Map Update
 

:cool: Hi all

This is my most recent map. Still road testing it.

Only question is i cannot get my idle O2 down from 9.7!!

I think its in the initial engine tempreture settings.... any clue guys? :confused:

With this set up i am running 12psi boost, 550/850 13B-REW Non Seq 3mm Seal and extended street port. ;)

Hi Signofinfinity,
You might have a leaking injector. Does this happen after it is warm? Also you may have a map point near idle that is way too rich. Because of the way these interpolate the data between points even if you change the fuel where you think is near to where it is running at Idle it may NOT be the point that actuclly causes the rich condition!
Regards
Michael Smith

OK I had a look at your map and the problem looks to be that your staging is too Sharp! You need to go 0%,0,0,5,10,20,45,90,100..... in the 1:1 mode........
Between 0 and 36% you don't really need your secondry injectors. What I think is happening is that because you have 2 injectors per rotor running that you adjustment is too course. When you change you pulse width shorter it is rich then it all of a sudden the next step it in injection timing it stalls and you can't see why, this is because it has gone from rich to lean in one adjustment. By using only your 550's you can get a finer adjustment!
Regards
MIchael Smith

ive never seen an engine that could idle at 9.7. id check your o2 sensor equipment.. if your car idles smooth, its idling smooth... prolly around 12-13:1

hi.

I checked the fuel injectors before installing them,but yes...it starts cold just fine....then when it warms up....o2 goes outa the winda!!

i removed the idle staging, (i thought i had remover the staging till 43 load band), and now i installed a heated o2 sensor and stoichiometer...

On boost i am on the rich side...but still rich on idle too. what kind of pulse lenght am i looking at round idle with 550s? 2.2 ish??

Just tried the car on track... this is the map used with staging...

idle is still rich though!!!!but its smooth. just with no load i can pick up to the redline without no hassle...as dump 7 psi boost with no load :rolleyes:

here goes...

this is based on a load factor of 15psi

runs quite good..

still a bit rich on the idle...but stochiometric on any load and rpm....

soon off to dyno...

any suggestion? Mike? NTY? that idle is killing me!!

Idle band at 21 at 880 rpm.

injectors are re removed, serviced, and the sealing washer from fuel rail and block replaced with VITAN Oring....

advanced idle timing....but i cant get my O2 down!!! :confused:

OK I run about 3.2 to 3.5 at idle and it runs at about 14.7-15.0:1 I would check that your trailing ignitors are working. Usually if your sensor gets cold you get a lean reading. You may also have too much overlap in your port timing if it has been changed and the injectors are firing raw fuel out of the exhaust port. Now this can some times happens too if you have the rotor1 and rotor2 injectors swapped on the primaries as injector timing can cause this problem.
Regards
Michael Smith

hmmm yes it figures, but i am getting 14.7ish ratio on any rpm and load....

in fact, accelerating the engine with no load on, i get lean to stociometrich. just at idle i get the high o2.

if the primary injectors have been swapped wont it effect the mid and high range rpms?

by any chance, i am not sure on the injector and ignition cycle timings...whats the difference between 1 and 0 and 255???

i left those as was, however the engine configuration is set at 28. that is a distributor ignition.. i am running multi coil!!! also, if i change to config 29 the engine wont fire and miss. so i left the injection timing and ignition as is...

can anyone explain the relation between 1,0 and 255 or any figure that goes in between??? sorry for sounding dumb...but this is my first run at tuning...certain things are a bit of a black veil.

Thanks mike for your inputs...always valuable points!!

does my ignition timing make sense from that map??

i mean within the idle range? i am running 21degs..

ps...my o2 sensor is a three wire heated probe...

I run about 18 to 20 degrees at Idle. The point I was getting at is that maybe your wiring is reversed to your primary injectors. The other problem I have seen is a failed fuel pressure regulator can cause rich idle conditions too! You should see your fuel pressure going up and down with load. If you regulator was faulty you may have already tuned around the problem. What is the reading with the heater off?
It should go lean. Maybe your heater is over heating the O2 sensor at idle?

Michael Smith

Thanks Micheal.

I verified the injector plugs to be set accordingly. I also put an FPR to manually set the pressure. I am using a wide band heated 02. Its on the lean side when off, stochiometric on engine warm up... stoichiometric on the rich side at WOT and rich on idle.

By any chance, could this have to do with it? I am running Multi coil on the FD, but my engine config is set at 28 not 29. Anytime I set 29 the car wont fire up. I reset my ignition timing and injector sequencing for a multi coil, but left the engine setup in the engine folder 28. does this map make sense??

sorry for my late response but i was stuck in OSLO.... :cool:

thanks

anyone?

OK I have had a look at the difference between mode 28 and 29...... You must have your wiring wrong to your ignition and it would be missing its trailing ignition pulse on one Rotor. I presume you have a multipoint series 4 or is it a series 5 ignition....option 28 only uses 2 outputs one for leading and one for trailing it is designed to be used on a electronic pickup with distributor that distributes the spark. Misssing the trailing or leading spark will cause your problem at idle. Can you give me some details on your Ignition system please....model, version, and setup.
Regards
Michael Smith

Thanks Michael,
Well I am running a plug and play series 6 wolf. The engine harness is the stock harness, with the rat's nest removed. I have the HKS twin Power amplifier. I managed to get a better idle, but still i lean out on the over all trim and still get a rich o2, then the engine dies from fuel starvation.
I went for a plug and play unit to avoid any wiring problem, but it seems that i didnt solve them!!!

i run the stock S6 ignitors and coils. the wiring is stock FD3S. The RX is an FD, so all the wiring is stock!!

Thanks a million...

ps the wiring is of an FD3S 1993 R1

Puzzeled George

O.K> I would still guess that there is a wiring problem/fault with your ignition not firing a rotor face this can be the only reason for the rich fuel mixture. I would guess that raw fuel is making its way to your turbo and slow burning down the exhaust. Do you have access to a timing light? Also do you have the factory computer? If so does it do the same???? my guess is that it will. I will have a look at circuit diagram for a series 6 engine. Do you have documentation on the Plugin, a manual??

Michael Smith

well, I only got the wire in Data. I was never sent any manuals qith the unit.
Strangely enough though, on cruise i go to stociometric and also lean. At WOT, i run at 15:1 with 9 to 10 psi of boost. I have very good pick up and response, and running some 12.5 sec on the quater. Idle is my main issue. mind you, some times i manage to idle between stochiometric and lean but the its way too lean fo a smooth clean rev up.yes, i checked my timing. dead on at 60deg. I also changed my ignitor,but to no avail.

When changinging engine type to multicoil, ie no 29, the triggering reverts to dual pulse.... and that mucks it up!!
could it be that with an extended street port i must keep her on a fast idle? say 1200? she idles perfectly at 750 but rich, stochiometrich by 1200....

sorrry for all the hassle mike, but, even my shop is at a dead lock here....and i am on my own again!!

regards hardware, injectors are serviced, manual FPR set at stock, sealing bungs for injectors replaced. 38-40 psi fuel pressure.fd ignitor,and coils...

only thing left i think are the plugs...i am running stong NGK...perhaps by going to a colder hotter plug??

thanks and sorry for the trouble...

george

OK George this is what is happening. When you running #28 you are only firing your Leading Coils. The leading is IGN2 and the Trailing IGN4 connects to nothing!

For #29 IGN2 connects to the leading Coils IGN1 connects to Trailing Rotor 1 and IGN3 connects to Trailing Rotor 2.

IGN1 = pin 32
IGN2 = pin 33
IGN3 = pin 34
IGN4 = pin 16
On a Standard Version 4 wolf. (Not a plugin)
You need to get a timing light to prove that each coil is firing. I will bet that the trailing coils don't work at all on #28
On #29 you need to get a friend to crank the engine with a test map set at 0 deg with a split of 10 you should be able to determine if the timing is correct. As for the crank angle sensor problem I would guess that wolf should be able to help you out with that. Nyt has mastered the standard series 5 sensor he may be able to help out if you can get the number of teeth on the sensor. I have no knowledge in that area but would like to know the solution myself.
Regards
Michael Smith

Thanks Micheal...

does it help that i configured IGN1 and 2 to 0 and IGN3 and 4 to 1

i tried to alter the ignition set upwith regards to the sequencing but didnt touch the number (28/29).... I set the 28 with the 29 ignition sequence so i can still run reference and sync....make sense?

i will do that test with the test light. but i am still puzzled why a plug in direct fit would miss wires!! i will check it out.

always valuable help michael!!!

I don't think that your connections are messed up just that the plugin thinks you have a modified CAS instead of the standard CAS what you need is the unit set to #29 and the correct data for the CAS and your rich idle will disappear and you will make more power as well. What we need is someone with a successful Series 6 Plugin Swap. In the mean time I will crack open a Series 6 Circuit diagram and have a peek!

Regards
Michael Smith

hmmm, i checked a couple of maps with #29, so i copied their config....
the last map i posted was with the copied data. but still left the engine set at #28.

i think that you must change the config too not just the sequence right?

Ok George I recon that I know whats going on here.
Here is quote from Wolf's support page.

"Gen 3 (Series 6 and 7 (Twin Turbo)) engines: We recommend replacing the original crank sensors with Hall Effect sensors. This reduces the chance of any crank sensor issues that may occur. You can use all of the original coils and igniters, although it is far better to have 2 single ended coils for the leading sparkplugs on high performance engines."

My guess is that at low speed ie idle the sensors don't put out enough voltage for the Wolf to detect. I know that it has 2 sensors like the series 4/5 but it is a genuine crank fitted Crank angle sensor and not a modified dizzy like the s4/5 use. Now looking at the manual and not having looked at one of these in the flesh my guess is that it has 1 outer tags and 12 inner bridges. (2 rotations = 2/24 like S4/5 CAs) Is this correct???? if is is then if you set it up like Nyt suggests( https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=377388 ) for the standard series 4/5 dizzy you should have a runner on #29 you may need to configure the voltage pickup too stepped so it starts at very low and works its way up. This will ensure good spark.

Hall effect sensors give a very sharp clean output compaired to coil pickups maybe Wolf has a standard replacement for the series 6/7. Beware Hall sensors will require a 12 or 5 volt supply to go to the CAS.

I think the output voltage is the bad idle problems causing irregular timing signals and missed sparks. As the engine speed rises the output will increase removing the problem. The next question is I bet that the computer on #28 is using the reference pulse on the outside only this too may cause some stranger problems but seeeing that the leading coil fires on 1 and 2 at the same time it will run on them alone!
Regards
Michael Smith


What do you recon???????

if hes having trigger issues, hell see errors incrementing. is this the case?

Hi Nyt , George is having trouble with a unadjustable rich mixture at idle which indicates that the trailing plugs are not working. Now instead of the Wolf being on #29 it is set to #28 which will only fire the leading coils. Thats why at Idle he is having a rich indication becasue raw fuel is making it into the exhaust. Now the reason it is set to #28 is that it won't run on#29 and the reason for that is that the CAS setup by default to the modifed CAS and to make it run you require the same setup you described under Standard CAS setup for series 4/5. Also at idle the S6/7 pickups may generate a erratic signal as far as the Wolf is concerned.

What is required is to set the Wolf to #29 and then follow your CAS setup thread and George should have a working ignition system with leading and trailing ignition with a AFR of 14.7 instead of 9.7 like he has now!

Regards
Michael Smith

Hi Nyt , George is having trouble with a unadjustable rich mixture at idle which indicates that the trailing plugs are not working. Now instead of the Wolf being on #29 it is set to #28 which will only fire the leading coils. Thats why at Idle he is having a rich indication becasue raw fuel is making it into the exhaust. Now the reason it is set to #28 is that it won't run on#29 and the reason for that is that the CAS setup by default to the modifed CAS and to make it run you require the same setup you described under Standard CAS setup for series 4/5. Also at idle the S6/7 pickups may generate a erratic signal as far as the Wolf is concerned.

What is required is to set the Wolf to #29 and then follow your CAS setup thread and George should have a working ignition system with leading and trailing ignition with a AFR of 14.7 instead of 9.7 like he has now!

Regards
Michael Smith

wow double posts...

Hi NTY long time no see, hope you are fine.

Well Michael, here goes....I did check on that. Actually on the plug and play version there is a board to modify the reluctor out put. wolf suppy the halls for the wire in versions. in fact i was told NOT to use them with the plug and play

Very true!

Well i followed NTY to the letter. I hooked up with the ECU on line. However the sync offset would stay only at 5. had i to place it at 0 then the car would foul up an go crazy missing and uneven. put in a five...and ho and behold.

weird thing is this. when the engine is warm to operating temp, i managed to get a 14.7 ratio, after say 5 minutes idle the ratio starts creeping up and re settles at 9.7. Now i wonder why thats happeneing. I turn her off....re start and same thing....14.7 bang on and slowly creeps up.

I received from chris too of wolf usa. he kindly said that the engine config does not matter if you input the sequence manually....so that figures.

could it have anything to do with just a bad fuel and ignition delivery from the map??? any clues? this is the map am using, with overall trim set at -10 though to get a lean to stochiometrich idle, howeve a lean rough pick up

nope.....no errors what so ever under any driving conditions!!!
triggering voltage is very low.
Vlow - Low at 15rpm
Low-Med at 600rpm
med to high at 2200rpm...

i got a very good pick up and response.... i run stoiciometric to lean on cruise..12.7 under boost at wot and rich that you cry at idle...

weird ay? oh and my configuration is set like a #29 engine type.
with ignition 4 set at 0 to give a leading signal!

thanks all for the input, maybe we can figure this out!!

George what plugs are you running? Maybe they are too cold, and start to foul at idle speeds. I had a set of plugs that casued me heaps of grief they had been working well when I started to rebuild my engine. After startup of the rebuilt engine they gave me heaps of flooding problems the plugs where stuffed just from sitting.

Michael Smith
p.s. looks like we are getting closer!!!

Denso Iridium 27 and 31s.

I changed from NGK 7 snd 9s and it got better.... i must work on the fuel map again....

i think thats my weak area.

and good hints? for setting up the low end fuel map? i am keeping the fuel i got for the boosted areas above 38 load....the rest i gotta rework.
:mad:

Your plugs are OK for daily driving I would go one heat range colder if you where going to give it a bit of stick. When I tune my car I always tune from rich to lean and I always try to get a reading on a map load point. I do this by using top gear (not overdrive) and load the engine to the required load and let it rev out taking note of one particular rpm say 3500 rpm if it is rich I drop the pulse width by 0.05 ms for that point. I next do 3000rpm and also take note of 3500 as it passes through. Now if you are happy with the mixture at these 2 points I then scale evenly between these points this is best done with the software only displaying 500 rpm points as it interpolates between the 2 readings automatically. I always prefer running a bit rich.
Michael Smith

sounds like a plan. But first it dawned on me that i may be using the wrong fuel ..DOH
Well to ain some octane points i was using LRP (lead replacement petrol). I spilled some the other day, and two days later there is still a stain on the road!!
I passed my smog and emmision using unleaded 91 octane, but thats clean, it just evaporates and leaves no residue. does it make sense to leave the 'dirty'93 octane fuel and fill up with 91 octane unleaded which 'seems' to be cleaner? I still premix fuel like 15ml with every 10 liters of fuel. i use BP smokeless Powerstroke 2T for lube in the engine....

before touching my map am gonna try the fuel.....you agree??

I use premium unleaded it cost about 5 cents a litre more but gives more power and leaves no residue.
Michael Smith

hehe...we only get LRP, Green (unleaded) or disel!!!

we cant be choosy..93 oct for the LRP and 91 for the green.....

i gotta find some time though to try it out!!

ok....so this is the map with my new ignition table, and unleaded fuel....and a leaner fule map!!

still with a rich idle!!! its driving me mad!!!!trail spark is working and confirmed with a timing light!!!

any clue what can be wrong? :confused:

...and i leaned out by some 10% more!!!!same as before rich idle, stochio to lean on cruise, stocio rich under boost....

beats me !!!

i think dyno tune will have to do it from here on!! any ideas prior that?? :eek:

George have a look at this map. I modified the ignition timing, trailing split, and moved the idle settings from Stepper to PWM it looks like your fuel may be lean but I didn't touch it. I run around 3.38ms

Regards
Michael Smith

thanks Michael. I will have it set up.... well, it may seem lean but that's whats seem to work. when i richened up, the car smoked black really bad!!
the stepper setting was as a last resort...hehe, then i read your post... i will advise.

Make sense with a higher split...

how come you retarded on the idle ignition... i didnt figure that out

The reason for less advance is to ignite the fuel while it is compressed more enabling a better burn. You will also notice that at idle rpm the advance is less than those around it. This is because as you load the engine, say as it stalls, it moves up the load curve the timing is more advances this causes the engine to lift the engine revs and put it back on the idle load point. It is sort on like making a dip in a floor and throwing a marble on it....it always goes to the same point. The split will help cleanup.

Let me know how it goes!

Michael Smith

Corrected. Six of them! :D

sorry for my late response... was out of the country for work...
well i tried the map michael.its much better thank you, but the rich ness is still there... i increased my overall trim, then the engine starts hunting for the rpm. having an extended street port i think it would hunt a bit, but i am not yet sure....the idle has a bit of a stutter with the 20 trailing split, but drivability is quite ok.

thanks for the hints....

i had in mind to run closed loop to ease the emission issues....

I will be using a Bosch LSH24 for my o2 sensor...or an NTK LP18...any hints?

George drop the split down a little to 16 and see how it goes. Maybe the extend porting is causing the rich idle although mind is a very large extend port and it runs nice!
Michael Smith

ok.....back to basics....i think i am asking too much from the engine...

with an extended street port what idle value should i look at?? i mean, the engine runs nicely at 1100rpm stoichiometric.

could it be that i am asking too much at 890???

what idle speed would you recomend on an extended steet port...

i starty with that and reduce the split

thanks Michael

I run 900 rpm without too much trouble but I run standard exhaust ports with large extend port inlet to spool my turbo more quickly. If you have large exhaust ports you will have to idle at 1100 -1300rpm ... at 980 does it hunt up and down? If it does adjust the use the screw on the throttle body to wind up the the RPM to 1100 with the PWM set to 0 and initial centre set to zero! This will be your base idle. Then follow my adjustment instructions.

Michael Smith

FD Trigger 1 Timing
 

ok....so you folks with an FD.

Trigger1 one senser setup was mucked up!!

I am enclosing to maps. The zeroed map is my actual map with no ignition and fuel. I used this to check the trig 1 timing.

My previous trigger settup was set 48.5deg. Well, NTY kindly pointed out the his Haltech FD is running 65. That's one hell of a difference. I used my timing light, and got TDC at 0Deg to be set at trig 1 of 68.9deg.

Also, i set the trailing split to zero, checked the timing and it was bang on TDC.

So, my emmisions were probably due to too much ignition retard. I was running 20deg less on the trigger input. The engine purs now.

The other is the map which michael kindly corrected, with some add ons.

FD owners or REW owners with fixed reluctors....check your trigger1 degrees!! I didnt see one map from an fd with 65-70 deg on trig1.

Will post further....but summer season is here and flights are on the increase....

later.

George :bigthumb:

as far as i know, the FD doesnt have a mark for TDC. The mark is at -5.

you might have your timing 5 degrees off =]

hmmmmmm....i aligned with the mark!!
so should i set up my map to -5 all through, and then align the mark???
then it not i might..but i have aligned 5 deg off!!!!

will get back to you on this....

thanks for the insight

yes, the mark is for -5 =] i was wondering why it was so high. generally i dont see them more than a degree off in either direction.

try 64 for your setting and align at -5

64? why not 74?? I at 0 deg i am aligned with the -5 mark, then my 0 in reality is -5. wouldnt i have to move the trig 1 five degrees forward to meet that difference and zero the timing.....

doh....yeh i see the reasoning.... the mark is off not the wheel so i am actually advance....
stupid question...

actually i was sure it had to come down...but my shop figured it had to go up...so hehe he convinced me..

just confirmed to him 64 it must be.
Thanks NTY....

so, this is the map with 0 timing....ie, -5 degs ignition.

The notch and the needle from the housing should be aligned....at say 64-67 degrees (depending on the individual car)

make sense nyt?

George

FD from the factory throws spark at -5 at idle. thats how timing is checked (they never really set it since the CAS doesnt move)