Team503

The twin turbo kits are available from Incon (www.inconturbo.com), whose website is available.

The pricing is as follows (sourced from: www.forcedinduction.com ) Please note, however, that the prices do not include installation.

Updated: 4-26-00

Kit Manufacture: Incon Systems
Vehicle: Chevrolet Camaro, Pontiac Firebird, Pontiac Trans Am
Type Of Power Adder: Intercooled Twin Turbo kit

NEW PICTURES ADDED!! CLICK HERE TO SEE THE PROTOTYPE CAR, Pictures taken by Jason (Fast Orange) ( http://www.forcedinduction.com/ls1pics.htm )


The venture between Incon and its consumers for the LS1 kits has gone quite well. Its It has actually gone well enough that Incon is going to produce 3 stages of the LS1 kit.
These kits are outlined below:

Stage 1 Kit
(450rw) $4500 Stage 2 Kit*
(550rw) $5500 Stage 3 Kit*
(700rw) $7000
* Twin BB Turbos
* Cast headers and dumps
* Twin intercoolers
* Twin cold air intakes
* Custom molded silicon ducting
* Braided Teflon fluid lines
* Aerospace hardware.
* Intank Fuel Pump
* Y-pipe
* Fuel Regulator
* Stage 1 Plus:
* Engine Managment Unit
* Fuel Metering Alterations


* Stage 2 Plus:
* Fuel Injectors
* Fuel Rails
* Fuel Plumbing
* Intake Manifold


*REMEMBER THESE KITS ONLY INCLUDE THE FUEL EQUIPMENT NECESSARY FOR
THIS POWER LEVEL!! Hard parts in your longblock are not included!

jimlab

Nah, no one cares.

That's just the "test" motor, by the way...

50tooslow

Sounds like someone was tring to say that a rotary is inefficient. That is about the biggest bunch of BULLSHIT I have ever heard. They are so inefficient that you can exract just as much horsepower out of a 1.3 liter as you can a 5.7. And no matter what you say yes you can. I don't see many people running 7.52 in the quarter on a 5.7 liter small block, yes it can be done, but these engines are extreamly expensive $25,000-$50,000 range and very unreliable. You have to resleve every cylinder new pistons, rings, rods, bearings, valve springs, and etc. Basically every moving part but the crank. Now I'm sure a rotary this radical needs new seals after a run like this but that is quite abit less than the whole motor. Nevertheless my point is rotaries are very efficient at extracting power per liter.:p

SPOautos

Jim I have a question, you seem to be a V8 expert so I'm sure if anyone around here can answer this it will be you.

Realistically how much power can be had from a BONE STOCK daily driven z28 motor with one of these forced induction kits like TT, SC, or NOS.......I'm talking factory pistons, heads, cam, lifters, rings, ect ect ect. The kits say "X" amount of power is capable from the kit but thats doesnt mean you can reliabaly do it with a Stock motor.

If the motor is capable of running 600rwhp stock then why doesnt everyone just bolt on a 300hp shot of NOS????

I know when I visit the LS1.com forum there are NOT very many people running and talking about these kits and when they do it seems as thought they are having probs with the kits. I've noticed on the board that the LT1's seem to be doing better with forced induction than the LS1.....dont have a clue as to why though.

Anyway, I thought maybe you could shine some light on this for me. I live in the middle of V8 land and its always good to know about the other team

Later,

jimlab

Now imagine how efficient they'd be if the combustion process finished inside the engine and not in the exhaust.

By the way, there are engines smaller than 5.7 liters that are in the 6s, let alone 7s... check out an issue of Fast Fords & Mustangs sometime.

jimlab

Realistically, on a bone stock Z-28/Firebird LS1, the most nitrous you should reasonably use would be around 100-150 hp. That goes for almost any stock internal engine. More than that and you put an excessive strain on the bushings. All-out nitrous motors are often built with aluminum rods to absorb some of the "hit". You can run more stock, but you run the very real risk of windowing your block. Nitrous Warehouse has several kits for these cars, but will probably recommend 150 horsepower as a maximum. The owner's LT5 ZR-1 got a 225 horsepower shot, but the LT5 is a stouter motor (and a completely different design than the LT1 or LS1) and made 405 horsepower to begin with.

For a supercharger kit, the most you can reasonably get away with on a stock motor is about 8 psi, give or take. If the heads were changed, you could shift static compression lower and run more boost, but for a stock engine, 6-8 psi is about it, and 6 psi is probably closer to what most base supercharger kits run. Realistically, you're looking at about a 100-150 horsepower gain, possibly. Vortech states a 30-50% increase, which is about right. Just a cam swap would make a big difference in any of these motors.

For a turbo kit, boost is still in the 6-10 psi range limit on stock internals, but you can get more horsepower out of the engine because the parasitic losses of the supercharger setup aren't a limitation. It is possible to get a 175+ horsepower gain from a stock block, I'd assume, since the Turbo Technology kit makes about 480 horsepower at the wheels, and many stock LS1 Z-28s are putting down 300-305 RWHP stock. The LT1 kits will make less power, because the LS1 intake and heads are much better flowing designs when stock.

There are LT1 and LS1 cars making more than 600 RWHP, but I'd put money on the fact that the bottom end has been rebuilt, even if displacement wasn't changed much (0.030" overbore to 355 cid, for example), and that some fairly serious porting has been done to their heads.

dclin

iTrader: (4)

Some of you guys need to back off a little bit. Jim's been into rotories a long time, and is well known in the rotary community.

I only have an inkling of what he's done, as that I'm relatively new myself - but if you dig deep you'll find Jim popping up many years back, See Steve Cirian's web site for contributions that Jim's made.

While some of us here wish we knew how to change oil, Jim has done it all when it comes to rotories. I know he's rebuilt his own engines (heck, his WHOLE car) and you really need to see some of his work. His attention to detail is apparent.

I know he made a calculated decision to do the swap (and probably knew he was going to get heckled by some), and given his back ground with rotaries - I respect that. Not as if he's some redneck that happens onto a FD oneday, and says, "huhhuh, that thare needs uh V8!"

As another pointed out, he's after something we all are envious of whether we care to admit it or not - full torque (and plenty of it)not too far off of idle. I mean the kind of torque that will obliterate whatever poor tire that may be mounted to the rear wheels. His choice in achieving this maybe open to debate, but if anybody is going to invest the time and research and do it RIGHT - it's going to be Jim.

Would I do a V8 swap? No. The uniqueness of the rotary engine is big part of the ownership for me, and I'm willing to put up with everything that rotary ownership entails. I personnally will never push the limits of my engine, so my choice is right for me. I hold out to the belief that one day I will be able to afford a 3 rotor conversion (that is ridiculously priced by the few that do them, but thats another story....).

For those that push the limits (and beyond) like Jim, they have to make a decision that is correct for them. Let's respect that.

Group hug!

Icemark

What would you call it? You couldn't call it an RX anymore.

LT7?

Chevza?

Something unpostable?

I would and do call it lost faith.

Flybye

Get a better muffler, and I promise you it wont sound like an outboard motor....

SPOautos

Thanks Jim, I knew you would shoot straight with me. I've been under the impression for quite some time that 100-150rwhp is about the most you can reliabaly squeeze out of the engine. Thats why I debated about the 600rwhp claims for $3500!!!!!

On a side note I saw a SS at the track that was running high 10's NA!!!!! It had a stroker kit that pushed it up to a 427 or something outrageous like that......not the normal 383kit. I cant imagine it would be very reliable but it sure did hauled some *** and sounded mean as hell!!!!!!!! Seems like he told me there was about 15K invested in the car. Custome machining work done on the heads, block, and seems like something else as well.....I'm sure he had a fat machine shop bill as your no doubt familiar with since you have those beautiful heads!!!!!!


Later,

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

In the old days cars with swapped engines were called hot rods.

I like "HOTROD7". Makes a nice license plate to me.

KZ1

v8 is FD, dumbest bloody thing I haev ever heard. rotary is much more reliable and weighs infinitely less. You could never get a V8 FD to perform well in handling, or as good as FD. Poeple who stick them in have no appreciation for what makes an FD a great car. stick a v8 in it and it becomes no better than some H framed camaro sporting a mullet.

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

I think JIMLAB's will be infinitely better than any Camaro.

50tooslow

Jim I am not trying to put you down for what you are doing. I was just saying that for a rotary to be capable of the power per liter it must be a fairly efficient engine.

Also I am a very big fan of the small block chevy engine. It is one of the greatest engineered motors. And the changes that GM has made over time have only made it that much better. This basic design has powered many race cars for around 20 years. The introduction of the SB2 into NASCAR has made a great engine even better. Then the engineering going into the LS1. A new generation of well engineered engines.

I would never put down either of these engines or any one who puts either engine in whatever the hell they want to. I suppose some of the peoples views on this forum are similar to what the Ford guys thought when people put small blocks in old hot rod Fords.

To be perfectly Honest I have a small block chevy stroked out to a 383 in my jeep. That @#%$ing thing will almost break your freeking neck. I have never run it against my FD but I would bet it would beat the FD. But I would never even try to take it out side of town. Hell a couple of passes down the main drag and there went $10 in gas.
Well I didn't want you to think that I thought bad of you. (If you even cared?)

jimlab

You're right, it's not really an RX-7 any longer. I have Efini badges front and rear, but no other exterior markings. The Mazda is long gone from my front brake calipers (polished) and even those will be gone once my AP brake kit shows up. My door sill plates are being flattened and repolished, and the RX-7 symbol is gone. My floor mats have no insignia (sweet aftermarket mats from Mazdatrix, now no longer available). I have an Efini steering wheel, so I don't even have a Mazda emblem on the air bag cover (or the air bag). There is nothing on my car, short of the VIN number, that gives it away as an RX-7... and that's just the way I wanted it. Even before I chose to put a V8 in it.

I was never proud of having paid $40,000+ (after tax and license) for a Mazda. Sure, it was one of the best (if not the best) Japanese sports cars, but the Mazda name is so tarnished that everytime someone found out what it actually was (after making several flattering but incorrect guesses) they looked like I **** on their shoes... oh, it's a Mazda. That's right, it's a Mazda. One of the most reviled names in automotive history from a resale point of view, in my opinion. The Supra guys claim "Lexus-like" build quality... what do we claim? We rebadge the thing so no one will know (as if they did in the first place) what it really is. Tell me, honestly, and look me in the eye, that you don't LIKE having someone mistaking your RX-7 for something more expensive, and arguably with more prestige... riiiight.

Some of you bought into the RX-7 history. I didn't. I could care less about the heritage of the car (unless a long heritage means a large support base and aftermarket, something we don't have... but the LT1 sure as hell does) or how many Le Mans wins their racing team has. What I want is something fast on the street, and no number of Le Mans victories is going to help me kick the *** of the guy in the other lane unless I pump up what Mazda delivered from the factory. Because like it or not, the car wasn't even the king of horsepower in its day... and its day is over. My '95 is 7 years old, although it still has 13,000 miles on the odometer. The first of the 93s to hit the States are now 9+ years old. Without a lot of modification, the car is not a contender for most of the newer sports cars, even those that are (in new form) cheaper than the RX-7 when it was new.

I didn't lose faith, I never had it to begin with. All I wanted was something fast. I made it faster. It broke. Repeatedly. And the next step, for the power I wanted, and with some margin of reliability, was to spend an egregious amount of money on a 20B, which shares all the same weaknesses (at least I see them that way... some of you seem to think they're bonuses) of its little brother. You may not have to push the engine as hard to make more horsepower, but it still has all the failings of the 2-rotor version, which doesn't seem like a logical "upgrade" to me. Still, I was more determined to go down that path than a lot of you that just TALK about 20B upgrades... even going so far as buying a 20B, tearing it down, preparing to have it rebuilt, and then stumbling on the dillema of giving money to Pettit (I've got a thing about people who rebrand other's products and then mark them up 150%, not to mention a negative experience with them very early in my RX-7 ownership) for a subframe, or finding another source. PFS' solution seems to be cutting the firewall, something even I won't do to my car. SR Motorsports promised a cheaper subframe that didn't have the steering rack problems... for whatever reason (water under the bridge), they didn't deliver, and wasted 3 months of my time in the process. So I sold the 20B. I didn't lose faith, it was just a matter of practicality, and what I was willing to do to put one in the car. Paying $2,100 to Pettit for a subframe for the privilege of putting a 20B in the car apparently wasn't one of the things that I was willing to do.

I even looked into converting it to a dry sump oil pan. Adding $3,500+ on to the already steep cost of the conversion wasn't practical. And yet it wasn't even the cost that was an issue, it was the availability of parts, and the lack of close sources for some of the custom things that would have to be made to complete the installation. I don't have a KD Rotary or M2 Performance right next door. I have Hayes Rotary, and I wouldn't even trust them with a stock FD.

So I shelved the "project" for awhile longer. And came across an article in Vette magazine about a 409 cid LT1 that TPIS built that made ungodly power. So I started researching the LT1 (late model, '92-'96) aftermarket, and found that they have a huge support base, huge source of aftermarket parts at reasonable prices (I've since thrown the budget out the window, though and once again, I'm going beyond what even they've done) and since drag racing is and has always been my only vice, with the occasional street race thrown in, torque is KING. The more cubic inches the better, and I wanted to reduce weight and simplify the system at the same time, so really my only limitation was that the engine had to make as much power as possible naturally aspirated, while still duplicating, to some degree, the nature of the rotary power plant (to attempt to preserve the spindly rear suspension, even though the differential and axles will have to be upgraded), and the rotary redline. I added another gear while I was at it. Bulletproof wherever possible. Reduce weight wherever possible. My engine is probably 50 lbs. lighter than your average LT1, possibly more. My car was already 100+ lbs. lighter than your average RX-7, due to several weight elimination mods and "sacrifices" that I had already made.

So if you can improve the reliability of the power train, add a gear, give the car true 200+ mph capability, increase horsepower 2 fold and torque almost 3 fold, and have more of it at lower rpm, increase fuel economy, maintain weight balance and keep the reduced curb weight of the car, that's where my faith lies... being the fastest damn thing on the street, regardless of engine manufacturer. And with a 4:1 power to weight ratio, there's a pretty good chance that there isn't anything else around even close. I kept the good looks of the car, and I've gone to great lengths not to junk it up, modify anything including the hood, or to change the interior. In fact, except for a "6" on the gear shift, and a 240mph speedometer, and the black roll cage that was blended in and integrated with the stock interior, there's not much difference from a factory RX-7. But I have, for MY purposes, vastly improved on what I originally bought.

It's not for everyone, and I have never tried to push anyone to do the same. If the RX-7 weren't so horribly impractical, even as a second car, I'd probably own two, one rotary, one V8. I've bashed some of the things that I see as shortcomings with the rotary engine and RX-7 in general, but don't mistake that as bashing from a "V8 lover". I'd have the same complaints if rotaries were all I lived and breathed. However, this is a valid alternative to people who (for whatever reason) are tired of dealing with the potential headaches of rotary ownership, love the car, but don't want the hassle, and don't have the checkbook to keep replacing motors. Because good maintenance and careful monitoring aren't even enough to keep a turbocharged rotary alive 100% of the time. Even someone with a fully tuned (Mandeville) Motec car at STOCK boost, lost an engine, despite 3mm ceramic apex seals. (which believe it or not, only give you a few more pings than the regular seals... the money is better spent on fuel management, in my opinion) If it can happen to them, it can happen to anyone. If it can happen to a bone stock car too, it can happen to anyone. The number of posts I've seen in the last four years on the RX-7 mailing list and now on the RX-7 Forum on motor loss and warranty replacement should give even those who seem to think the rotary is perfect cause for just a little doubt...

Do what you want with your car, after all it is your car. But don't badger me (or other V8 conversion owners) with your ignorant comments about weight or balance, or about V8s being "****", or "if you had to go V8, why not at least use a BMW/Lotus/Whatever V8". If you think that's the right answer, then you know where to start on your own car. But while your opinions are your own, they're not worth much to someone who has already gone through or has decided to go through the conversion. They've had enough, and it's highly unlikely that anything you can say is going to change their minds. Just like it's highly unlikely that anything I say is going to change yours about keeping your rotary... the difference is, I'm not trying to talk you into eliminating your rotary motor. I'm paving the path for people who (for whatever reason) want to keep the car, but lose the problems. And believe it or not, there are people who want to keep the car for its styling, yet don't care what's under the hood.

So what are you afraid of? That everyone will convert to Chevrolet V8 power? Guess that'd make your rotary-powered FD worth all that much more, being the highly modified and high mileage collector's item that it is, right?

jimlab

There's a college guy (read: low budget), who is in the mid/low 10s, NA, with an 396 cid LT1-powered Z-28... Jordon Musser.

http://velocityracing.com/camaro/

There's also a 4th gen. Corvette (C4) owner who's car is named "Hoover" (web site is apparently down last time I checked), who is well in the 10s on a naturally aspirated 401 cid LT1.

And believe it or not, there have now been naturally aspirated LS1 cars in the 9s. With 427 cid TRUCK (iron block) LS1s...

But for 10 second performance from any car, you can expect to pay a bundle, and for most cars you can expect that will include having the engine opened up. Chevy and Ford don't overbuild engines like (apparently) Toyota did with the Supra. It's not surprising that you'd have to replace internal parts, because like with the RX-7 (fuel system, especially), they were only built to make a specific amount of power for a specific amount (warranty limit, obviously) of time. There's no money to be made by overbuilding the engines, when 99% of the people who buy the cars won't ever use the increased strength (or care).

That was in response to people who say "but you have to open up the V8 motor to make X horsepower". Well, duh! Like they build each Camaro to handle 600 RWHP? Riiight. And still maintain the $25k price tag? That'd be a bargain and a half.

jimlab

I was just pointing out that the rotary, as efficient as it is for its size, could be more efficient yet.

jimlab

Yet another expert on the subject... *sigh*

So, expert, you're telling me that if weight is kept even below an FD base model, and 50/50 weight balance is maintained (which only makes the car corner neutrally, and doesn't necessarily make it corner better than a car without "perfect" weight balance, which can be compensated for by corner balancing the car...) that you're destroying "what makes an FD a great car"?

OK, thanks for playing. Come back when you've got an arguement based on actual facts.

poormanferrari

HOT DAMN JIM, your day job must involve alot of writing...

Although my 2nd motor has been reliable for the last 37K, even at 12 psi, PFC, DP, PFScatback, M2large, I'm looking for more torque and better fuel economy in a couple of year. [It'll be like another 5 because I have a spare motor (10K on it) that I bought 5 years ago when my first motor blew]

Now, my question to you Jim is, can you get the LS1 or LT1 to fire like two four cylinder engines ? If you can, this would be the perfect motor as it would scream like 3/4 F355 instead of that uneven firing order of a GM V-8.

You should document the whole project and put it on-line.

Hey, it has been more than two months for the bushings ... any progress?

mmaragos

Kick butt. No doubt about it. I can't wait to hear more about the finished product.

No matter what the narrow-minded asses might say, you have done no more wrong than the guys that modify the exteriors of their FDs (nothing wrong with that either).

Now I understand why you don't have time to build me any suspension bushings!

Icemark

jimlab:

Sorry that in your area no one repects the RX... or Mazda. It has always been the opposite for me living both in Southern CA and now Northern CA.

And RX7s are becoming a very exclusive car.

All the people I meet are wondered and amazed by the RX7. The FC and FDs are still some of the best looking cars out there, (if they don't get too riced with Supra spoilers and wings and crap).

But I can understand your point...Your conversion... its not for me... If I wanted a V8 I would have bought a vette and lived with the vette ******* teasing. The style of the current vette does have RX7 inspired lines. Maybe it would be easier just to get the vette?

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

Yes, easier, but not rare. I like rare. V8 in an FD is really rare.
I love my brother's FC V8. An FD V8 is even better to me. I'm sticking with the rotary for now. We'll see what happens. Hope it lasts for me. I'm spending enough $$ on it.

Ken

petrosc

Hey Jimlab,


What kind of 1/4 mile do you think you will be able to run with that V8? What kind of HP and torque? Is that with or without bolt-ons?

And if you make bushings, I may be interested. Is there a thread on the board I should look at?




Petros

50tooslow

Well I'm not sure if this answers your question but, GM changed from their 18436572 firing order some time ago. They now use a sequencial fire. And Jim I will be interested to hear how everything works out. Also How in the hell did you get the LT1 to fit. Did you have to modify the subframe to get it to fit

jimlab

Yeah, I should.

Actually, it's been about a month and a half, since the last of the payments straggled in at mid-July, after the cut off of July 6th. When you're dealing with hundreds of pounds of Nylon, you need to know how many people are actually in, so the Nylon wasn't purchased until I had a solid count. It's not returnable.

About a month and a half, and they're making over 4,500 individual parts of Nylon and stainless steel. Estimate is for end of month to mid-October, which beats the last guys hands down, if they can deliver. Last run was for 1/3 as many bushings and took over twice as long...

I have good faith that we'll be seeing them around the middle of October as promised.