge temp is not as crucial, as it is in other applications. IMO ALK injection is best at raising the fuels DET resistance in order to deal with the very high cylinder temp/pressure produced by high boost levels. Of course this is a somewhat simplistic explanation. But I’m keeping it simple for the masses.
Water injection on the other hand works some what different. Water injection’s primary function is to remove heat from the compression/combustion strokes. Thus lowering the level of heat the fuel is exposed to prior to ignition. And water injection slows down the combustion process during the combustion stroke, which further promotes stable combustion vs. uncontrolled combustion. (DET) With a secondary function of lowering charge temp. But I would be the first to point out that ALK is more effective at charge temp cooling than water is, primarily because water has a much higher boiling point than methanol or ethanol.
Both methods of fighting detonation, either raising the fuels detonation resistance, or lowering the level of heat the fuel is exposed to can be HIGHLY EFECTIVE. Providing the system is constructed and tuned correctly. But what sold me on water injection is rather simple. Setting aside all of the science arguments. Water is much safer to deal with. IE its not corrosive(I can use any pump I want), nor is it highly flammable. (I don’t have to worry about catching on fire if I get into a wreck) And its DIRT CHEEP!! Granted meth is not very expensive. But that’s 1 thing less I have to find a supplier for. And the final issue I have with ALK is storage. Because it’s a nasty chemical you have to keep kids away, keep fire away. It’s just dangerous to have hanging around. Of course if you don’t have kids and you’re not a smoker then these are non issues. But it’s still dangerous to have a 55 gal drum of this stuff sitting in your garage.
Let’s keep it real here there is 1 draw back to using water injection. That is loss of power. That’s right you make less HP on water than ALK. And the reason is simple- heat + pressure = HP. Remove a lot of heat and your HP drops. But the loss isn’t bad. According to the calculations, an injection rate of 150ml/minute of water extracts almost 8 BHP (7.58 BHP for those that want to know) equivalent of heat energy during evaporation. In contrast, Methanol cost 3.73 BHP, Ethanol cost 3.04 BHP, and Gasoline cost 1.18 BHP. That’s the price you pay for the convince and safety of using water.
Personally I lose about 33 BHP to water (640cc/min at peak cylinder pressure) I use a Aquamist system 2s mapped 3D from a 5v feed from the map sensor. So i lose most of that HP at tourq(SP) peak. I ramp down the injection rate 15%-20% per 1k rpm both above and below tourq(SP) peak. So i minimize the losses due to unnecessary high injection rates at low rpm and low boost psi.
Please don’t misunderstand me I’m not knocking ALKY in its ability to perform. And I’m truly happy that you guys have found a solution to DET that works for you. Actually im not knocking any one here. Im just pointing out water has its avantages.
Finaly I need to give credit where credit is due. Big PROPS to Rice Racing and all of his posts for getting me interested in this subject.
Last edited by Zero R; 09-12-06 at 12:38 AM.
09-12-06, 02:00 AM
#58
Originally Posted by Pimp Hand
What temp dose water auto fire at?
I’m not trying to be an ***. But that question drives home the point I am going to make.
Not to take any thing away from ALK. But pure water injection has a strong argument in its favor. But they work in different ways.
In effect ALK injection works to raise the DET. resistance of the fuel, with a secondary effect of lowering the charge temp. With large FMIC’s the lowering of the charge temp is not as crucial, as it is in other applications. IMO ALK injection is best at raising the fuels DET resistance in order to deal with the very high cylinder temp/pressure produced by high boost levels. Of course this is a somewhat simplistic explanation. But I’m keeping it simple for the masses.
Water injection on the other hand works some what different. Water injection’s primary function is to remove heat from the compression/combustion strokes. Thus lowering the level of heat the fuel is exposed to prior to ignition. And water injection slows down the combustion process during the combustion stroke, which further promotes stable combustion vs. uncontrolled combustion. (DET) With a secondary function of lowering charge temp. But I would be the first to point out that ALK is more effective at charge temp cooling than water is, primarily because water has a much higher boiling point than methanol or ethanol.
Both methods of fighting detonation, either raising the fuels detonation resistance, or lowering the level of heat the fuel is exposed to can be HIGHLY EFECTIVE. Providing the system is constructed and tuned correctly. But what sold me on water injection is rather simple. Setting aside all of the science arguments. Water is much safer to deal with. IE its not corrosive(I can use any pump I want), nor is it highly flammable. (I don’t have to worry about catching on fire if I get into a wreck) And its DIRT CHEEP!! Granted meth is not very expensive. But that’s 1 thing less I have to find a supplier for. And the final issue I have with ALK is storage. Because it’s a nasty chemical you have to keep kids away, keep fire away. It’s just dangerous to have hanging around. Of course if you don’t have kids and you’re not a smoker then these are non issues. But it’s still dangerous to have a 55 gal drum of this stuff sitting in your garage.
Let’s keep it real here there is 1 draw back to using water injection. That is loss of power. That’s right you make less HP on water than ALK. And the reason is simple- heat + pressure = HP. Remove a lot of heat and your HP drops. But the loss isn’t bad. According to the calculations, an injection rate of 150ml/minute of water extracts almost 8 BHP (7.58 BHP for those that want to know) equivalent of heat energy during evaporation. In contrast, Methanol cost 3.73 BHP, Ethanol cost 3.04 BHP, and Gasoline cost 1.18 BHP. That’s the price you pay for the convince and safety of using water.
Personally I lose about 33 BHP to water (640cc/min at peak cylinder pressure) I use a Aquamist system 2s mapped 3D from a 5v feed from the map sensor. So i lose most of that HP at tourq(SP) peak. I ramp down the injection rate 15%-20% per 1k rpm both above and below tourq(SP) peak. So i minimize the losses due to unnecessary high injection rates at low rpm and low boost psi.
Please don’t misunderstand me I’m not knocking ALKY in its ability to perform. And I’m truly happy that you guys have found a solution to DET that works for you. Actually im not knocking any one here. Im just pointing out water has its avantages.
Finaly I need to give credit where credit is due. Big PROPS to Rice Racing and all of his posts for getting me interested in this subject.
I’m not trying to be an ***. But that question drives home the point I am going to make.
Not to take any thing away from ALK. But pure water injection has a strong argument in its favor. But they work in different ways.
In effect ALK injection works to raise the DET. resistance of the fuel, with a secondary effect of lowering the charge temp. With large FMIC’s the lowering of the charge temp is not as crucial, as it is in other applications. IMO ALK injection is best at raising the fuels DET resistance in order to deal with the very high cylinder temp/pressure produced by high boost levels. Of course this is a somewhat simplistic explanation. But I’m keeping it simple for the masses.
Water injection on the other hand works some what different. Water injection’s primary function is to remove heat from the compression/combustion strokes. Thus lowering the level of heat the fuel is exposed to prior to ignition. And water injection slows down the combustion process during the combustion stroke, which further promotes stable combustion vs. uncontrolled combustion. (DET) With a secondary function of lowering charge temp. But I would be the first to point out that ALK is more effective at charge temp cooling than water is, primarily because water has a much higher boiling point than methanol or ethanol.
Both methods of fighting detonation, either raising the fuels detonation resistance, or lowering the level of heat the fuel is exposed to can be HIGHLY EFECTIVE. Providing the system is constructed and tuned correctly. But what sold me on water injection is rather simple. Setting aside all of the science arguments. Water is much safer to deal with. IE its not corrosive(I can use any pump I want), nor is it highly flammable. (I don’t have to worry about catching on fire if I get into a wreck) And its DIRT CHEEP!! Granted meth is not very expensive. But that’s 1 thing less I have to find a supplier for. And the final issue I have with ALK is storage. Because it’s a nasty chemical you have to keep kids away, keep fire away. It’s just dangerous to have hanging around. Of course if you don’t have kids and you’re not a smoker then these are non issues. But it’s still dangerous to have a 55 gal drum of this stuff sitting in your garage.
Let’s keep it real here there is 1 draw back to using water injection. That is loss of power. That’s right you make less HP on water than ALK. And the reason is simple- heat + pressure = HP. Remove a lot of heat and your HP drops. But the loss isn’t bad. According to the calculations, an injection rate of 150ml/minute of water extracts almost 8 BHP (7.58 BHP for those that want to know) equivalent of heat energy during evaporation. In contrast, Methanol cost 3.73 BHP, Ethanol cost 3.04 BHP, and Gasoline cost 1.18 BHP. That’s the price you pay for the convince and safety of using water.
Personally I lose about 33 BHP to water (640cc/min at peak cylinder pressure) I use a Aquamist system 2s mapped 3D from a 5v feed from the map sensor. So i lose most of that HP at tourq(SP) peak. I ramp down the injection rate 15%-20% per 1k rpm both above and below tourq(SP) peak. So i minimize the losses due to unnecessary high injection rates at low rpm and low boost psi.
Please don’t misunderstand me I’m not knocking ALKY in its ability to perform. And I’m truly happy that you guys have found a solution to DET that works for you. Actually im not knocking any one here. Im just pointing out water has its avantages.
Finaly I need to give credit where credit is due. Big PROPS to Rice Racing and all of his posts for getting me interested in this subject.
Although you loose 33hp you are able to raise your boost higher than you would be able to on regular pump gas and run safely, therefore yielding more hp overall??
09-12-06, 06:55 AM
#59
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For those interested the new stoich for howards fuel is 13.08:1 although most of use would view this in Lambda to save the messing about and confusion.
The water and alch mix is a very interesting one. Lots of studies have been done in to this. When you add water to methanol it makes the mixture more stable to tune with. In WW2 aircraft used a water meth mix to conserve fuel under high load. i believe they could fly for 20 mins on this mixture. they were injeting internal cooling at a rate of 0.5 LBS per 1 LBS of fuel.
From what i understand they found the perfect blend to be 70:30 ( always mention alchs first)
The knock propeties of AI have less to do with actual fuel octane content when associated in this context. It is more due to the incylinder cooling at the PPP. ( peak pressure point )
Neat methanol has undesirable pre ignition propeties when injected neat in to a over rich of lean mixture tha is why in the military they mixed it with water. pre- ignition is also brought on by the use of platinum ( methanol and all oxygen based fuels dont like it ) So be wary of you platinum spark plugs also the heat rating is gonna be very important.
It has been proved that a mixture is effective at avoiding abnormal combustion and supports higher boost.
Alchs are a lazy burner so be prepared to alter you timing by a lot to get the correct burn pattern.
I wouldnt worry to much about the auto fire temps since we are all still runing petrol as fuel and not neat alch.
The water and alch mix is a very interesting one. Lots of studies have been done in to this. When you add water to methanol it makes the mixture more stable to tune with. In WW2 aircraft used a water meth mix to conserve fuel under high load. i believe they could fly for 20 mins on this mixture. they were injeting internal cooling at a rate of 0.5 LBS per 1 LBS of fuel.
From what i understand they found the perfect blend to be 70:30 ( always mention alchs first)
The knock propeties of AI have less to do with actual fuel octane content when associated in this context. It is more due to the incylinder cooling at the PPP. ( peak pressure point )
Neat methanol has undesirable pre ignition propeties when injected neat in to a over rich of lean mixture tha is why in the military they mixed it with water. pre- ignition is also brought on by the use of platinum ( methanol and all oxygen based fuels dont like it ) So be wary of you platinum spark plugs also the heat rating is gonna be very important.
It has been proved that a mixture is effective at avoiding abnormal combustion and supports higher boost.
Alchs are a lazy burner so be prepared to alter you timing by a lot to get the correct burn pattern.
I wouldnt worry to much about the auto fire temps since we are all still runing petrol as fuel and not neat alch.
09-12-06, 07:37 AM
#61
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
my compliments to all participants in this thread.
normally as various types of AI injectants are discussed in the same thread the situation deteriorates to something resembling a wild west social with the sheep herders and the cattle guys.
as my research showed both alcohol and water have their + and - and it just depends on your objectives so there is no need to get snippy (Fargo). let's keep it in the engineering mode and we will all benefit.
the only thing that doesn't make sense is not running AI.
i want to make a follow up to sean's remark re alcohol washing your combustion clean of any premix. sometimes things are a matter of degree and it is all about where that point is on the scale. yes, alcohol is a solvent but used to the extent it is as an AI injectant it is no biggy. my alcohol fires at 5.5 psi and above so most of the time there is no alcohol present. it is also worth noting that gasoline is a solvent.
while there may be issues w alcohol used as AI in the rotary, additional chamber/seal wear isn't one of them.
BTW, Carlos Lopez suggests you cruise pump close to stoich just so you don't accumulate carbon in your chambers so there is less promotion of pre-ignition... so the cleaning you get with both water and alcohol can be a positive... less carbon, less hot spots to promote auto-ignition.
as to detonating w alcohol... you can detonate with anything flammable... especially with pump's auto-ignition point at 500 degrees v methanol at 878! since methanol's stoich is 5.6 v pump at 14.7 you need to be really rich to create problems.
on my initial 80% pump 20% alcohol i ran a low AFR of 9.2 and there was no knock, no hint of misfire. i am shooting for 10.5 AFR at this point. on 100% pump last year my motor would misfire below 10.0 to 1.
caveat: last year i ran one Jacobs Rotary Pro Pak on my IGL w a T2 coil. this year i am running two Jacobs FC3000 (same as RPP) and two MSD HVC PN8253 coils, one each on the leading plugs, along w the NGK 6725 10.5 plugs w MSD Super Conductor wires. so my ignition should be covered.
on other point re Alcohol...
fuel requirements and hardware will be rethought. i run 850/1600 w a Cosmo pump and a Kenne Bell Boost A Pump. i digitally log fuel pressure on my pfc-datalogit so i KNOW my fuel situation in all 400 cells. before alcohol, i was routinely running injector duty cycles over 80% at the top of my runs. my duty cycles with alcohol have dropped into the 60s. my guess is i will remove at least another 5% pump by the time i am tuned.
that presents new options for the fuel system, for instance maybe downsizing the 1600 secondaries that cause staging problems. perhaps not running fuel pumps that sound like you have another engine onboard.
howard coleman
normally as various types of AI injectants are discussed in the same thread the situation deteriorates to something resembling a wild west social with the sheep herders and the cattle guys.
as my research showed both alcohol and water have their + and - and it just depends on your objectives so there is no need to get snippy (Fargo). let's keep it in the engineering mode and we will all benefit.
the only thing that doesn't make sense is not running AI.
i want to make a follow up to sean's remark re alcohol washing your combustion clean of any premix. sometimes things are a matter of degree and it is all about where that point is on the scale. yes, alcohol is a solvent but used to the extent it is as an AI injectant it is no biggy. my alcohol fires at 5.5 psi and above so most of the time there is no alcohol present. it is also worth noting that gasoline is a solvent.
while there may be issues w alcohol used as AI in the rotary, additional chamber/seal wear isn't one of them.
BTW, Carlos Lopez suggests you cruise pump close to stoich just so you don't accumulate carbon in your chambers so there is less promotion of pre-ignition... so the cleaning you get with both water and alcohol can be a positive... less carbon, less hot spots to promote auto-ignition.
as to detonating w alcohol... you can detonate with anything flammable... especially with pump's auto-ignition point at 500 degrees v methanol at 878! since methanol's stoich is 5.6 v pump at 14.7 you need to be really rich to create problems.
on my initial 80% pump 20% alcohol i ran a low AFR of 9.2 and there was no knock, no hint of misfire. i am shooting for 10.5 AFR at this point. on 100% pump last year my motor would misfire below 10.0 to 1.
caveat: last year i ran one Jacobs Rotary Pro Pak on my IGL w a T2 coil. this year i am running two Jacobs FC3000 (same as RPP) and two MSD HVC PN8253 coils, one each on the leading plugs, along w the NGK 6725 10.5 plugs w MSD Super Conductor wires. so my ignition should be covered.
on other point re Alcohol...
fuel requirements and hardware will be rethought. i run 850/1600 w a Cosmo pump and a Kenne Bell Boost A Pump. i digitally log fuel pressure on my pfc-datalogit so i KNOW my fuel situation in all 400 cells. before alcohol, i was routinely running injector duty cycles over 80% at the top of my runs. my duty cycles with alcohol have dropped into the 60s. my guess is i will remove at least another 5% pump by the time i am tuned.
that presents new options for the fuel system, for instance maybe downsizing the 1600 secondaries that cause staging problems. perhaps not running fuel pumps that sound like you have another engine onboard.
howard coleman
09-12-06, 09:35 AM
#62
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
written by brian cain and originally posted on the teamFC3s site... i thought all would appreciate the following:
Why our rotaries blow up and how to solve this problem
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I couldn't find a better section of the forum to post this on and since it indirectly involves alcohol as an engine fuel I felt it would be most beneficial here. Forgive me for any lack of cohesiveness or organization in what I'm about to write. It's 2:30am, I'm very tired yet my mind is swimming with this stuff, and I am going to just put it all out there.
The rotary community as a whole is plagued by a problem with engine reliability issues, namely the lack thereof. Generally speaking, this does not apply to non-turbo applications. It's mainly a turbo thing. I believe the blame is a combination of things -- one, a false sense of security that we've sold ourselves into thinking we can run lots of boost and make lots of power out of this dinky motor even though we've not given the proper attention needed into engineering the system as a whole, looking at many parts and finding reliable, solid ways to "balance" this all out.
With every piece of my being, I am utterly sold on the notion that these engines fail due to pre-ignition during or at the tail-end of the compression stroke because the fuel that's mixed with the then-compressing charge, as it builds up heat (pressure is proportional to temperature), reaches a point of temperature and autoignites, firing the combustion event early, before a timed spark from the spark plug. It's not detonation; it's pre-ignition due to spontaneous, auto-ignition of the fuel. It makes perfect sense. This is why the old style turbo rotors (8.5:1 compression ratio) can "take more boost". It's why it's generally dangerous to run a turbocharger on a higher compression engine, say with 9.4:1 or 9.7:1 NA rotors. The higher the compression ratio, the higher the effective pressure generated during the compression stroke, therefore the higher temperatures. At some point, barring any heat-dispersion problem related to "too hot" of a spark plug, the fuel just blows up on its own because of the surrounding heat in the combustion chamber -- the temperature of the two side plates, the rotor housing, the temperature of the oil that's filled the rotors to pull heat out at the faces, as well as the temperature of the intake charge at the beginning of that compression stroke. Auto-ignition seems to be the devil's finger here. Aside from any additive benefits such as lead, race fuels that are within the 100-117 octane rating have substantially higher auto-ignition temperatures over pump fuels. Pump fuels, based on what I've read and while I'm not sure if it's specific to a particular octane, have an average auto-ignition temperature of 491*F which is approximately 9* cooler than the average temperature of the rotors under load based on one SAE paper I've read. Peculiar.
It's *all* in the fuel!
Change that one key factor, and magic happens. Carl Byck's road race car, tuned with a 5* split and a 17* leading advance, 25psi of boost, 506rwhp on a series 5 turbo 4-port block. Runs 20lbs of boost for 20 minutes at a time on a road race course with oil and water temperatures through the roof. Does the motor let go? Nope. How does it do it? 111 octane leaded race fuel. Unwaveringly reliable compared to setups 250hp under running nowhere near the load.
We modify these cars the wrong way. We're looking at it wrongly when we should be looking at it like a complex array of simple systems and parts, all balanced together to produce a certain output. If one is out of whack, then the whole thing falls apart at some point. We're putting humongous, front-mounted intercoolers in our radiator dams, effectively blocking the air needing to get to the oil cooler and radiator, therefore raising base engine temperatures with respect to the water in the jacketting as well as the oil running throughout the system. Although the air temps are lower, the engine internals are much hotter, therefore challenging the knock-resistance of the fuel mixed in the charge.
The density of the O2 molecules per volume that's entering the compression stroke and being fully compression does not change the temperature of combustion -- only temperature based factors do. Running more boost in as much as the density of that charge has doubled doesn't yield higher temperatures; the higher temperatures come from the challenges incurred when pressurizing air at the turbo's compressor in the first place -- temperature is proportional to pressure, as I've said before. The typical compressor can belt out air temperatures in the 300* - 400*F range. Intercooling helps but potentially comes at the cost of starving the radiator and any oil-cooling heat exchangers for high-pressure, ambient-temperature "ram" air, thereby dramatically reducing their efficiency.
Air-to-water intercooler, built in late 1998 and tested throughout 2001... the underdog, unorthodox setup that "wasn't supposed to work" according to the then well-known "experts" belts out over 420hp on several runs, back to back, on the dyno along with 320ft/lbs of torque. 14-15psi of boost, standard-shaft Turbonetics 60-1 HIFI compressor w/ an HKS cast manifold (undivided) and undivided P-Trim 0.96 A/R turbine housing. Running 17* of leading advance with a 7-8* split and it never knocked one time. Manifolds still cool to the touch after a pass on the strip or dyno. Intercooler core frozen over, producing condensation, water temperatures in the 40-50*F range. Bouncing off the 8100rpm rev limiter, highly reliable setup, EGT's in the high 1200's to approximately 1300* range, EGT probe post-downpipe. Oh, and one more thing.. A2W core converted from stock core, complete with 1 7/8" intake piping. Impossible, huh?
And recorded tonight...
10" vacuum, 3300rpm, 80mph, EGT's 1300*F while cruising at light load.
15.5psi of boost, 6500rpm, ~95mph, EGT's 1300*F while under heavy load with a mixture of 80% gasoline and 20% methanol, sustaining a re-calculated AFR of approximately 10.40:1.
Dealing with a problem of having too volatile of a fuel in the combustion chamber by throwing more of that same volatile fuel at it is ridiculous and oxymoronic. We don't stop a murderer by overwhelmingly-smothering him with targets to shoot. There's no reason for us to run such rich mixtures in the high 10's to mid 11's:1 with fuel injection, thereby forcing us to use higher capacity fuel injectors and more capable fuel pumps. We have to get the intake air temperatures down, we have to focus on oil temperatures and water temperatures in the motor (the core, critical stuff; oil cools 1/3 of this motor!), and we must use a quality fuel that has a relatively high auto-ignition temperature so as to prevent pre-ignitive knock.
Water injection, for the purpose of raising the anti-knock index of a fuel, is worthless. It also must be atomized to a very high pressure (in an already pressurized system) to even have its specific heat and latent heat of evaporation properties be of any use at all. It is inert in the combustion chamber, providing 0 BTU's as it does not combust. It can also hydro-lock a motor if the solenoid that's keeping the high-pressurized system from hitting the nozzle fails. The only benefit of water in all practical application is its ability to pull some heat out of the intake charge, and even then its arguable how much it can based upon the amount of water entering the chamber thereafter.
Alcohol (ethyl and methyl alcohol specifically), on the other hand, does not require atomization via a pre-pressurized system as its flash point is approximately 54*, making it turn to a vapour instantly in the intake system even at very low amounts and also removing "staging" problems. It provides BTU's (about less than half of gasoline, lb per lb), burns "cold", dramatically lowers intake air temperatures, can literally act as an intercooler on its own (and does on alcohol-fed race setups), has an extremely high latent heat of evapouration as well as an extremely high auto-ignition temperature, giving an effective octane rating as high as 140.
All of these Buick GN's and other cars commonly sitting in the 10sec 1/4 mi range (3500lb car), and even one just now hitting 9.90's, all running 93 octane pump gas and methanol near the same ratios we are just now beginning to experiment with. 93 octane can be used when in conjuinction with methanol as the overall octane (knock-resistance) of the mixed fuel, depending on this ratio, is raised substantially; same with the auto-ignition temperature. If the auto-ignition temperature of this "soup" is that of race fuel, not to mention the other temperature-reducing benefits, the engine can be tuned with "race-gas-like" spark advance. Voila -- volatile fuel for low loads such as tip-in, start/stopping, warm-up, idle, and cruising to the parts store... and then a mega-reliable, mega powerful engine in boost. Shazam!
Julio Don is correct. EGT's are the key. Air/Fuel ratios are temporary; EGT's are what need to be looked at like a hawk when tuning methanol and pump gas under load.
Gasoline -- Auto-ignition temperature of sub 500*F.
Various race gasolines -- auto-ignition temperature ~660*F.
Methanol -- Auto-ignition temperature 878*F!!!!! The motherload of all internal combustion fuels!
B
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Brian D. Cain -/- bdc@bdcmotorsports.com
Performance Rotary Engines, Specialized Porting, EFI System Installation & Tuning
Why our rotaries blow up and how to solve this problem
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I couldn't find a better section of the forum to post this on and since it indirectly involves alcohol as an engine fuel I felt it would be most beneficial here. Forgive me for any lack of cohesiveness or organization in what I'm about to write. It's 2:30am, I'm very tired yet my mind is swimming with this stuff, and I am going to just put it all out there.
The rotary community as a whole is plagued by a problem with engine reliability issues, namely the lack thereof. Generally speaking, this does not apply to non-turbo applications. It's mainly a turbo thing. I believe the blame is a combination of things -- one, a false sense of security that we've sold ourselves into thinking we can run lots of boost and make lots of power out of this dinky motor even though we've not given the proper attention needed into engineering the system as a whole, looking at many parts and finding reliable, solid ways to "balance" this all out.
With every piece of my being, I am utterly sold on the notion that these engines fail due to pre-ignition during or at the tail-end of the compression stroke because the fuel that's mixed with the then-compressing charge, as it builds up heat (pressure is proportional to temperature), reaches a point of temperature and autoignites, firing the combustion event early, before a timed spark from the spark plug. It's not detonation; it's pre-ignition due to spontaneous, auto-ignition of the fuel. It makes perfect sense. This is why the old style turbo rotors (8.5:1 compression ratio) can "take more boost". It's why it's generally dangerous to run a turbocharger on a higher compression engine, say with 9.4:1 or 9.7:1 NA rotors. The higher the compression ratio, the higher the effective pressure generated during the compression stroke, therefore the higher temperatures. At some point, barring any heat-dispersion problem related to "too hot" of a spark plug, the fuel just blows up on its own because of the surrounding heat in the combustion chamber -- the temperature of the two side plates, the rotor housing, the temperature of the oil that's filled the rotors to pull heat out at the faces, as well as the temperature of the intake charge at the beginning of that compression stroke. Auto-ignition seems to be the devil's finger here. Aside from any additive benefits such as lead, race fuels that are within the 100-117 octane rating have substantially higher auto-ignition temperatures over pump fuels. Pump fuels, based on what I've read and while I'm not sure if it's specific to a particular octane, have an average auto-ignition temperature of 491*F which is approximately 9* cooler than the average temperature of the rotors under load based on one SAE paper I've read. Peculiar.
It's *all* in the fuel!
Change that one key factor, and magic happens. Carl Byck's road race car, tuned with a 5* split and a 17* leading advance, 25psi of boost, 506rwhp on a series 5 turbo 4-port block. Runs 20lbs of boost for 20 minutes at a time on a road race course with oil and water temperatures through the roof. Does the motor let go? Nope. How does it do it? 111 octane leaded race fuel. Unwaveringly reliable compared to setups 250hp under running nowhere near the load.
We modify these cars the wrong way. We're looking at it wrongly when we should be looking at it like a complex array of simple systems and parts, all balanced together to produce a certain output. If one is out of whack, then the whole thing falls apart at some point. We're putting humongous, front-mounted intercoolers in our radiator dams, effectively blocking the air needing to get to the oil cooler and radiator, therefore raising base engine temperatures with respect to the water in the jacketting as well as the oil running throughout the system. Although the air temps are lower, the engine internals are much hotter, therefore challenging the knock-resistance of the fuel mixed in the charge.
The density of the O2 molecules per volume that's entering the compression stroke and being fully compression does not change the temperature of combustion -- only temperature based factors do. Running more boost in as much as the density of that charge has doubled doesn't yield higher temperatures; the higher temperatures come from the challenges incurred when pressurizing air at the turbo's compressor in the first place -- temperature is proportional to pressure, as I've said before. The typical compressor can belt out air temperatures in the 300* - 400*F range. Intercooling helps but potentially comes at the cost of starving the radiator and any oil-cooling heat exchangers for high-pressure, ambient-temperature "ram" air, thereby dramatically reducing their efficiency.
Air-to-water intercooler, built in late 1998 and tested throughout 2001... the underdog, unorthodox setup that "wasn't supposed to work" according to the then well-known "experts" belts out over 420hp on several runs, back to back, on the dyno along with 320ft/lbs of torque. 14-15psi of boost, standard-shaft Turbonetics 60-1 HIFI compressor w/ an HKS cast manifold (undivided) and undivided P-Trim 0.96 A/R turbine housing. Running 17* of leading advance with a 7-8* split and it never knocked one time. Manifolds still cool to the touch after a pass on the strip or dyno. Intercooler core frozen over, producing condensation, water temperatures in the 40-50*F range. Bouncing off the 8100rpm rev limiter, highly reliable setup, EGT's in the high 1200's to approximately 1300* range, EGT probe post-downpipe. Oh, and one more thing.. A2W core converted from stock core, complete with 1 7/8" intake piping. Impossible, huh?
And recorded tonight...
10" vacuum, 3300rpm, 80mph, EGT's 1300*F while cruising at light load.
15.5psi of boost, 6500rpm, ~95mph, EGT's 1300*F while under heavy load with a mixture of 80% gasoline and 20% methanol, sustaining a re-calculated AFR of approximately 10.40:1.
Dealing with a problem of having too volatile of a fuel in the combustion chamber by throwing more of that same volatile fuel at it is ridiculous and oxymoronic. We don't stop a murderer by overwhelmingly-smothering him with targets to shoot. There's no reason for us to run such rich mixtures in the high 10's to mid 11's:1 with fuel injection, thereby forcing us to use higher capacity fuel injectors and more capable fuel pumps. We have to get the intake air temperatures down, we have to focus on oil temperatures and water temperatures in the motor (the core, critical stuff; oil cools 1/3 of this motor!), and we must use a quality fuel that has a relatively high auto-ignition temperature so as to prevent pre-ignitive knock.
Water injection, for the purpose of raising the anti-knock index of a fuel, is worthless. It also must be atomized to a very high pressure (in an already pressurized system) to even have its specific heat and latent heat of evaporation properties be of any use at all. It is inert in the combustion chamber, providing 0 BTU's as it does not combust. It can also hydro-lock a motor if the solenoid that's keeping the high-pressurized system from hitting the nozzle fails. The only benefit of water in all practical application is its ability to pull some heat out of the intake charge, and even then its arguable how much it can based upon the amount of water entering the chamber thereafter.
Alcohol (ethyl and methyl alcohol specifically), on the other hand, does not require atomization via a pre-pressurized system as its flash point is approximately 54*, making it turn to a vapour instantly in the intake system even at very low amounts and also removing "staging" problems. It provides BTU's (about less than half of gasoline, lb per lb), burns "cold", dramatically lowers intake air temperatures, can literally act as an intercooler on its own (and does on alcohol-fed race setups), has an extremely high latent heat of evapouration as well as an extremely high auto-ignition temperature, giving an effective octane rating as high as 140.
All of these Buick GN's and other cars commonly sitting in the 10sec 1/4 mi range (3500lb car), and even one just now hitting 9.90's, all running 93 octane pump gas and methanol near the same ratios we are just now beginning to experiment with. 93 octane can be used when in conjuinction with methanol as the overall octane (knock-resistance) of the mixed fuel, depending on this ratio, is raised substantially; same with the auto-ignition temperature. If the auto-ignition temperature of this "soup" is that of race fuel, not to mention the other temperature-reducing benefits, the engine can be tuned with "race-gas-like" spark advance. Voila -- volatile fuel for low loads such as tip-in, start/stopping, warm-up, idle, and cruising to the parts store... and then a mega-reliable, mega powerful engine in boost. Shazam!
Julio Don is correct. EGT's are the key. Air/Fuel ratios are temporary; EGT's are what need to be looked at like a hawk when tuning methanol and pump gas under load.
Gasoline -- Auto-ignition temperature of sub 500*F.
Various race gasolines -- auto-ignition temperature ~660*F.
Methanol -- Auto-ignition temperature 878*F!!!!! The motherload of all internal combustion fuels!
B
__________________
Brian D. Cain -/- bdc@bdcmotorsports.com
Performance Rotary Engines, Specialized Porting, EFI System Installation & Tuning
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 09-12-06 at 09:37 AM.
09-12-06, 12:18 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by iceman4357
Although you loose 33hp you are able to raise your boost higher than you would be able to on regular pump gas and run safely, therefore yielding more hp overall??
I lose 33HP compared to a stoich mixture. If i were to use methanol I would lose 15.91 HP. Compared to a stoich mixture. At lest that what the math says, I am sure there are some out side influences that effect the possess. So it may be a bit higher or lower. But there is no way to find out for sure because you cant push pump gas to 23-27 psi (DO NOT TRY THESE PSI WITH OUT TUNING FOR IT!!!) with out it going boom. Remember folk’s stoich is 14.7:1 for gasoline
09-12-06, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by howard coleman
written by brian cain and originally posted on the teamFC3s site... i thought all would appreciate the following:
Water injection, for the purpose of raising the anti-knock index of a fuel, is worthless. It also must be atomized to a very high pressure (in an already pressurized system) to even have its specific heat and latent heat of evaporation properties be of any use at all. It is inert in the combustion chamber, providing 0 BTU's as it does not combust. It can also hydro-lock a motor if the solenoid that's keeping the high-pressurized system from hitting the nozzle fails. The only benefit of water in all practical application is its ability to pull some heat out of the intake charge, and even then its arguable how much it can based upon the amount of water entering the chamber thereafter.
Water injection, for the purpose of raising the anti-knock index of a fuel, is worthless. It also must be atomized to a very high pressure (in an already pressurized system) to even have its specific heat and latent heat of evaporation properties be of any use at all. It is inert in the combustion chamber, providing 0 BTU's as it does not combust. It can also hydro-lock a motor if the solenoid that's keeping the high-pressurized system from hitting the nozzle fails. The only benefit of water in all practical application is its ability to pull some heat out of the intake charge, and even then its arguable how much it can based upon the amount of water entering the chamber thereafter.
Actually I just read the whole thing and not just the part on water injection. And its full of errors and misinformation. Including basic gas law, basic physics errors. (shaking head) --- No wonder people are all confused about rotaries
Last edited by Pimp Hand; 09-12-06 at 12:48 PM.
09-12-06, 12:52 PM
#65
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by Pimp Hand
This should be changed. Not only is full of misinformation. Some of the conclusions are flat out wrong! Its crap like this that really bugs me. I wish people would do their homework before making public statements on a subject they are clearly misinformed/ill qualified to speak on.
Also, do you have any practical results power-wise or anything else regarding your WI setup? Do you have any practical data on the output of your car pre and post water? I happen to know that it won't yield results anywhere near like alcohol. There's a reason why, when you look at the 5-6 year evolution of this very subject on Turbobuick.com's Aux Injection subforum, that they've gone from water to primarily alcohol.
Perhaps we're on two different sides of the same team here: Guys like Howard and I and others that are pursuing high power on pump fuel w/ the primary focus being engine reliability are convinced that alcohol only is the way to go based on a gross panaply of evidence given by another automotive community. Other guys that use water I feel will benefit in helping keep engine durability at their existing power levels. I have a customer who's got a Coolingmist WI setup that I tuned him to 15psi to use on pump gas. I feel it's perfectly safe given its ability to pull heat out, but I also feel that it's got many drawbacks to it that, in as much as what goals we're pursuing, make it the undesirable choice.
B
09-12-06, 01:10 PM
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1# "Water injection, for the purpose of raising the anti-knock index of a fuel, is worthless."---- Correct because WI doesn’t work this way. So this statement is misleading.
2# "It also must be atomized to a very high pressure (in an already pressurized system) to even have its specific heat and latent heat of evaporation properties be of any use at all"---- False, water is sprayed in the exact same way ALK is.
3# "It is inert in the combustion chamber, providing 0 BTU's as it does not combust."---- Correct right on the money.
4# "It can also hydro-lock a motor if the solenoid that's keeping the high-pressurized system from hitting the nozzle fails"----Kind of false. Yes a solenoid can fail. (same for alk) But as soon as the solenoid fails the pressure drops to 0 and the pump kicks on. But this is no different than a ALK system. But the amount required to hydro - lock a motor is laughable. But this statment works off the premis that the system is always presurised. In the end its no difrent than ALK.
5# "The only benefit of water in all practical application is its ability to pull some heat out of the intake charge"----- HUGELY WRONG!!
6# "and even then its arguable how much it can based upon the amount of water entering the chamber thereafter." Some what correct. If the water is used to cool the intake charge. then that leaves a smaller amount to turn in to vapor in the chamber.
2# "It also must be atomized to a very high pressure (in an already pressurized system) to even have its specific heat and latent heat of evaporation properties be of any use at all"---- False, water is sprayed in the exact same way ALK is.
3# "It is inert in the combustion chamber, providing 0 BTU's as it does not combust."---- Correct right on the money.
4# "It can also hydro-lock a motor if the solenoid that's keeping the high-pressurized system from hitting the nozzle fails"----Kind of false. Yes a solenoid can fail. (same for alk) But as soon as the solenoid fails the pressure drops to 0 and the pump kicks on. But this is no different than a ALK system. But the amount required to hydro - lock a motor is laughable. But this statment works off the premis that the system is always presurised. In the end its no difrent than ALK.
5# "The only benefit of water in all practical application is its ability to pull some heat out of the intake charge"----- HUGELY WRONG!!
6# "and even then its arguable how much it can based upon the amount of water entering the chamber thereafter." Some what correct. If the water is used to cool the intake charge. then that leaves a smaller amount to turn in to vapor in the chamber.
Last edited by Pimp Hand; 09-12-06 at 01:23 PM.
09-12-06, 01:56 PM
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I'm not in any way trying to speak for BDC here, but I believe what you are overlooking in so far as your #2 point goes, is the fact that alcohol evaporates (can be thought of as self-atomizing) MUCH MUCH better than water does. I don't think that anyone will disagree with that. It is for this reason that water must be atomized via a higher pressure to utilize it as effectively as alcohol.
In response to #4, I'm inclined to agree with the feeling that worrying about hydrolocking a motor is a bit superfluous. I can't foresee a flow rate being able to be sustained that would make this a real concern.
#5 - How is it HUGELY WRONG? I agree that it does more than just cool the intake in that it also absorbs some of the heat in the combustion chamber, further reducing EGTs than the difference realized by the drop in intake charge temperature, but I don't think it warrants an all caps HUGELY WRONG response. A significant oversight at best.
I am quite new in all this, possibly the least experienced as far as real world applications goes in this thread, so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I couldn't agree more with Howard in all this in that it is important that nobody tries to get into a personal argument on this because right now this is the strongest thread on AI in the forum, let's keep it informed and rational and see if we can't get it stickied or even better get our own section out of it.
In response to #4, I'm inclined to agree with the feeling that worrying about hydrolocking a motor is a bit superfluous. I can't foresee a flow rate being able to be sustained that would make this a real concern.
#5 - How is it HUGELY WRONG? I agree that it does more than just cool the intake in that it also absorbs some of the heat in the combustion chamber, further reducing EGTs than the difference realized by the drop in intake charge temperature, but I don't think it warrants an all caps HUGELY WRONG response. A significant oversight at best.
I am quite new in all this, possibly the least experienced as far as real world applications goes in this thread, so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I couldn't agree more with Howard in all this in that it is important that nobody tries to get into a personal argument on this because right now this is the strongest thread on AI in the forum, let's keep it informed and rational and see if we can't get it stickied or even better get our own section out of it.
09-12-06, 02:28 PM
#68
fart on a friends head!!!
Originally Posted by big_rizzlah
I am quite new in all this, possibly the least experienced as far as real world applications goes in this thread, so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I couldn't agree more with Howard in all this in that it is important that nobody tries to get into a personal argument on this because right now this is the strongest thread on AI in the forum, let's keep it informed and rational and see if we can't get it stickied or even better get our own section out of it.
i dont think anybody is purely bashing either form of AI. . . rather, they are stating that if you want "x", use this. . . and if you want "x + y", use this.
this thread needs to stay on that level, and does not need to turn into a male locker room measurement contest.
i currently have a water injection setup. im happy with the kit as it has done what it was intended to do. i DO want to take a step higher and make more power. i DO think methanol as an AI can do that. it has beeeeeeeeeeeen proven to do so. lets not take that away.
i really dont see the argument here. . . if it works, GREAT!!! if it starts to tear up motors. . . well, good try. thats when you say, "drawing board, please???"
09-12-06, 02:41 PM
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#2 Yes Alk is much better at charge cooling. ( as i said in my first post 
)There is no way of getting around the physics of it. Water has a much higher boiling temp then ALK. As a result it takes more energy (latent heat) to make it evaporate. And in the temp range that out IAT operates at, ALK provides more evaporation. More evap= more cooling.
Water has a latent heat of 2250 (kj/kg)
Methanol has a latent heat of 1109 (kj/kg)
Ethanol has a latent heat of 904 (kj/kg)
Gasoline has a latent heat of 350 (kj/kg)
But to answer you, no water injection systems operate at the same head pressures at ALK injection systems do. And as a result both are atomized at the same droplet size (setting aside nosel design) IE we all have some where near 100psi head pressures.(remember to compensate for boost presure) 99.99 of systems are interchangable in regards to injectant. (assuming the pump seals will deal with ALK) IE i could go put ALK in mine with no changes at all to the system. (tune will change)
#5 I chose "hugely wrong" because this statement Not only completely ignores the Primary function of WI (evaporating in the combustion chamber and as a result it pulls a LARGE amount of heat out of the compression/power strokes). IE it takes allot of heat to turn a significant amount of water into vapor. (latent heat)
It also ignores that water slows down the flame front (IE it slows down the combustion process) in the combustion chamber. These 2 functions are the entire basis why WI works in the first place. To make a statement that belittles its charge cooling affects and denies its primary functions is huge. At very lest a gross over sight.
I understand it was strong language to say "hugely wrong". And it was not my intent to offend. My intent was to empress the gravity of that statement.
If I offended then I apologies, that was not my intent
)There is no way of getting around the physics of it. Water has a much higher boiling temp then ALK. As a result it takes more energy (latent heat) to make it evaporate. And in the temp range that out IAT operates at, ALK provides more evaporation. More evap= more cooling. Water has a latent heat of 2250 (kj/kg)
Methanol has a latent heat of 1109 (kj/kg)
Ethanol has a latent heat of 904 (kj/kg)
Gasoline has a latent heat of 350 (kj/kg)
But to answer you, no water injection systems operate at the same head pressures at ALK injection systems do. And as a result both are atomized at the same droplet size (setting aside nosel design) IE we all have some where near 100psi head pressures.(remember to compensate for boost presure) 99.99 of systems are interchangable in regards to injectant. (assuming the pump seals will deal with ALK) IE i could go put ALK in mine with no changes at all to the system. (tune will change)
#5 I chose "hugely wrong" because this statement Not only completely ignores the Primary function of WI (evaporating in the combustion chamber and as a result it pulls a LARGE amount of heat out of the compression/power strokes). IE it takes allot of heat to turn a significant amount of water into vapor. (latent heat)
It also ignores that water slows down the flame front (IE it slows down the combustion process) in the combustion chamber. These 2 functions are the entire basis why WI works in the first place. To make a statement that belittles its charge cooling affects and denies its primary functions is huge. At very lest a gross over sight.
I understand it was strong language to say "hugely wrong". And it was not my intent to offend. My intent was to empress the gravity of that statement.
If I offended then I apologies, that was not my intent
Last edited by Pimp Hand; 09-12-06 at 02:58 PM.
09-12-06, 02:53 PM
#71
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by Pimp Hand
#2 Yes Alk is much better at charge cooling. ( as i said in my first post )There is no way of getting around the physics of it. Water has a much higher boiling temp then ALK. As a result it takes more energy (latent heat) to make it evaporate. And in the temp range that out IAT operates at, ALK provides more evaporation. More evap= more cooling.
Water has a latent heat of 2250 (kj/kg)
Methanol has a latent heat of 1109 (kj/kg)
Ethanol has a latent heat of 904 (kj/kg)
Gasoline has a latent heat of 350 (kj/kg)
But to answer you, no water injection systems operate at the same head pressures at ALK injection systems do. And as a result both are atomized at the same droplet size (setting aside nosel design) IE we all have some where near 100psi head pressures.
#5 I chose "hugely wrong" because this statement Not only completely ignores the Primary function of WI (evaporating in the combustion chamber and as a result it pulls a LARGE amount of heat out of the compression/power strokes). IE it takes allot of heat to turn a significant amount of water into vapor. (latent heat)
It also ignores that water slows down the flame front (IE it slows down the combustion process) in the combustion chamber. These 2 functions are the entire basis why WI works in the first place. To make a statement that belittles its charge cooling affects and denies its primary functions is huge. At very lest a gross over sight.
I understand it was strong language to say "hugely wrong". And it was not my intent to offend. My intent was to empress the gravity of that statement.
If I offended then I apologies, that was not my intent
)There is no way of getting around the physics of it. Water has a much higher boiling temp then ALK. As a result it takes more energy (latent heat) to make it evaporate. And in the temp range that out IAT operates at, ALK provides more evaporation. More evap= more cooling. Water has a latent heat of 2250 (kj/kg)
Methanol has a latent heat of 1109 (kj/kg)
Ethanol has a latent heat of 904 (kj/kg)
Gasoline has a latent heat of 350 (kj/kg)
But to answer you, no water injection systems operate at the same head pressures at ALK injection systems do. And as a result both are atomized at the same droplet size (setting aside nosel design) IE we all have some where near 100psi head pressures.
#5 I chose "hugely wrong" because this statement Not only completely ignores the Primary function of WI (evaporating in the combustion chamber and as a result it pulls a LARGE amount of heat out of the compression/power strokes). IE it takes allot of heat to turn a significant amount of water into vapor. (latent heat)
It also ignores that water slows down the flame front (IE it slows down the combustion process) in the combustion chamber. These 2 functions are the entire basis why WI works in the first place. To make a statement that belittles its charge cooling affects and denies its primary functions is huge. At very lest a gross over sight.
I understand it was strong language to say "hugely wrong". And it was not my intent to offend. My intent was to empress the gravity of that statement.
If I offended then I apologies, that was not my intent
B
09-12-06, 02:57 PM
#72
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by Pimp Hand
No argument, none at all.
He asked me what the miss info was so I just explained why it was, And gave him credit for the things that are right.
He asked me what the miss info was so I just explained why it was, And gave him credit for the things that are right.
Speaking of which, I just ran some more tests today on the way back from dropping some stuff off to get cleaned. I'll post up on my blog on TeamFC3S w/ a few datalog pictures. Needless to say, it's very encouraging at the least.
B
09-12-06, 03:01 PM
#73
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Please post a link to the blog or copy and paste the contents here BDC. Thanks
Also, Howard, if you don't mind my asking, what'd you end up paying for your alky setup. Did you source it all from alkycontrol or did you get this and that from here and there?
Thanks.
ryan
Also, Howard, if you don't mind my asking, what'd you end up paying for your alky setup. Did you source it all from alkycontrol or did you get this and that from here and there?
Thanks.
ryan
09-12-06, 03:02 PM
#74
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Originally Posted by BDC
Pimp hand, do you have any literature or other reference on your claims about the decelleration of flame front speed as well as its alleged ability to pull a "large" amount of heat out of the compression stroke? I'd like to read up more on this.
B
B
Sure no problem this subject has been reasearched out the yin yang.
This should get ya started. I'll post more links later (got to dig them up) At the end of each study ther are refrance material credits as well. And most of them are on this subject as well. Good stuff to read too.
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/downloads/naca_H2O.pdf
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/downloads/NACA_H2O_2.pdf
Last edited by Pimp Hand; 09-12-06 at 03:09 PM.
09-12-06, 03:47 PM
#75
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by big_rizzlah
Please post a link to the blog or copy and paste the contents here BDC. Thanks
Also, Howard, if you don't mind my asking, what'd you end up paying for your alky setup. Did you source it all from alkycontrol or did you get this and that from here and there?
Thanks.
ryan
Also, Howard, if you don't mind my asking, what'd you end up paying for your alky setup. Did you source it all from alkycontrol or did you get this and that from here and there?
Thanks.
ryan
http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=50682
I just posted some stuff from today.
B