Wolf 3D Zeroing the Wolf
Thread Starter
Coyote
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 953
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From: Malta. Europe
jeremy.... you sure made alot of homework!!!
Well TDC should be with the red line.... apperently some 20* to the right of the V....
But i stand to be corrected, because I was told that the V IS NOT at 20 ATDC but the notch is( the one you pointed to on the previous picture)
I need to get an actual degrees of the V. If i know that the notch is at 20*ATDC i must be sure that mechanically the V is at a particular degree...apperently some 15-18*ATDC.....
My shop is checking it out on an open engine to be sure that the rotor is at the mechanical TDC!!!!in other words at the max compression throw of the rotor...
Will post later...
George
Well TDC should be with the red line.... apperently some 20* to the right of the V....
But i stand to be corrected, because I was told that the V IS NOT at 20 ATDC but the notch is( the one you pointed to on the previous picture)
I need to get an actual degrees of the V. If i know that the notch is at 20*ATDC i must be sure that mechanically the V is at a particular degree...apperently some 15-18*ATDC.....
My shop is checking it out on an open engine to be sure that the rotor is at the mechanical TDC!!!!in other words at the max compression throw of the rotor...
Will post later...
George
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 778
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From: North Queensland Australia
Originally Posted by signofinfinity
jeremy.... you sure made alot of homework!!!
Well TDC should be with the red line.... apperently some 20* to the right of the V....
But i stand to be corrected, because I was told that the V IS NOT at 20 ATDC but the notch is( the one you pointed to on the previous picture)
I need to get an actual degrees of the V. If i know that the notch is at 20*ATDC i must be sure that mechanically the V is at a particular degree...apperently some 15-18*ATDC.....
My shop is checking it out on an open engine to be sure that the rotor is at the mechanical TDC!!!!in other words at the max compression throw of the rotor...
Will post later...
George
Well TDC should be with the red line.... apperently some 20* to the right of the V....
But i stand to be corrected, because I was told that the V IS NOT at 20 ATDC but the notch is( the one you pointed to on the previous picture)
I need to get an actual degrees of the V. If i know that the notch is at 20*ATDC i must be sure that mechanically the V is at a particular degree...apperently some 15-18*ATDC.....
My shop is checking it out on an open engine to be sure that the rotor is at the mechanical TDC!!!!in other words at the max compression throw of the rotor...
Will post later...
George
TDC looks good to me!!
Hows this look????
Michael Smith
Bumble Bee RX-3
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: Palm Harbor, Florida
Hi Rotormotor,
Your positioning of the CAS wheel is not right, need rotate the V to the 340* position, remember ATDC would be to the left of 0* and BTDC is to the right... this now also places the single sync tab and the inner bar that would trigger the reference pick-up back their approx location...
Does anyone have a picture of a series 6 pulley hub off the engine... please post it...
Ok... On the eccentric there is a keyway used to locate the front counter weight, oil pump drive sprocket and pulley hub... this keyway is exactly 180* opposite of the lobe that moves the front rotor to the TDC position, so when facing the engine, the keyway is pointing to the left (9:00 position), the front rotor is at TDC... now on every rotary engine since late 1973 (both A and B models) to 1991, this puts the pointer at 0* on the pulley and the mounting bolt holes at approx 11:00, 2:00 5:00 and 8:00 positions, now I do not recommend that anyone runs out an takes the front eccentric bolt out or removes the hub assembly as very bad things can happen if not done carefully or reinstalled correctly and to the correct torque... does the placment of the CAS wheel matter... there are small index marks on the hub and back side of the CAS wheel to insure it...
Gregg
Your positioning of the CAS wheel is not right, need rotate the V to the 340* position, remember ATDC would be to the left of 0* and BTDC is to the right... this now also places the single sync tab and the inner bar that would trigger the reference pick-up back their approx location...
Does anyone have a picture of a series 6 pulley hub off the engine... please post it...
Ok... On the eccentric there is a keyway used to locate the front counter weight, oil pump drive sprocket and pulley hub... this keyway is exactly 180* opposite of the lobe that moves the front rotor to the TDC position, so when facing the engine, the keyway is pointing to the left (9:00 position), the front rotor is at TDC... now on every rotary engine since late 1973 (both A and B models) to 1991, this puts the pointer at 0* on the pulley and the mounting bolt holes at approx 11:00, 2:00 5:00 and 8:00 positions, now I do not recommend that anyone runs out an takes the front eccentric bolt out or removes the hub assembly as very bad things can happen if not done carefully or reinstalled correctly and to the correct torque... does the placment of the CAS wheel matter... there are small index marks on the hub and back side of the CAS wheel to insure it...
Gregg
Bumble Bee RX-3
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: Palm Harbor, Florida
Hi George,
You are correct, sorry for the slip up in the wording, the FD has no CAS but a CAS plate, located directly behind the pulley, sorry, after my first postings I started to refer to it as a CAS wheel...
Gregg
You are correct, sorry for the slip up in the wording, the FD has no CAS but a CAS plate, located directly behind the pulley, sorry, after my first postings I started to refer to it as a CAS wheel...
Gregg
Last edited by GORacing; Jan 28, 2006 at 11:41 PM.
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 778
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From: North Queensland Australia
Originally Posted by GORacing
Hi Rotormotor,
Your positioning of the CAS wheel is not right, need rotate the V to the 340* position, remember ATDC would be to the left of 0* and BTDC is to the right... this now also places the single sync tab and the inner bar that would trigger the reference pick-up back their approx location...
Gregg
Your positioning of the CAS wheel is not right, need rotate the V to the 340* position, remember ATDC would be to the left of 0* and BTDC is to the right... this now also places the single sync tab and the inner bar that would trigger the reference pick-up back their approx location...
Gregg
Cheers
Michael Smith
Bumble Bee RX-3
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: Palm Harbor, Florida
Hi Michael,
Sorry... Rotormotor made the comment that he wanted his picture to be used by others who may try to use this thread in the future, so I replied to his request for input... made no comment to any other posts concerning the use of his picture...
And, Come on guys...... I did not name the components located on the engine that are used to Sense the Angular position of the Crank (yes I know it is an eccentric shaft),
if you want to discuss what is and is not a CAS component you may go to 1993 RX-7 Mazda Shop Manual, Chapter F, section - Engine Tune-up, page F-16, paragraph - Ignition Timing, specifically lines 8 and 9, and then take it up with Mazda...
My many years of aviation background forces me to research and reference anything I do, along with remaining reasonably consistent in the terms I use, that way anyone in the world can expect to go to the same manual and know what I am refering to... I do my best to maintain that level of accuracy even in an informal forum like this...
With this I hope we can get back to the fun of sharing and learning from each other... : )
Gregg
Sorry... Rotormotor made the comment that he wanted his picture to be used by others who may try to use this thread in the future, so I replied to his request for input... made no comment to any other posts concerning the use of his picture...
And, Come on guys...... I did not name the components located on the engine that are used to Sense the Angular position of the Crank (yes I know it is an eccentric shaft),
if you want to discuss what is and is not a CAS component you may go to 1993 RX-7 Mazda Shop Manual, Chapter F, section - Engine Tune-up, page F-16, paragraph - Ignition Timing, specifically lines 8 and 9, and then take it up with Mazda...
My many years of aviation background forces me to research and reference anything I do, along with remaining reasonably consistent in the terms I use, that way anyone in the world can expect to go to the same manual and know what I am refering to... I do my best to maintain that level of accuracy even in an informal forum like this...
With this I hope we can get back to the fun of sharing and learning from each other... : )
Gregg
Thread Starter
Coyote
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 953
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From: Malta. Europe
hey gregg,
No worries mate! We are all trying to learn from one another. Unluckily this is the only source of info so we struggle to come up with issues to be solved.If we all got it right first time then ... whats the point of this??
Update to What michael said.
True... I check with the light gun, 0degs Ign, the V aligned with the notch at 74 Deges!!!!!
Thats to confirm what michael said.
However I will have to mess about with a dead engine. For some reason, I first had a low Pressure indication, then the engine sounding funny then a vibration in the drive train...I got towed home.ps all this happened at 2000 rpm!!!!!!
This morning, check pressure with eng running.. indicated low. attached a mech oil press gauge... tally ho. Just the oil pressure transmitter ... screwed! we vibration tracked the noise to the rear turbo! Comp tested the rotors, and both where 79 80 80!!! so it aint an apex...forward turbo has massive shaft play god knows the rear...thank god i ordered a TO4R... BUt I must spend some more $$$$ to get a fuel system an an FMIC and SS Manifold..some 1000USD to go!Damn
Back to the thread.
I will pull out the trigger wheel and measure the V. I need to see the degrees for that in relation to tdc!
but michaels maths work....
What you think gregg?
Regards
George
No worries mate! We are all trying to learn from one another. Unluckily this is the only source of info so we struggle to come up with issues to be solved.If we all got it right first time then ... whats the point of this??
Update to What michael said.
True... I check with the light gun, 0degs Ign, the V aligned with the notch at 74 Deges!!!!!
Thats to confirm what michael said.
However I will have to mess about with a dead engine. For some reason, I first had a low Pressure indication, then the engine sounding funny then a vibration in the drive train...I got towed home.ps all this happened at 2000 rpm!!!!!!
This morning, check pressure with eng running.. indicated low. attached a mech oil press gauge... tally ho. Just the oil pressure transmitter ... screwed! we vibration tracked the noise to the rear turbo! Comp tested the rotors, and both where 79 80 80!!! so it aint an apex...forward turbo has massive shaft play god knows the rear...thank god i ordered a TO4R... BUt I must spend some more $$$$ to get a fuel system an an FMIC and SS Manifold..some 1000USD to go!Damn
Back to the thread.
I will pull out the trigger wheel and measure the V. I need to see the degrees for that in relation to tdc!
but michaels maths work....
What you think gregg?
Regards
George
Last edited by signofinfinity; Jan 29, 2006 at 10:30 AM.
Passenger
Posts: n/a
Better?
Better PIC?
also ....
"before i installed my engine i looked into the rear rotor housing through the Trailing plug hole until the apex was in the middle and then i made a mark on my timing wheel and then i turned that same apex seal centered into the Leading plug hole and then made a mark and then i averaged the lines and was told that this was TDC"
The final mark i made fell in the middle of one of the 12 teeth, like exactly, which means when the front roter was at max compression that is where the mark was....
also michael, where did you get the number 57° from, a visual guess based off my picture? or elsewhere, cause on this new pic, if you align with the trigger pickup, it looks more like 54° or 55° from 60° (114° or 115°)
also ....
"before i installed my engine i looked into the rear rotor housing through the Trailing plug hole until the apex was in the middle and then i made a mark on my timing wheel and then i turned that same apex seal centered into the Leading plug hole and then made a mark and then i averaged the lines and was told that this was TDC"
The final mark i made fell in the middle of one of the 12 teeth, like exactly, which means when the front roter was at max compression that is where the mark was....
also michael, where did you get the number 57° from, a visual guess based off my picture? or elsewhere, cause on this new pic, if you align with the trigger pickup, it looks more like 54° or 55° from 60° (114° or 115°)
Passenger
Posts: n/a
Hmm
HMM, the TDC i got mechanicly is 8° different than what you all mention..... maybe i have an error when i did it but i have my TDC @ 28° to the right of the "v" instead of 20°
well i corrected my own answer today about if the timing wheel could be put on 180° wrong and the answer is no, not while having all 4 10mm pully bolts installed. only 2 would fit if on wrong, here are some more pictures:
well i corrected my own answer today about if the timing wheel could be put on 180° wrong and the answer is no, not while having all 4 10mm pully bolts installed. only 2 would fit if on wrong, here are some more pictures:
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 778
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From: North Queensland Australia
OK thats great stuff those pic's. Thanks Rotomotor2
It does look like the lower pickup is about 74 degrees.
I just pulled 57degrees from memory of a thread 10000 years ago..I guess it could have been 47 degrees. Anyway we are all learning more!!!!!!!!!!
I haven't seen a series 6 in ages and there are only 3 rotaries in town and for the hard faults the mechanics call me and ask. Both the others are NA's where I cut my teeth. Nothing like a Turbo though!!!
Cheers
Michael Smith
It does look like the lower pickup is about 74 degrees.
I just pulled 57degrees from memory of a thread 10000 years ago..I guess it could have been 47 degrees. Anyway we are all learning more!!!!!!!!!!
I haven't seen a series 6 in ages and there are only 3 rotaries in town and for the hard faults the mechanics call me and ask. Both the others are NA's where I cut my teeth. Nothing like a Turbo though!!!
Cheers
Michael Smith
more pics
Bumble Bee RX-3
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: Palm Harbor, Florida
Hi All,
Rotormotor, great job on the pictures, the last one was actually one I was looking for...
Ok, using the spark plug holes to help find TDC is a no go, the holes are not symetrical to TDC...
Looking at the sensor plate, notice there are 12 spokes, this means each one is 30* apart... each one is an ideal fixed reference point...looking at the first picture Rotormotor supplied (I have modified it to move the plate to approx where I needed it)... 0* is going to be approx 2/3's of a space to the right (the center Red line)... TDC location is now found, if Rotormotor can accurately measure the diameter we can do the math and figure out the actual spacing of degrees along the outer circumference and can then acurately mark ours ( I tried reaching mine and came up with around 128mm)...
On the 1st picture I indicated along the outer edge (w/ green lines) my recomendation of marks with the first one to the left of 0* being the factory 5* ATDC (you guys are using entirely too much timing advance below 750 RPM, factory starting timing for the majority of 13B's is around 8*ADTC, on an extended port I been using between 3*ATDC and 0* at 750RPM for years... and even on my automatic)...
The 2nd picture I am posting (I hope it is readable), shows the CAS plate almost exactly as the wolf installation manual section 3.2.5 says it should be for the reference pulse to occure, this pulse happens at approx 10* BTDC as shown with the yellow arc I have marked on the 1st picture (NOTE-Rotormotor's last picture shows a spoke almost centered over the reference pick-up and two spokes or 60* to the left is the timing pin, and looking at the 2nd picture I posted you can see which spoke should actually be over the reference pick-up ), with the wolf looking for it at 60*BTDC (the second red line), the approx difference is around 50 degrees (the green arc on picture 1), this is what I am understanding needs to be set with the Trigger1 input to correct for the pick-up positional error...
Now until some one can mark their's and confirm the exact numbers, this stuff here is probably +/- around 3 to 4* but the ideas on figuring it out are outlined...
it is late and the mind grows fuzzy...
Gregg
Rotormotor, great job on the pictures, the last one was actually one I was looking for...
Ok, using the spark plug holes to help find TDC is a no go, the holes are not symetrical to TDC...
Looking at the sensor plate, notice there are 12 spokes, this means each one is 30* apart... each one is an ideal fixed reference point...looking at the first picture Rotormotor supplied (I have modified it to move the plate to approx where I needed it)... 0* is going to be approx 2/3's of a space to the right (the center Red line)... TDC location is now found, if Rotormotor can accurately measure the diameter we can do the math and figure out the actual spacing of degrees along the outer circumference and can then acurately mark ours ( I tried reaching mine and came up with around 128mm)...
On the 1st picture I indicated along the outer edge (w/ green lines) my recomendation of marks with the first one to the left of 0* being the factory 5* ATDC (you guys are using entirely too much timing advance below 750 RPM, factory starting timing for the majority of 13B's is around 8*ADTC, on an extended port I been using between 3*ATDC and 0* at 750RPM for years... and even on my automatic)...
The 2nd picture I am posting (I hope it is readable), shows the CAS plate almost exactly as the wolf installation manual section 3.2.5 says it should be for the reference pulse to occure, this pulse happens at approx 10* BTDC as shown with the yellow arc I have marked on the 1st picture (NOTE-Rotormotor's last picture shows a spoke almost centered over the reference pick-up and two spokes or 60* to the left is the timing pin, and looking at the 2nd picture I posted you can see which spoke should actually be over the reference pick-up ), with the wolf looking for it at 60*BTDC (the second red line), the approx difference is around 50 degrees (the green arc on picture 1), this is what I am understanding needs to be set with the Trigger1 input to correct for the pick-up positional error...
Now until some one can mark their's and confirm the exact numbers, this stuff here is probably +/- around 3 to 4* but the ideas on figuring it out are outlined...
it is late and the mind grows fuzzy...
Gregg
Bumble Bee RX-3
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: Palm Harbor, Florida
Hi Rotormotor,
Cooooool, you have a picture of the hub with out the eccentric bolt... see the keyway to the left of center... that has to be parrallel with the bottom of the front cover (the oilpan to block sealing surface), that will place the eccetric at true TDC...
Gregg
Cooooool, you have a picture of the hub with out the eccentric bolt... see the keyway to the left of center... that has to be parrallel with the bottom of the front cover (the oilpan to block sealing surface), that will place the eccetric at true TDC...
Gregg
Passenger
Posts: n/a
I got 5 1/32" diameter using a framing square, so it could be like + or - like 1/32 so it could be 5" even or a metric number but if you convert 5 1/32" into millimeters it is 153.3525. but all this should not matter, i am going to take my wheel to my friends shop and use his tools to mark it, for example, he has a mill and i am going to put a chisel in the chuck and correctly place my wheel on his round table thing that i think is called a dial indacator table? it is a machineing thing, it has 360 markings around the side of the table and a wheel you spin to rotate the large plate and is accurate up to like thousands of an inch i would imagine, and where ever i want a mark i will just drop the chisel (mill off of course) and it will mark it. can i have some vocab. help? i can also do this for anybody if you ship me your wheel or what might be easier is after i am done with my wheel i can mark it accurately on paper or something and mail copies of it out to all of you, my only issues are where true TDC is to get started (i think we already got this) and what other marks i want to put on there so i dont have 360 marks on it (or do i?) well to be continued......
Passenger
Posts: n/a
No way george!, that is my brothers 13BRE cosmo motor with the FD front cover i fabbed onto it! i have not assembled anything on it yet just drilled and tapped a few things, it is still a short block.
I re-measured the wheel with a more accurate ruler and confirmed it is 5 1/32" or 127.7937 mm (sory about typo last post) which would make a circumference of 401.4757 mm but if it is metric and 128 mm in diameter then that would make the circumference 402.1238 all this is somewhere in the range of 1.1152 mm to 1.117 mm per degree or .0439" to .0439" (near 3/64ths")
I will get these numbers more precise when i get my micromoter out...
I re-measured the wheel with a more accurate ruler and confirmed it is 5 1/32" or 127.7937 mm (sory about typo last post) which would make a circumference of 401.4757 mm but if it is metric and 128 mm in diameter then that would make the circumference 402.1238 all this is somewhere in the range of 1.1152 mm to 1.117 mm per degree or .0439" to .0439" (near 3/64ths")
I will get these numbers more precise when i get my micromoter out...
Passenger
Posts: n/a
Ok so here's how it looks: I used a rotary table/index table on a mill with a chizel for a bit and marked my timing marks, then i decided to powder coat the front half of the wheel gloss black and i took out the powder from the grooves before baking, then i wanted to take my silver/chrome powder and use a little in the timing mark grooves and bake it, so here is how it came out..... anybody want me to do this for them? im thinkin $35 for marking and another $20 if you want it powder coated 2 tone..... return shipping included. i also have a extra wheel so if you order it ahead of time i can have it done and shipped the same time i get your core...... let me know....
Bumble Bee RX-3
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: Palm Harbor, Florida
Hi Rotormotor,
Looks outstanding, very professional looking...
I offer a couple of suggestions i have gained from experience...
I would extend the marks to around at least 45* BTDC as this is useful for checking the full range of timing that one would expect to use, and while the 1 degree increments are great for accuracy, they are difficult to read clearly especially at lower RPM when the timing light is flashing slow or in bright light conditions, I think you would find a mark every 2* would be easier to read...
Gregg
Looks outstanding, very professional looking...
I offer a couple of suggestions i have gained from experience...
I would extend the marks to around at least 45* BTDC as this is useful for checking the full range of timing that one would expect to use, and while the 1 degree increments are great for accuracy, they are difficult to read clearly especially at lower RPM when the timing light is flashing slow or in bright light conditions, I think you would find a mark every 2* would be easier to read...
Gregg
Passenger
Posts: n/a
hey GoRacing,
i dont understand why to mark to 45°, if your timing is there then isnt that going to like make your engine want to run backwards? wait, my map is set to 40 at 0 load, hmm explain? gas takes a while to burn? i will now mark it to 50°
i dont understand why to mark to 45°, if your timing is there then isnt that going to like make your engine want to run backwards? wait, my map is set to 40 at 0 load, hmm explain? gas takes a while to burn? i will now mark it to 50°
Bumble Bee RX-3
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: Palm Harbor, Florida
Hi Rotormotor,
There are volumes of info written on this subject, but I will try to keep it short...
First thought to accept... ignition mapping is three (3) dimensional, basically (and I do mean the very basics), timing advances with rpm and retards as load (MAP) increases... there are many things that will require modifing of the base timing advance curve but I will not cover them now...
Advancing of the timing as RPM increases is required as an air/ fuel mixture of a given ratio will burn at a fixed rate... but as rpm increases, the time available (measured in crank shaft rotation), for the mixture to burn has shortened, but more importantly, the point of rotation that the eccentric has to be in upon completion of the combustion process will have already gone by....so simply, we have to start the fire sooner to get the process to end when the shaft is in the best position.
Retarding the timing due to load... this one is a little harder to explain in writing... take two chambers, both the same size and shape, and remove all the air, etc from it... #1 chamber has been filled 10% of capacity (representing idle or light throttle), with a 14.7:1 mixture of air and fuel, #2 chamber is filled to 100% capacity (representing WOT ), with a 14.7:1 mixture of air and fuel... the #1 chamber is going to take longer to complete the combustion process due to the longer time it takes for the heat energy to transfer from molecule to widely spaced molecule, #2 will take less time because all the molecules are closer together... so even thou both mixtures are the same, the chamber with the less dense mixture (#1) will require more timing at a given rpm than the #2 chamber...
I hope this is a good start...
Gregg
There are volumes of info written on this subject, but I will try to keep it short...
First thought to accept... ignition mapping is three (3) dimensional, basically (and I do mean the very basics), timing advances with rpm and retards as load (MAP) increases... there are many things that will require modifing of the base timing advance curve but I will not cover them now...
Advancing of the timing as RPM increases is required as an air/ fuel mixture of a given ratio will burn at a fixed rate... but as rpm increases, the time available (measured in crank shaft rotation), for the mixture to burn has shortened, but more importantly, the point of rotation that the eccentric has to be in upon completion of the combustion process will have already gone by....so simply, we have to start the fire sooner to get the process to end when the shaft is in the best position.
Retarding the timing due to load... this one is a little harder to explain in writing... take two chambers, both the same size and shape, and remove all the air, etc from it... #1 chamber has been filled 10% of capacity (representing idle or light throttle), with a 14.7:1 mixture of air and fuel, #2 chamber is filled to 100% capacity (representing WOT ), with a 14.7:1 mixture of air and fuel... the #1 chamber is going to take longer to complete the combustion process due to the longer time it takes for the heat energy to transfer from molecule to widely spaced molecule, #2 will take less time because all the molecules are closer together... so even thou both mixtures are the same, the chamber with the less dense mixture (#1) will require more timing at a given rpm than the #2 chamber...
I hope this is a good start...
Gregg
Passenger
Posts: n/a
makes perfect sence, got it, now back to topic, i can now take my newly marked wheel and with my timing light set to L1 and my map set to 0° everywhere and no transients on and split set to 20 i can adjust my trigger 1 until the needle aligns with 0° on the wheel and then move the timing light pickup to T1 and see if it aligns with the V @ -20?