400RWHP on the m2 twins...the saga continues! but not the way i expected (thanks xs)
#1
WTB** Very Low Miles 94-95
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tejas
Posts: 3,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
400RWHP on the m2 twins...the saga continues! but not the way i expected (thanks xs)
hey all,
after a year and a half of hard research, parts buying and constant wrestling to get it right, my quest for reaching 400 rwhp is over.
The verdict on my car is in. I have my fd down at gotham getting some expert help from steve and ihor and rich. we did water injection and the bushings and a whole bunch of other little stuff. we then took it for tuning on the dyno and did a pull a couple weeks ago. the afr's showed that i was running slightly lean. however, the car only put down 305 at 1 bar. my xs dyno sheets show that they put down around 350 at that same boost when they tuned it a year ago. my butt dyno was aware of the loss of power since then.
my afr's were in the range of 11.5 in a places which is not acceptable considering i specifically asked xs and RRR for 11.2:1 all the way across. after discovering the problem, we took the car back to gotham to have compression checked. we made no adjustments to the maps and left head down. a few days later I got the results. My compression is bad with 4's on both rotors. Thus the loss of horsepower compared to a year ago.
I asked Steve to pull them motor and get me pictures.
All work had been done by rotary reliablity and racing as well as xs engineering on the tuning side up until now. I spoke with Rotary Reliability and racing who took the car to xs themselves to handle it all while i was in massachussettes (tuning and repairs to the wiring harness). They admitted to me that the car left their shop after break in with only 6's for compression (wtf).
The motor is now out and pictures are on their way. They will show up in a complaint thread in the vendors section as well as be accompanied by screenshots of the shoddy afr's which xs had tuned. (negative split in vacuum didnt make me any happier...even if it was in vacuum). Rotary Reliability refused to warrantee the work though they did agree to rebuild at parts cost. considering i'd have to ship...no way no how. the only thing im sending them is pictures of what xs lean fuel tuning did to my now flattened 1300 dollar ceramic ianetti apex seals. steve surmised that they actually tuned the car to about 11.7-12.0 afr's for me to put down 381 with those maps. ARGH.
timing was a mess. (though that is a topic for the vendors section now)
so after three weeks of me figuring out what to do i have decided now that the motor is out, to go single. I am going with the below custom setup being built by steven kan at Gotham.
larger streetport
t62-1 dual ball bearing (should put down 400rwhp at 14psi and full boost by 3000-3300rpm)
1.0 exhaust AR
3.5 inch vband
3.5 inch downpipe
hks manifold
hks wastegate
I am sending my m2 twins with only 4-5k miles on them to BNR for a full inspection and will be selling them for a fair price. Now that I am not living in cali there is no reason for me to stay with the twins when I can go with a nice single setup (steve is building me a quick spooling small single as i said). I will also be selling my hks downpipe and the new solonoids currently in the car. The m2 twins come with a custom y pipe as well.
At first I was very upset. I had worked so hard and so long just to have my car last a short time because of poor tuning. The car felt like it ran better than it ever had when I got it back from xs last year. I was so happy. I even drove it from mass to minnesota without problem which is a miracle on a near 400hp car. kudos to the work from rrr that got me that far. it is too bad that the dream was short lived.
now that i have made the decision to go single I am very happy with it. the car should be done within the month here and I will be posting the dyno sheets for the quick spooling turbo setup Im going to be running.
Thanks to everyone who helped me along the way. To those who assisted me to get this far I can only say that I appreciate it. To those who I trusted and paid thousands of dollars who are the reason my car is now in pieces...I dont even want to say what I think about you.
I will keep yall informed
Jason
after a year and a half of hard research, parts buying and constant wrestling to get it right, my quest for reaching 400 rwhp is over.
The verdict on my car is in. I have my fd down at gotham getting some expert help from steve and ihor and rich. we did water injection and the bushings and a whole bunch of other little stuff. we then took it for tuning on the dyno and did a pull a couple weeks ago. the afr's showed that i was running slightly lean. however, the car only put down 305 at 1 bar. my xs dyno sheets show that they put down around 350 at that same boost when they tuned it a year ago. my butt dyno was aware of the loss of power since then.
my afr's were in the range of 11.5 in a places which is not acceptable considering i specifically asked xs and RRR for 11.2:1 all the way across. after discovering the problem, we took the car back to gotham to have compression checked. we made no adjustments to the maps and left head down. a few days later I got the results. My compression is bad with 4's on both rotors. Thus the loss of horsepower compared to a year ago.
I asked Steve to pull them motor and get me pictures.
All work had been done by rotary reliablity and racing as well as xs engineering on the tuning side up until now. I spoke with Rotary Reliability and racing who took the car to xs themselves to handle it all while i was in massachussettes (tuning and repairs to the wiring harness). They admitted to me that the car left their shop after break in with only 6's for compression (wtf).
The motor is now out and pictures are on their way. They will show up in a complaint thread in the vendors section as well as be accompanied by screenshots of the shoddy afr's which xs had tuned. (negative split in vacuum didnt make me any happier...even if it was in vacuum). Rotary Reliability refused to warrantee the work though they did agree to rebuild at parts cost. considering i'd have to ship...no way no how. the only thing im sending them is pictures of what xs lean fuel tuning did to my now flattened 1300 dollar ceramic ianetti apex seals. steve surmised that they actually tuned the car to about 11.7-12.0 afr's for me to put down 381 with those maps. ARGH.
timing was a mess. (though that is a topic for the vendors section now)
so after three weeks of me figuring out what to do i have decided now that the motor is out, to go single. I am going with the below custom setup being built by steven kan at Gotham.
larger streetport
t62-1 dual ball bearing (should put down 400rwhp at 14psi and full boost by 3000-3300rpm)
1.0 exhaust AR
3.5 inch vband
3.5 inch downpipe
hks manifold
hks wastegate
I am sending my m2 twins with only 4-5k miles on them to BNR for a full inspection and will be selling them for a fair price. Now that I am not living in cali there is no reason for me to stay with the twins when I can go with a nice single setup (steve is building me a quick spooling small single as i said). I will also be selling my hks downpipe and the new solonoids currently in the car. The m2 twins come with a custom y pipe as well.
At first I was very upset. I had worked so hard and so long just to have my car last a short time because of poor tuning. The car felt like it ran better than it ever had when I got it back from xs last year. I was so happy. I even drove it from mass to minnesota without problem which is a miracle on a near 400hp car. kudos to the work from rrr that got me that far. it is too bad that the dream was short lived.
now that i have made the decision to go single I am very happy with it. the car should be done within the month here and I will be posting the dyno sheets for the quick spooling turbo setup Im going to be running.
Thanks to everyone who helped me along the way. To those who assisted me to get this far I can only say that I appreciate it. To those who I trusted and paid thousands of dollars who are the reason my car is now in pieces...I dont even want to say what I think about you.
I will keep yall informed
Jason
#2
omgwtfposlol
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Orange City, FL
Posts: 862
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
damn thats a bad story for those (not because of, just involving) expensive twins, but no doubt your new setup will be great.
1 stupid question. what's a "V band"?
1 stupid question. what's a "V band"?
#3
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
WOW!!!
so many stories about bad tuning and shops!!!
Artguy, when you say the ceramic seals are flattened do you mean the springs? Or are the seals FUBAR????
so many stories about bad tuning and shops!!!
Artguy, when you say the ceramic seals are flattened do you mean the springs? Or are the seals FUBAR????
#4
WTB** Very Low Miles 94-95
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tejas
Posts: 3,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by 7racer
WOW!!!
so many stories about bad tuning and shops!!!
Artguy, when you say the ceramic seals are flattened do you mean the springs? Or are the seals FUBAR????
WOW!!!
so many stories about bad tuning and shops!!!
Artguy, when you say the ceramic seals are flattened do you mean the springs? Or are the seals FUBAR????
my barely driven on 1300 dollar ianettis are now damaged. thankfully they are not broken at all. if they were, my turbos would be shot. I got lucky there....if you can call that lucky.
j
#6
WTB** Very Low Miles 94-95
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tejas
Posts: 3,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by particleeffect
damn thats a bad story for those (not because of, just involving) expensive twins, but no doubt your new setup will be great.
1 stupid question. what's a "V band"?
damn thats a bad story for those (not because of, just involving) expensive twins, but no doubt your new setup will be great.
1 stupid question. what's a "V band"?
the vband is like a type of clamp assembly I believe. that isnt a dumb question unless you are a turbo builder.
Last edited by artguy; 03-13-04 at 06:58 PM.
#7
WTB** Very Low Miles 94-95
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tejas
Posts: 3,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by RX7Wishing
so you were still getting 305 rwhp with 4's all across for compression?!?
so you were still getting 305 rwhp with 4's all across for compression?!?
the car ran fine...it was just a bit hard to start. that is all. i attributed that to the ceramics and not to low compression caused by slightly damaged ceramics. the car idled fine as well. it sounded good. it just fell on its face past five k rpms. overall it was down by about fifteen perfent hp over the original dyno pulls xs did last year.
First inclination was that it wasnt a motor prob but a flow prob. the turbos were boosting fine and just as quick as ever. Im going to miss that quick response of seq..but a simple system without all the hassle will make me happier in the long run.
the guys at gotham know exactly how i drive my car and how i want it to perform and are building a setup accordingly.
jason
Last edited by artguy; 03-13-04 at 07:04 PM.
Trending Topics
#8
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Jason,
I'm sorry for what you are going through...your in good hands now.
I also am getting a rebuild with ceramics and just have a question...when you say flattened, do you mean the lean conditions caused detontation to flatten the seals, or do you think that the clearancing was off causing abnormal wear on the seals?
This REALLY scares me as I was rebuilding on a similar route and idea.
I'm sorry for what you are going through...your in good hands now.
I also am getting a rebuild with ceramics and just have a question...when you say flattened, do you mean the lean conditions caused detontation to flatten the seals, or do you think that the clearancing was off causing abnormal wear on the seals?
This REALLY scares me as I was rebuilding on a similar route and idea.
#9
WTB** Very Low Miles 94-95
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tejas
Posts: 3,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well, my ceramics are one piece...and the slilght flattening was determined to be caused by too lean fuel maps i was running which xs installed. at 305 i was running lean thru the middle....at 380 id have been very lean.
funny thing is that xs told me thru RRR that i was getting high exhaust gas temps but supposedly they couldnt figure out why. well, ill tell them why. THE THING WAS RUNNING LEAN.
fun stuff
j
funny thing is that xs told me thru RRR that i was getting high exhaust gas temps but supposedly they couldnt figure out why. well, ill tell them why. THE THING WAS RUNNING LEAN.
fun stuff
j
#11
Administrative Me
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by RX7Wishing
so you were still getting 305 rwhp with 4's all across for compression?!?
so you were still getting 305 rwhp with 4's all across for compression?!?
Here was my compression tests:
Front rotor: 5.4 - 5.6 - 5.6
Rear rotor: 4.0 - 3.8 - 3.6
I was making 318 rwhp @ 12 psi on a 60-1 (1.15 AR, "Q" trim). I had many problems up until that point, including a video from ST Louis on the Dyno pinging 3 times.
I was running a Haltech E6k at the time too. Steve, Cam Worth, Ari, BDC, HWO (what happened to him?)and good ole thong boy , and I went through all of the maps. We thought everything was great. Nice and conservative, etc. Well, I believe it was Chris (Mr rx-7 tt) recomended I get a compression check. Sure enough, those were the results.
It made decent power for the horrid compression.
#12
Administrative Me
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is a picture of what mine looked like the following weekend when I said **** it! Lets have some fun at HP Topeka!
Odd enough, I was able to road race the car all day long. It was the last segment of the day, passing this 1997 Twin Turbo Porsche "S", with 1 or 2 laps left in the time segment, the engine blew.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ghlight=damage
Odd enough, I was able to road race the car all day long. It was the last segment of the day, passing this 1997 Twin Turbo Porsche "S", with 1 or 2 laps left in the time segment, the engine blew.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ghlight=damage
#13
Shiftin' and Smokin'
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 544
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I just need to ask you why a peak rwhp # of 400 is so important to you. Is it just to say that your car makes the 400 #? Why break your *****, and spend way more money just to hit that. If you're gonna go single, go big and make some big #'s to brag about. Especially for the money it's gonna cost you to change turbos anyway.
#14
Reverse Engineer
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Center of Everywhere
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Damn...
That's painful. As bad as my 2 Gen megabuck debacle with Tripoint.
I still can't get over how the supposed "top" shops end up doing such sloppy work. There seems to be no conscience or concern for doing a good job. And they don't seem to give a rat's *** about word of mouth. You would think XS and RRR would be smart enough to figure out that if they jacked your car up, there would be a price to pay. But they could care less! It boggles the mind.
I'll be looking for your thread updates.
What was the final court decision between Monsen and Farrell from a while back? Anyone know? Is there justice?
I still can't get over how the supposed "top" shops end up doing such sloppy work. There seems to be no conscience or concern for doing a good job. And they don't seem to give a rat's *** about word of mouth. You would think XS and RRR would be smart enough to figure out that if they jacked your car up, there would be a price to pay. But they could care less! It boggles the mind.
I'll be looking for your thread updates.
What was the final court decision between Monsen and Farrell from a while back? Anyone know? Is there justice?
#15
WTB** Very Low Miles 94-95
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tejas
Posts: 3,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by hardbodeez
I just need to ask you why a peak rwhp # of 400 is so important to you. Is it just to say that your car makes the 400 #? Why break your *****, and spend way more money just to hit that. If you're gonna go single, go big and make some big #'s to brag about. Especially for the money it's gonna cost you to change turbos anyway.
I just need to ask you why a peak rwhp # of 400 is so important to you. Is it just to say that your car makes the 400 #? Why break your *****, and spend way more money just to hit that. If you're gonna go single, go big and make some big #'s to brag about. Especially for the money it's gonna cost you to change turbos anyway.
j
Last edited by artguy; 03-13-04 at 07:43 PM.
#16
1JZ powered
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Where there's only two seasons, hot and wet! I love Okinawa
Posts: 4,423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yummy...62-1 was my previous turbo....made great power at 3500 rpms+(non-BB unit)....You'll be happy with the big single. It's definitely more fun
#18
WTB** Very Low Miles 94-95
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tejas
Posts: 3,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by jspecracer7
Yummy...62-1 was my previous turbo....made great power at 3500 rpms+(non-BB unit)....You'll be happy with the big single. It's definitely more fun
Yummy...62-1 was my previous turbo....made great power at 3500 rpms+(non-BB unit)....You'll be happy with the big single. It's definitely more fun
i should gain about 400-500 rpms on the dual bb setup as far as response goes....it may end up being very close to the feel of the stockers but with ballz up top.
i saw this today..courtesy of max cooper...this turbo has a nice torque curve...flat as a **** http://www.kgparts.com/R85.htm
j
#19
fart on a friends head!!!
ouch. . . what a hard saga ending. . . i was soo looking forward to seeing what those things made. . . as far as the twins go. . . i might have a buddy that will buy them. . . given theyre in good shape.
paul
paul
#20
WTB** Very Low Miles 94-95
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tejas
Posts: 3,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by rotorbrain
ouch. . . what a hard saga ending. . . i was soo looking forward to seeing what those things made. . . as far as the twins go. . . i might have a buddy that will buy them. . . given theyre in good shape.
paul
ouch. . . what a hard saga ending. . . i was soo looking forward to seeing what those things made. . . as far as the twins go. . . i might have a buddy that will buy them. . . given theyre in good shape.
paul
I am going to have them inspected and price them accordingly. I put about 4-5k on them (1200 break in and about 2k highway miles) so there is really only about 1500 miles on them zipping around town. i do know they did not leak one bit and that they spool faster than any others. they still spin with a light breath blowing on them. we shall see. I will put em up for sale after i get bnr to inspect and give me an estimate on what they should be worth.
#21
Full Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello Jason,
I know it has been a while since we last spoke but I have dropped in from time to time on this board to see how you were doing with the M2/GCG twin set up. Sorry to hear that once again someone was not treated correctly with regards to their car and engine work. I know you worked hard at making the power on those twins with the fantastic boost response down low.
I wish you well with your single set up( I am partial to the GT35/40 .82 A/R with your HP goals). I am looking at getting back into the 3rd gen RX-7 madness myself, but with the LS1 for my 450WHP motivation. Sacreligeous I know. But reliable. Good luck Jason and keep us informed of your single turbo beast once you have completed it.
Brett.
I know it has been a while since we last spoke but I have dropped in from time to time on this board to see how you were doing with the M2/GCG twin set up. Sorry to hear that once again someone was not treated correctly with regards to their car and engine work. I know you worked hard at making the power on those twins with the fantastic boost response down low.
I wish you well with your single set up( I am partial to the GT35/40 .82 A/R with your HP goals). I am looking at getting back into the 3rd gen RX-7 madness myself, but with the LS1 for my 450WHP motivation. Sacreligeous I know. But reliable. Good luck Jason and keep us informed of your single turbo beast once you have completed it.
Brett.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Sarasota FL/Ft Lauderdale
Posts: 483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"t62-1 dual ball bearing (should put down 400rwhp at 14psi and full boost by 3000-3300rpm)
1.0 exhaust AR
3.5 inch vband
3.5 inch downpipe
hks manifold
hks wastegate"
How much?
1.0 exhaust AR
3.5 inch vband
3.5 inch downpipe
hks manifold
hks wastegate"
How much?
#23
Speed Mach Go Go Go
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: My 350Z Roadster kicks my RX7's butt
Posts: 4,772
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Glad to hear Gotham is takin care of ya. I think it may be a jump to go to the 62-1 from the M2's. You should look at their GT40R instead (full ball bearing). I have been trying to figure out ways to keep the twins but if it's gunna cost me another set of o-rings, i'll go single.
#24
WTB** Very Low Miles 94-95
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tejas
Posts: 3,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Thxbrett
Hello Jason,
I know it has been a while since we last spoke but I have dropped in from time to time on this board to see how you were doing with the M2/GCG twin set up. Sorry to hear that once again someone was not treated correctly with regards to their car and engine work. I know you worked hard at making the power on those twins with the fantastic boost response down low.
I wish you well with your single set up( I am partial to the GT35/40 .82 A/R with your HP goals). I am looking at getting back into the 3rd gen RX-7 madness myself, but with the LS1 for my 450WHP motivation. Sacreligeous I know. But reliable. Good luck Jason and keep us informed of your single turbo beast once you have completed it.
Brett.
Hello Jason,
I know it has been a while since we last spoke but I have dropped in from time to time on this board to see how you were doing with the M2/GCG twin set up. Sorry to hear that once again someone was not treated correctly with regards to their car and engine work. I know you worked hard at making the power on those twins with the fantastic boost response down low.
I wish you well with your single set up( I am partial to the GT35/40 .82 A/R with your HP goals). I am looking at getting back into the 3rd gen RX-7 madness myself, but with the LS1 for my 450WHP motivation. Sacreligeous I know. But reliable. Good luck Jason and keep us informed of your single turbo beast once you have completed it.
Brett.
good to see you here brett. the car was a blast while she ran great. it has been a learning experience...and a costly one at that.
are you still at vishnu?
naah..its not sacreligious...i wish someone i knew and trusted would run it so i could hear how the v8 setup actually performs...instead of just hearing hate and hype.
you were a big help in me learning all this stuff. thanks.
#25
WTB** Very Low Miles 94-95
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tejas
Posts: 3,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by capt. bill1
"t62-1 dual ball bearing (should put down 400rwhp at 14psi and full boost by 3000-3300rpm)
1.0 exhaust AR
3.5 inch vband
3.5 inch downpipe
hks manifold
hks wastegate"
How much?
"t62-1 dual ball bearing (should put down 400rwhp at 14psi and full boost by 3000-3300rpm)
1.0 exhaust AR
3.5 inch vband
3.5 inch downpipe
hks manifold
hks wastegate"
How much?
j
Last edited by artguy; 03-13-04 at 09:24 PM.