A/C Charging with Easy Cheap Safe Alternative Refrigerant
08-04-11, 10:09 PM
#1
A/C Charging with Easy Cheap Safe Alternative Refrigerant
I am knowledgeable about Auto A/C (as well as Home and Refrigeration etc). I am licensed, I have a 608 and a 609 certificate. I have EPA certified recovery equipment and am capable of doing everything 'by the book'. I keep R12 and have for years. I have helped lots of people with auto a/c for many years. BMW's, Porsches, Honda's, Toyotas, Mazdas yada yada yada. It is easy stuff for me. It ain't braggin' if you can do it. This is my reference for those of you on the forum who don't know me.
The FC was designed for use with R12. It works great with R12...but R12 is expensive and restricted. You must have a pass a test, pay a fee to get license. Leaving the politics out, most of the guys on this forum are just not interested in R12 for these reasons.
Why not convert to R134a? The serpentine condenser is just barely adequate for R12 use. The condenser capacity is woefully inadequate for use in an R134a conversion. With inadequate heat rejection capacity, a converted system will produce head pressures that run dangerously high. The hot high-pressure gas cannot reject enough heat and so does not completely condense in cases of high load. Thus the system will not cool well when you need it most, when it is HOT! Additionally, the excessive pressure can damage the compressor, make the engine more likely to stall at lights, burst the rubber lines, blow the fusible plug out of the dryer and just generally cause havoc.
If you install a parallel flow condenser, (not an easy task) this trouble is avoided. This option is expensive, tricky and not easily accomplished. I haven't done this on any of my FC's even though I am qualified and capable. Pain in the butt.
The FC was designed for use with R12. It works great with R12...but R12 is expensive and restricted. You must have a pass a test, pay a fee to get license. Leaving the politics out, most of the guys on this forum are just not interested in R12 for these reasons.
Why not convert to R134a? The serpentine condenser is just barely adequate for R12 use. The condenser capacity is woefully inadequate for use in an R134a conversion. With inadequate heat rejection capacity, a converted system will produce head pressures that run dangerously high. The hot high-pressure gas cannot reject enough heat and so does not completely condense in cases of high load. Thus the system will not cool well when you need it most, when it is HOT! Additionally, the excessive pressure can damage the compressor, make the engine more likely to stall at lights, burst the rubber lines, blow the fusible plug out of the dryer and just generally cause havoc.
If you install a parallel flow condenser, (not an easy task) this trouble is avoided. This option is expensive, tricky and not easily accomplished. I haven't done this on any of my FC's even though I am qualified and capable. Pain in the butt.
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rx7racerca (06-16-18)
08-04-11, 10:31 PM
#2
So, what are the Options Available???
Freeze12 works. Period. Con is that Freeze12 is not locally available. What do you do if you are out and need a can? Log onto Ebay and wait! 
HotShot, ES12, ES12a etc. are all HC blends. That means Hydrocarbon. Blends of Propane and Butane. They burn.
They explode. They are against the law!
EPA has a specific ruling against 'Sham Conversions' that are used as a justification to bypass the rules regarding HC refrigerant. Who cares? Ok, if that doesn't deter you, how bout this. They don't work worth a crap. Don't post up from Ontario, or Minnesota and tell me how great the HC blends are. They don't work well in high temperature high humidity areas. I have tried them in FC's and other cars that didn't work well with R134a.
Is this just my opinion? Yes it is, but I have invested lot's of time trying to make HC's work in an FC.
HC's Suck.
HotShot, ES12, ES12a etc. are all HC blends. That means Hydrocarbon. Blends of Propane and Butane. They burn.
They explode. They are against the law! EPA has a specific ruling against 'Sham Conversions' that are used as a justification to bypass the rules regarding HC refrigerant. Who cares? Ok, if that doesn't deter you, how bout this. They don't work worth a crap. Don't post up from Ontario, or Minnesota and tell me how great the HC blends are. They don't work well in high temperature high humidity areas. I have tried them in FC's and other cars that didn't work well with R134a.Is this just my opinion? Yes it is, but I have invested lot's of time trying to make HC's work in an FC.
HC's Suck.
08-04-11, 10:40 PM
#3
What We Need is a New Refrigerant!
If we could design a new refrigerant, what would we ask for? Let's aim high!
The temperature pressure curve should match that of R12.
It should be compatible with the current synthetic oils.
It should be chemically compatible with all current and past A/C system parts.
It would work in R12 cars or even in current R134a cars.
It should cool as well as or better than R12.
It should be tested and proven by car manufacturers, refrigerant manufacturers, government testing labs. How about all of this on 3 different continents???
It should not explode and burn your wife and babies.
It should be cheap.
I should be able to buy it at 7-Eleven. I said 7-fricken-Eleven. Or Home Depot. Or Office Depot. Or Fry's Electronics.
That is aiming high!
The temperature pressure curve should match that of R12.
It should be compatible with the current synthetic oils.
It should be chemically compatible with all current and past A/C system parts.
It would work in R12 cars or even in current R134a cars.
It should cool as well as or better than R12.
It should be tested and proven by car manufacturers, refrigerant manufacturers, government testing labs. How about all of this on 3 different continents???
It should not explode and burn your wife and babies.
It should be cheap.
I should be able to buy it at 7-Eleven. I said 7-fricken-Eleven. Or Home Depot. Or Office Depot. Or Fry's Electronics.
That is aiming high!
08-04-11, 11:33 PM
#4
Introducing Your New Refrigerant: Difloroethane AKA R152a
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,1-Difluoroethane
Tomorrow I will cover temp pressure charts, necessary tools, system capacity, charging proceedures, and
Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Recharging Your A/C*
*but were afraid to ask!
Tomorrow I will cover temp pressure charts, necessary tools, system capacity, charging proceedures, and
Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Recharging Your A/C*
*but were afraid to ask!
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08-05-11, 07:20 AM
#10
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What about R22, used for home refrigeration?
I knew the R134a ran at higher pressures, I didn't know that the condenser coil design had anything to do with the system though.
Might just have to look for a 1996 or later donor car of similar size...
I knew the R134a ran at higher pressures, I didn't know that the condenser coil design had anything to do with the system though.
Might just have to look for a 1996 or later donor car of similar size...
08-05-11, 10:50 AM
#11
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,1-Difluoroethane
Tomorrow I will cover temp pressure charts, necessary tools, system capacity, charging proceedures, and
Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Recharging Your A/C*
*but were afraid to ask!
Tomorrow I will cover temp pressure charts, necessary tools, system capacity, charging proceedures, and
Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Recharging Your A/C*
*but were afraid to ask!
Very interested in the outcome of this!!!
08-05-11, 12:11 PM
#12
I knew this would come up. There is actually an additive that is called 'Bitterment' designed to prevent huffing. I can find no details regarding this ingredient. I was concerned that the additive would have detrimental effects on the system performance, but I have seen none.
I have one car (toyota celica) running the stuff for 2 years, and an 88 FC running it for 1.5 years and my 90 vert running for 6 months with no trouble, degradation, leaks etc.
08-05-11, 01:12 PM
#15
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I am curious, why have the cars Ive converted, blow cold and do so for years without problems on 134?
Flush everyting out, replace r/d, New oil, suck,test and charge.
No fire and brimstone here, I mean if you have a different refrigerant thats great, but like I said nothing but trouble free conversions here.
Flush everyting out, replace r/d, New oil, suck,test and charge.
No fire and brimstone here, I mean if you have a different refrigerant thats great, but like I said nothing but trouble free conversions here.
Why not convert to R134a? The serpentine condenser is just barely adequate for R12 use. The condenser capacity is woefully inadequate for use in an R134a conversion. With inadequate heat rejection capacity, a converted system will produce head pressures that run dangerously high. The hot high-pressure gas cannot reject enough heat and so does not completely condense in cases of high load. Thus the system will not cool well when you need it most, when it is HOT! Additionally, the excessive pressure can damage the compressor, make the engine more likely to stall at lights, burst the rubber lines, blow the fusible plug out of the dryer and just generally cause havoc.
08-05-11, 02:15 PM
#16
I am curious, why have the cars Ive converted, blow cold and do so for years without problems on 134?
Flush everyting out, replace r/d, New oil, suck,test and charge.
No fire and brimstone here, I mean if you have a different refrigerant thats great, but like I said nothing but trouble free conversions here.
Flush everyting out, replace r/d, New oil, suck,test and charge.
No fire and brimstone here, I mean if you have a different refrigerant thats great, but like I said nothing but trouble free conversions here.
I've tried 134 in my car, and I damn near melted driving through Indio to El Centro.
08-05-11, 03:46 PM
#17
Interesting. Given my restoration project had non working AC when the project started, I'm certainly interested in what lies ahead in this thread. I was set on going with R12 and just pony up the cash and get it done, but if there's a cheaper way that's just as good, then why not?
08-05-11, 06:49 PM
#18
Ok, Apply the Exclusion for Minnesota and Ontario to R134a as Well!
I am curious, why have the cars Ive converted, blow cold and do so for years without problems on 134?
Flush everyting out, replace r/d, New oil, suck,test and charge.
No fire and brimstone here, I mean if you have a different refrigerant thats great, but like I said nothing but trouble free conversions here.
Flush everyting out, replace r/d, New oil, suck,test and charge.
No fire and brimstone here, I mean if you have a different refrigerant thats great, but like I said nothing but trouble free conversions here.
...or you live in Minnesota 
.Hell, I can make 134a work in February in Dallas, which is about like your summer.
Words have meaning, especially in Physics. It is a Temperature/Pressure Curve. You guys up north don't have the temps we have in the south. It makes a difference in both load on the system and the pressures experienced. If it works for you, then fine, stop reading now before I totally offend you.
Ok, Greg didn't really say this: I made it up. But he would have before the thread is finished.
Minneapolis, MN
Temp: 83F
Feels like: 86F
Cloudy
Humidity: 60%
Wind: S at 8 mph
Updated: 8/5/11 6:05 PM CDT
Now for Argyle, TX
Temp: 106F
Feels like: 106F
Sunny
Humidity: 20%
Wind: SSE at 13 mph
On your 10 day forecast there is one single day where your HIGH TEMP is going to be as high as our for a low temp on the 10 day forecast. Yesterday when I left my house at 4:45 AM the temperature was 89*. That afternoon it was 109* and was still 105* at 10pm.
Enough for the Peanut Gallery and back to the Science.
08-05-11, 09:19 PM
#20
Temperature Pressure Chart R12/R134a/R152a
Observe that the pressures of 152a are quite similar to R12.
Both R152a and R12 are lower pressure than R134a.
We accomplish the pressure desired.
R152a is Difloroethane.
R134a is Tetrafluoroethane.
The two share many characteristics, including compatibility with synthetic lubricants, PAG and Ester oils, along with O-rings and hose compatibility.
I have purchased R152a at Lowes, Office Depot, Walmart and Fry's Electronics. I have seen it at a 7-fricken'-Eleven.
Both R152a and R12 are lower pressure than R134a.
We accomplish the pressure desired.
R152a is Difloroethane.
R134a is Tetrafluoroethane.
The two share many characteristics, including compatibility with synthetic lubricants, PAG and Ester oils, along with O-rings and hose compatibility.
I have purchased R152a at Lowes, Office Depot, Walmart and Fry's Electronics. I have seen it at a 7-fricken'-Eleven.
08-05-11, 09:24 PM
#21
AGreen is absolutely correct! All the 152a duster cans are the exact same diameter as the old R12 cans. I am using a 35 year-old can side tap. You can buy the one AGreen shows on ebay for a few bucks.
08-05-11, 09:44 PM
#22
Now Some Other News- Consider the Environmental Impact!
Did you know that R134a is being phased out globally? But didn't 134a replace R12 because R12=bad for the ozone and R134a=good for the ozone????
Since we have saved the Ozone, the wadded-pantie types have a new Boogieman: Global Warming!
European mandates say that by 2011 new car models must have refrigerant with a global warming potential of less than 150. R134a has a global warming potential af 1300. By 2017, all cars in Europe must comply. Forced retrofitting looms for Europe.
German car makers have chosen CO2-carbon dioxide.
Other makers are considering various other refrigerants, including R152a. R152a has a global warming potential of just 140. As we have seen, it is nearly a straight drop-in for R134a. Tests by GM Delphi show that R152a is up to 17% more efficient than R134a and uses 10% less fuel for cooling. Australian government and University testing shows similar results.
R152a has just been approved by the EPA as an alternative Refrigerant.
Everything sounds great right? So why are *you* guys just now hearing about it?
Since we have saved the Ozone, the wadded-pantie types have a new Boogieman: Global Warming!
European mandates say that by 2011 new car models must have refrigerant with a global warming potential of less than 150. R134a has a global warming potential af 1300. By 2017, all cars in Europe must comply. Forced retrofitting looms for Europe.
German car makers have chosen CO2-carbon dioxide.
Other makers are considering various other refrigerants, including R152a. R152a has a global warming potential of just 140. As we have seen, it is nearly a straight drop-in for R134a. Tests by GM Delphi show that R152a is up to 17% more efficient than R134a and uses 10% less fuel for cooling. Australian government and University testing shows similar results.
R152a has just been approved by the EPA as an alternative Refrigerant.
Everything sounds great right? So why are *you* guys just now hearing about it?
08-05-11, 10:18 PM
#23
Wadded Pantie Types-Remember?
R152a can be burned.
It will not support ignition.
According the the EPA and the CPSC gases are either Non Flammable, Flammable or Extremely Flammable. R152a duster is approved as safe to spray in your office, kitchen living room and yes, in your car to clean off dust. You can spray it all you like. It won't support flame. It is safe in all these environments.
It will not sustain a fire, but it *can* be burned. It does not pass the 'flame-extension test' in which a jet of the aerosol is sprayed over a candle flame. If the flame extends, the gas does not pass and is labelled 'Flammable'.
If the flame travels back down the stream toward the nozzle, or if the flame can be supported when the candle is removed, it is labelled 'Extremely-Flammable'.
In the struggle to replace R134a, there are two contenders other than C02=
R152a and HFO-1234yf. The HFO=1234yf was rated EXACTLY the same as R152a until recently. The battle has shifted to enact new flammability standards to exclude one or the other of these refrigerants with the research and money power of Honeywell/Dupont behind the HFO=1234yf.
HFO=1234yf extends the flame 10 cm. and R152a extends the flame 25 cm. Perhaps an oversimplification of a complicated conflict.
So will R152a kill your wife and babies? You decide. I am using it in my wife's car. I am using it in my FC and my son's FC. I would never use a HC-Hydrocarbon refrigerant in any car.
Tomorrow, we cover charging procedure and rates.
It will not support ignition.
According the the EPA and the CPSC gases are either Non Flammable, Flammable or Extremely Flammable. R152a duster is approved as safe to spray in your office, kitchen living room and yes, in your car to clean off dust. You can spray it all you like. It won't support flame. It is safe in all these environments.
It will not sustain a fire, but it *can* be burned. It does not pass the 'flame-extension test' in which a jet of the aerosol is sprayed over a candle flame. If the flame extends, the gas does not pass and is labelled 'Flammable'.
If the flame travels back down the stream toward the nozzle, or if the flame can be supported when the candle is removed, it is labelled 'Extremely-Flammable'.
In the struggle to replace R134a, there are two contenders other than C02=
R152a and HFO-1234yf. The HFO=1234yf was rated EXACTLY the same as R152a until recently. The battle has shifted to enact new flammability standards to exclude one or the other of these refrigerants with the research and money power of Honeywell/Dupont behind the HFO=1234yf.
HFO=1234yf extends the flame 10 cm. and R152a extends the flame 25 cm. Perhaps an oversimplification of a complicated conflict.
So will R152a kill your wife and babies? You decide. I am using it in my wife's car. I am using it in my FC and my son's FC. I would never use a HC-Hydrocarbon refrigerant in any car.
Tomorrow, we cover charging procedure and rates.
