My Tuning
 

Well here it is soo far, I have a Innovate unit for a WB and stock twins for 2 more weeks....... ps im way rich.....ha ha what do you think soo far? also when i have a semi warm engine after a shut down it doesnt like to start well, takes a few times, heat soak in the air temp sensor?

the input description is how i have my innovate setup
and the cold start is just my car warming up until cooling fans kick on at 70
and the toorich is a road test

P.S. right click and save to disk, i cannot upload .log files to this site

http://home.comcast.net/~jeremylarso...escrjeremy.log
http://home.comcast.net/~jeremylarso...tartbetter.log
http://home.comcast.net/~jeremylarson/toorich.log

Jeremy

well my car timed at 58.7 and i have a new map now, i will post it up later

Well here is my new map..... still tuning.

hmmmm, you trigger one dual pulse window should be set to 3..... you are on 2.

since you are multicoil and hall sensors and no cas......fds are with a 3 pulse window


i stand to be corrected....

Still tuning....
 

Any better guys? what do you think so far?

*--------> Even better.
 

Is this going to be safe to start road testing?

...looks familiar.... :D


be sure to run rich...

and reset your boost activation...

and always keep an ear for knocks!!

new fuel map and lil ign map
 

having problem with boost also, only hits 7 (spring) and makes a woooooshhhhhh noise when i am up in rpms like my air bypass valve isnt working..... can somebody look at my map?

frustrated
 

well i fixed the wooosh noise (aux 5 polarity was wrong) but i still cant boost past 7 psi !! i checked my silinoid and it is ok and clicks fast when i set the boost activation pressure down below my realtime load but why cant i boost?
can somebody look at my map and see if it is a setting? BTW aux 4 is controlling what aux 1 used to (charge control silinoid) or is there something else i need to check?

Forgot my map....
 

also what is the boost valve pressure position map? what does that do? i have mine set at 105 across the board and i see others at 125?........

How large is the bleed orfice???(the hole that vents to the atmosphere) If the bleed hole is too small then it will be the limiting factor in your boost control . The bleed should be big enough to let the boost vent without opening the wastegate(creep) The Soleniod then should be closed with no power on to be fail safe. The soleniod is then controlled to set boost pressure. Don't forget it not ony has to vent the air going to the wastgate but also the air already in the wastegate. Sometimes you need to put a restrictor in the line to the manifold to make the soleniod more sensitive. This does add to the activation time of the wastegate but as long as you don't go too small or the line is not too long,(if you need a restictor place it right near the soleniod on the manifold side) you should be o.k. I have had a look at how the Wolf boost control works and I think it could be better. Like having a maximum boost pressure set in psi for each 125 rpm and let the rest of the setup be kept within the control of the ecu.

Michael Smith

well it is set up like oem fd, stock rails stock setup, so the silinoid goes to the rail that goes down to the turbos and intake elbow, so when the silinoid opens it allows suction to happen from the intake elbow to the wastegate, i checked flow just now and it is good, i am also not sure if my prespool is working either, suction should work better than venting to the atmosphere right?

The soleniod has a vent on one end with a little filter. If you have a standard boost control system did you place the diodes across the soleniod to increase the response of the soleniod. My guess is that your dynamic control of your turbo is not working either. It needs to be on at 2700rpm and the throttlebody does the rest.

Michael Smith

I am talking about solinoids I and J in the workshop manuel, there is no filter on them, when they switch on they allow flow to blow through the back of the wastegate and through the solinoid and to the intake elbow, when its closed it blocks that path and when the boost builds up behind the wastegate enough it pushes the wastegate open (7psi). also how would a diode help a electromagnet? and what do you mean by: "My guess is that your dynamic control of your turbo is not working either. It needs to be on at 2700rpm and the throttlebody does the rest." ?

ok. there is a set of little solenoids that manage if one or both turbos are working. This is the dynamic control it allows 1 or 2 turbos to work. It has a little filter on the end. The other solenoids for boost control and precharge are vented back to the inlet manifold and have no filter. If the Dynamic control of your turbo's doesn't work you wil only have 1 turbo running the primary one. Once the little black solenoid opens and you open the throttle at about 2700rpm enough vacuum is present on the line to the dynamic control to allow the second turbo to come online. If this doesn't happen I suspect that you would have low boost problems as the single turbo chokes off your motor! In the Wolf manual it states that diodes should be placed across the solenoids as the wolf has no BACK EMF protection(large voltage spike protection) P32 in the install manual.

Michael Smith
P.S very complex beasty I prefer my TII with one turbo much simpler

i have no other problems besides the psi, my charge relief works fine (aux 5) my charge control works fine (aux4 was 1) and my turbo control (aux3) all work fine, so that is why i am confused, its like the wolf isnt doing something right.....

You know what, maybe you maybe your soleniod is not opening at all. The solenoid needs to open to provide boost control above 7 psi. By default the system is designed to limit boost if the solenoid fails. Under the boost controller the solenoid should be open until about 6.5 psi and then close. This stops boost creep. My guess is that possibly the solenoid may be stuck or could you have a crook Aux output. As I said before they need to have a diode fitted across the solenoid(and have it the right way around) to protect the Wolf from damage in the generic version ...plugins are different they must have some form of inbuilt protection. Can you put a meter on the AUX output at the ecu and take it for a drive. If you see 12 Volts all the time your AUX output is faulty or configured wrong , or if you see 0Volts all the time you may have a wiring fault. It should be between say 3 and 9 volts and be varying with a change in duty cycle. I am not sure but I think the valve may even be 0 volts at startup and below 6.5psi to stop boost creep.

Michael Smith

Single
 

Well im single turbo now and here is my garage AFR free rev test, tell me what you think:

RotorMotor2, for a no load test it is too rich for a free rev you should see 14.5 to 15.0 some people say it should be leaner but for a rotary I wouldn't go leaner than 15.0 unless you are backing off. When I am tuning I run 14.5-14.7 and then I floor it to watch it for my accellerator pump setting you shouldn't go leaner if it does it will stumble. As you hit the gas you should aim for 12.2 at that instant then free rev running at 14.5 -15.0 on pump gas.
Thats what I think. What have the rest of you have to say???

Michael Smith
P.S. RICH is safe!

Look
 

Opinions wanted here good and bad.

Looks all a little rich to me.
When Steve Kan tuned my Wolf, he went mid 12's from the '0' psi transition point till about 5 psi, then mid 11's to 15 psi, after that low 11's.

Running in the 9's and 10's at anything under 20 psi you are just losing power...

Impounded
 

Yup thats right, I just got my car impounded doing this road test, well I will get it out Monday, either way here is my next phase of testing:

49% load is too lean it should be around 13, 56% load should be around 12.7, 63% load should be around 12.3 you need to look at the 6500 rpm value that can cost you a engine. 70% load you need to be around 12.2, 77% load you need to be around 12.1,84% load you need to be around 12.0, 100% load you need to be around 11.7-11.5

BTW this is my opinion others may differ use you descression

Michael Smith

too lean imho

would it matter if i said that 44%=0psi and 77% =10psi ?

I am trying to tune to 12.3 on idle to 12.5 just out of idle and then 12, 11.5, 11, then 10.5 at 10psi and up, anybody got any tuning advice as far as where to make these adjustments? ie: staging? fuel map? acc enrich is off by the way to get an accurate main fuel map (is this only for first jab of the throttle? or is it more?)
Thanks,
Jeremy

40 = 0psi.
10.5 at 10psi and up is a tad rich

i generally go for 12.5:1 when boost starts down to like 11.3 at 10psi and 10.8-11:1 at 15psi and up

nyt, my scaling is different, my 0psi is 44 with engine off, i have set my hand controller to 18psi, so :
load | psi | AFR (reccomended)
44 = 0 - 12.5
50 = 1.6 - 12.3
57 = 3.8 - 12.0
64 = 5.6 - 11.8
71 = 7.7 - 11.5
79 = 10 - 11.3
86 = 12.8 - 11.1
93 = 14 - 11.0
100 = 15.4 - 10.8
107 = 18 - 10.5

anybody care to copy and paste? also hows my timing map? I copyed it from george ;)
also NYT should i keep my staging or make it more like yours? i think you have 550/1600 and i have 850/1600.

any more tuning advice? just keep changing my fuel map load bands?
TIA,
Jeremy

well i just wrote up a reply and then accidentally closed the window. ill try to remember everything i said...


first i wouldnt recommend bringing in the secondary injectors until you hit boost. if they fire before that you may get a rough transition, or just kill your fuel economy. lots of time if you fire them before boost, your secondary butterflies on the throttle body wont even be open yet...

also how much boost do you plan to run? load bar 100 is supposed to be the maximum amount.

also, i ran 10.8-11.0:1 at 20psi. if you wanna stay on the safe side take it down to 10.8.. dont really see a need to go to 10.5

your fuel map does need work. you cant just put one value in across the entire load band... the engine will need more fuel as torque peaks and then you can take some off as you reach higher revs.

generally when im tuning i start rich, and bring down the entire load band by itself so that the LEANEST point is exactly where i want it to be, then i take out more fuel from the rich spots so that its even

im looking for a jpg of a datalog i did.. cant find em tho, if i do ill post it

oh also, when i drive around the street.. its generally WAYYY lean in vacuum.. like even past 14:1.... i generally only sway to the rich side of stoich once i hit boost =]

gas prices are high enough as it is=] trying to conserve =]

hmmm but if you are runnin lean, on vacuum, wont your pickup be lousy up to say 3000 rpm?
i am runnin lean too till about 3000 and load 38.... but i do feel a slight hesitation at times..

ps, my ignition table is set with 100load at 15psi. At 18psi I wouldnt run 14deg advance... perhaps 12 or 10.....nyt, correct me is am wrong

This is what I like to see!!!
 

Hi Jeramy and others.
I like the load calc you came up after talking with me.
Thats the way I do it. The gas out here is crap so I
run em' rich for safety.
I just got in from rescueing a fellow with a Cosmo 13B
in his FD. Fuel pumps lost power, I am running 2 for a
redundant system. If one goes out you have a back up!
If you do this you must run a special harness. I may make
up a kit or a parts list for every one.
Jeramy when are you coming to get your HC. I want to see
the new single!
I will be in St. Louis late this month for a dyno day and tune
session.
Thanks Again,
Chris Greene

Nyt my recommendation on AFR was based on 7psi as 100% in which case for 15-18 psi it would be lean as you pointed out. As far as advance is concerned I run 13 deg at 15 psi and I was told that it was ok, I was also told that around 10 is good enough as the power gain from 10 to 13 degrees is minimal and only move your engine closer to detonation.

Who knows my engine doesn't knock at 13 on the fuel I use.
Michael Smith

i dont have any problems with pickups. transient sensor accel enrichment is there for that so when you step on the gas it gives it extra fuel. i see a lot of people have this disabled.

heres a log of just cruising around... going up and down some hills and just on the highway in 5th gear

http://countercultured.net/pics/logs/cruising.jpg

New Timing map
 

What do you think?
This was givin to me by a well known and respected dyno shop:

for what boost setup? if thats for 15psi... its waaaaaaaaaaaay conservative. also there is no advance as rpm increases....

general rule, as load inc ign dec ... which you have, but, as rpm inc, ign must inc... which you dont...

my 02c

George

its for 18psi

Hey friends, care to imput? would be appreacieated:

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/fc-coils-fd-aftermarket-w-twin-power-511799/

well with the information duscussed on the following thread at the following post and newer, what else could it be that blew my motor? https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=58

this would be a lot easier if my innovate logworks was working properly at the time or if i haddent turned the car off and could see my min max settings on my wolf hand controller, but unfortunatly for me i must do it the manuel mechanics way, R&D or mainly just test and try, so here is a list of the things i am going to do durring this engine swap to make sure the same thing doesent happen again:

1. Check for proper functioning of the wolf boost controller and wastegate to make sure i diddnt spike (shouldent my map have saved me by flooding out the car and by retarding ign to -5?).... (also can somebody send me a paint shop sketch of the vacume house routing for the wastegate [aftermarket] and check my settings in my map?) i have lots of testing to do with this one (#1)

2. Test my coils with a multimeter to see if they are still good and again after baking them to 200° to test under heat. (but if there is no spark then it cant blow engine... just at the wrong time right?)

3. test my crank angle sensors and wiring. (could this be the reason?) also they are like magnets right? and when the metal wheel passes through the magnetic field then it pulses with electricity right? (also i never got an answer about grounding the upper trigger turning on the fuel pump???)

4. check more wiring for the reason that my wideband logger wasnt getting signals and see if it could have affected the ecu... and in turn my timing....

5. also i never found out if i was timing my trigger 1 to the waste spark or the one just before and how to disable the waste spark. (could this be why i blew up?)

6. there is a chance my alternator is not up to full potential as with a larger than stock pully was on it and i had it tested at Napa autoparts it only made 10.5 volts and all i did was switch the stock pully back on there and put it back on the car instead of testing it again, (i also have a underdrive MAIN crank pully & a odasy hawker PC680MJ for a battery) ....... (could this do something like under power the ecu or anything to cause a spark at the wrong time or anything else to blow me up?)

7. open to suggestions for more possible causes or tests i could run......


i was running 91 octane with TORCO octane boost that was tested to raise octane to 96.5 and i also had added like 2 gallons of my 100 octane race fuel in to there so all together i was around 97-99 octane at the time of explode, also had JUST put in new plugs (BUR9EQ all 4)

Hi again RotorMotor2 can you like replay what happened. Like from the first run of the day until it popped. Do you have any data from that day. Temp, boost pressure road conditions ,rpm and gear it was in when it failed. I now a lot of guys use a lot of advance but if you are tuning you engine to run well even 5 degrees less than optimum it will still run great. Higher Advance around idle and light load is ok too. But above N/A ie under any boost always be conservative untill you have it on a dyno fitted with a knock detector/AFR meter . Also if your engine is running rich it is a little more forgiving to over advanced timing. I would personally look at the CAS and base timing. Your fuel should be good. The boost controller not working could also be a factor. I always tune mine on the waste pressure alone first. Then once done you can use the boost controller. MY guess is a combination of both advance spark and higher boost pressure. Have you pulled down the motor yet any clues? Who is building you engine? Do thay have a side seal grinder? or do they use a flat file GGGRRRR another pet hate.

Cheers
Michael Smith

well my engine was an unopened factory 13BRE cosmo engine strait from an engine bay in japan (you know used with like 30,000 miles on it) because i dont feel like buying a rebuild kit and i would rather just have it already broke in and its already "ported" (oem ports are larger than oem FD ports). so that is what i also bought to replace this one with again. so i have no engine builder, i do all my own work and i have not opened up my blown block yet.

what did i do before blowing my motor? click on thread link above and read some of that, but basicly i changed my trigger 1 and rising and falling edge (see thread) but this was the first real time boosting since i installed my new exhaust manifold and new wastegate and connected the boost controller silinoid to the wastegate top. before adjusting my imput 1 it was backfiring like crazy (retarded?) and that was at like 57 and then when i timed it it came to like 40 and it ran way better......

(here is a log durring the run but my connections must not have been tight cause i dont get afr readings or load)

oh and it was the first run of the day and it was after changing plugs and durring mid second gear just after warming up......

road conditions were dry and verry slightly uphill and straight.

Ok I have had a good look at the whole thread. I will put my money on the boost controller not set up correctly with the hoses or the wastegate isn't working. Before you run your next engine make sure that the engine timing in the Wolf is the same as the timing light indicates. Run 0 degrees Trailing and leading (0 split)and check with a timing light. Now don't cheat check both Leading and trailing. Now add your split and check both again this will ensure that you have your timing correct and leading and trailing firing on the right plug hole. I would then get the wastegate and pump up your compressor to 15 psi and place it into the tube going to the diaphram and make sure as you squeeze the blower trigger the Wastegate opens if it does then make sure that you set your boost controller in safe mode(thats what I call it) that is with tube going from the manifold to the wastegate. Then cut it and place a T piece to your soleniod maybe via a small jet to limit over boost if the valve sticks open. The problem with this setup is that the Soleniod is on and open most of the time until boost comes on to the preset point as it reaches this point the valve closes opening the wastegate. (this is how feedback boost controller work) Now the problem is that the Wolf uses Pulse Width Modulation to simulate a Jet with a variable opening and if it sticks in the open position then it will OVERBOOST without a doubt. Now any setup can fail what you need to work out is which way will it fail and will it leave you with OVERBOOST or Low Boost. My preference is Low Boost or No boost as you will not have a collection of blowen engines...like most of us have :)

Cheers
Michael Smith
P.S. I would still run less advance above 2500 rpm

I T-H-I-N-K this is how i have it routed currently but i will check: i think its a 10# spring but i am going to check it (is it when the valve starts to open or when it is fully open?) well it works so when the turbo compressor hits wastegate spring pressure it will open the wastegate. then when the silinoid valve gets power and openes then it will add some boost to the other side of the diafram and work with equal pressure on both sides PLUS the spring pressure to keep it closed until disired boost. but i just thought of something, after desired boost is obtained and then the valve turnes off, it has no way of relieving the pressure in the line to the wastegate top and would overboost? what do you think? maybey i need a check valve or route it differently......... try to use my paint shop drawing to explain your answers...........

This is what I mean a fail safe boost control the maximum boost is set but the size of the Jet. Now this system has creep but you will not over boost. The second has No Creep but over boost is very possible. my 2C
Cheers
Michael Smith

ok i see what your saying.

what about my last picture below that should work also right? and what about the wolf boost controller fluttering the silinoid valve to limit the airflow through it? wouldnt that be like a restrictor?

on another note, anybody want to help me anwer some of my other questions previously posted?

thanks,
Jeremy

Hi Jeremy,
Sorry been out of touch, just came back to see how all was going... Sorry to read that your engine siezed, need to do an autopsy and find out why before you start running in circles and altering things... :wallbash:


A couple quick catch ups, (Thread - My Timing - post#36), the timing map... 1st, it does not even follow the basic timing curve strategies... as George pointed out there is no increase in advancement for increases in RPM, also, there is entirely too much advance under 1000 RPM in all loads, and the lower load ranges (everything below boost) need to have the max amount of advance (around 35-45* is the factory stock range and a good starting point, remember rotaries have weak torque so they need all the help they can get), starting at 0% to around 21% and then decrease as we move up in load to just before boost to were the 20* they have is good (20-25* at 100% for a N/A engine which is around the 50% for a turbo map, is a good safe area to be when starting out)... this ign map, as it is, would make your engine be an absolute dog at anything under 50% load and 3500 RPM, had your engine not ate itself (for reasons not yet known), you would have probably found gas milage down and city buses out pulling you from traffic lights... Go take a look at the map George posted (fuel/ignition map for wolf3dv4 post #4, - Alex Gozo F&G.wmf), this ign map is at least in the ball park considering the quality of gas he has to deal with...

Next, the Wolf Trigger1 adjustment, you stated (Thread - Zeroing the wolf - # 54), that when you set the map and tried setting the Trigger1, the best you came up with a 5* error in the split, then a couple posts later (Thread - Zeroing the wolf - # 58), you had to change your Input Trigger polarity from rising edge (the prefered setting according to the installation manual section 3.2), to falling edge, now the manual (wolf installation manual section 3.2.1), suggest that timing problems will occur if the sensor is not wired correctly (reversed), now I would have to believe that an incorrect polarity setting may also cause unexpected timing changes??? George and Michael both use rising edge...One last item here, in one post (Thread - Zeroing the wolf - # 58), you mentioned two folders with an ignition trigger polarity setting, I found one in Configuration-Sensor setup-Trigger1 but I have not found the second one...

Your post (Thread - Zeroing the wolf - # 57), troubles me about your understanding of how the coils are fired or if you are seeing some type of strange problems happening with your system... The trailing coils do not fire a wasted spark, only the leading does and both outputs of the leading coil fire at the same time... also, the wolf uses the CAS to determine when the pump is turned on, it is a safety issue such as in the event of an accident, the ecu shuts off the pump when the engine has stopped, so if you are triggering the CAS while you are working on it you may be tricking the ecu into powering up the pump... I hope this is what you are seeing and not some improper wiring issue...

Now the only other item I would question is your choice of a very low trigger voltage level, if your wiring is not shielded correctly (not at all or the shielding is grounded at both ends), it is quit possible that the ecu may be picking up false signals from other electrical wires in the harness... you stated this is the 6th engine that has failed, how many engine failures since you installed this harness for the wolf?

I hope I gave you some ideas to work with... more later if needed

Gregg

You mean good quality gas like 93 octane? so i would have to take this into consideration when tuning?



could the waste spark be getting in the way here and i am reading that instead of the right one (what degree does waste spark fire?)



I will double check the wiring polarity and change this durring swap..




yeah, you have to have the laptop connected to the ecu in "online" mode to see the second folder.




Dont be troubled, i am human and made a TYPO ha ha i meant to say L1 and NOT T1. my mistake, moderator change that for me! ha ha (Thread - Zeroing the wolf - #57)



hmm seems to me this should be the opposite, like if it got grounded (accident) or such then it should turn the fuel pump off..... but i guess it makes sense that if i ground the CAS that it makes the ecu think that the engine is running and the FP turns on, but then why doesent my engine flood with the injectors firing or my spark plugs fire? needs more imput from the other CAS?
hmm well can you check this on your car? or anybody? just use a screwdriver and touch it to your upper CAS and the timing wheel at the same time to make an electrical connection and see if it turns your fuel pump on....... thanks


i will shield the CAS wires when i do my swap, any suggestions? stainless braid?
also i will change the voltage level, any suggestions?
only blew one motor on the wolf.


Most definately, thank you soo much for helping me, i try to help everybody as much as possible knowing that i will need it some times, thank you
Jeremy

bump plus another question,: would I be able to run these plugs?
Denso Iridium IRE01-31 5720 (heat range 10) LEADING
Denso Iridium IRE01-34 5722 (heat range 11) TRAILING

P.S. I have already picked these plugs but the heat ranges is my only question, like should I get 9 leading and 10 trailing instead....... like:
Denso Iridium IRE01-27 5719 (heat range 9) LEADING
Denso Iridium IRE01-31 5720 (heat range 10) TRAILING

hp to be about 600 with single turbo.