jagjack

Hey mark57,
The link for the jag conversions is
Jag-lovers.org

Jack

thetech

iTrader: (1)

Also regarding weight, taken from Bill Hagans successful LT1 conversion:

Good news on the weight front. They had a digital scale at the track and I am happy to report that the total weight was 3000 lb on the nose. That was with 100lb ballast in the tire well. However....it turns out that I was rear heavy to the tune of 50 lbs!! Therefore, I dropped some ballast and the final total weight of my car with half a tank of gas is 2950 lbs!

So basically, put a subwoofer in the back and you still have perfect 50/50 weight distribution (which works out perfectly for me, seeing as I do have a top end sound system)

Also seeing as I live in California, you have a 320hp NA car which is fully emissions compliant: OBD-II, cat converter and all. Right now I fail emissions to get to that power using a turbo (downpipe failure of visiblity test).

LT1-7

Just take a look at the incon twin turbo system for the LT1's. There basic kit is $4500 and comes with twin ball bearing turbos, twin intercoolers, exhaust manifolds, intercooling pipes, fuel upgrades. It's all in the kit for $4500 and that's ballbearing turbos. They rated that kit to put out 450rwhp. $5000 and you can get the 550rwhp. $6500 and it goes up to 700rwhp. I forgot the name of the other company that made the cheaper kits but do you think it's that far fetched if you can get a ball bearing twin turbo kit for that cheap?

BTW, paxton make a SC kit for the LT1's that uses only 6.5# to run in the 10's. This is what my friend read to me one day so I don't know how accurate it is.

jimlab

Start with Turbo Technology in Tacoma, WA. The complete kit starts at $4,000...

http://www.turbotechnologyinc.com/ls1.htm

jimlab

Keep in mind that Bill did not eliminate ANY weight whatsoever on his car. He kept the power steering, air conditioning, all the catalytic converters, and the stock cast iron exhaust manifolds that his LT1 came with, not to mention all the weight of the stock car.

Mine will be considerably lighter.

clearthinker

I avoided this thread as long as I could...

Obviously a debateable subject it goes much further than "hey dude, you own the car so do what you want with it". When you make that conversion then maybe you should carry your sorry lame *** piston sucking self to the LT1 forum. You really won't be able to add much to this forum...would you?? I obviously side on keep the soul of the FD a rotary. But hey I understand costs can be difficult. Maybe a pinto or neon would better suit you. I'm sure there are alot of porsche guys doing the LT1 conversion. Who the hell needs that cheap as* german engineered engine?

Okay, so I'm ranting and foaming at the mouth. Maybe in the wake of all the bullshit America has put up with over this last week I really just want to vent. Maybe I just want something to stay the same. Maybe I just want to go back to what we had....ooshit...off the subject but really it does touch on the subject of art and its interpretation. Would you want U2 to play Barry Manolow songs? Would you really want your FD to not "be" an FD?? I think its okay for you to do the conversion but label it as such. Rip off all the mazda logos, FD logos, and all references to rotary power. Hell, change the color to a non descript color so no one in their right mind would mistake it for an FD. Ohh, yea...and don't let the door hit you on the *** on your way out!


2cents with a shot of vengence

jimlab

Should have avoided it awhile longer... you could have maintained the illusion that you were intelligent for that much longer...

jimlab

For those interested in my progress, after over two months of waiting, my one-off Air Flow Research cylinder head castings have been delivered and are ready for porting. They've had only basic machining done but already flow more than any of AFR's available fully ported standard LT1 heads.

Heads as delivered, prior to baseline testing on the flow bench...



Closer view of the intake ports...



D-shaped exhaust ports, set up for 2" primary tube equal length headers...



And last, but not least, the combustion chambers and 2.10" intake and 1.60" exhaust valve seats...



Finally some visible progress...

Tim McCreary

Hmmm Jim,

That custom made one-of-a-kind head looks much cheaper than the stock rebuild rotary engine. How much are they selling for. About $75-100?

Let's get back to reality again with the original question posted being COST, YES COST!!!!

And I quote: "Well the price of upkeeping a rotary engine is way much more than I want to keep paying through the years. I am considering a Chevy v8 in there or some other sorts. Anyone done this? How much cost was associated with this? "

Debate all you want about the power/performance/balance/bullshit/bullshit/bullshit, but the bottom line is COST.

You can take your RX7 to KD Rotary and have him install a stock reman engine for around $3000. You can do it yourself for around $2000. These are factual quoted numbers, not ideas or guesses. If you take the car to KD, you will get a car back that runs and handles as the car should and was designed to, and he will back you up if there is a problem. You also get a 1 year Mazda Warranty with the motor.

NOW Can ANYONE convert an RX7 to any V-8 that runs, handles, performs, etc equivalent to a stock RX7 for the prices listed above. In other words, will someone do a complete conversion for $3000 or a kit for $2000 engine and tranny included? If so, PLEASE POST and end this bickering. If you cannot, then just shut the H#LL up and keep to yourself.

IF COST IS NOT A FACTOR, by all means, put on the Air Flow Research Cylinder heads on a titanium cast block with neutronic bearing seals and forged wiffle bearings on the platinum/irridium turbo charged butt muncher intake and take it to granny's shop and have her balance and blueprint the seatbelts for street use and drive it home to wax it in the garage.

If you have to PRICE a V-8 conversion, you probably cannot afford it. If you WANT a V-8 conversion, by all means do what you want and suffer the consequences.

PRICE buys Rotaries, MONEY buys V-8.

Tim "I'm tired of people wanting to screw with perfection - Rotary Engines" McCreary

jimlab

A) $2,450 for the bare castings.

B) Not everyone lives next door to KD Rotary.

C) $3,000 for a remanufactured replacement with the odds stacked towards having to do it again eventually, or $5,000 for a replacement that you could easily get 200,000 miles out of with proper maintenance and no worries?

You're right, cost is a factor for most. Many people don't want to have to maintain two budgets... one for mods, and one for engine replacements.

It's not your car, so what are you so worried about?

Mindphrame

HAHA, LMAO. I cant belive this has turned into this. I would LOVE to see a v-8 rx-7 (px-7) go. I would get such a kick out of it. Its like thoes doge caravans that run 11 sec. Its just something that you dont see everyday. Now I would never concider doing it, I happen to love the hopped up cusineart rapped in a wool blanket sound. To me nothing beats the whine of the turbos. But then again I love it when a Viper venom pulls up next to me and the ground starts shakeing. But it has to be a finly tuned V-8 for me to like it. I dont like when they idel with cams and what not and sound like they are about to stall out, sounds like a harley. ECH! No thanks. You know I cant belive that this has caused such a hub bub again. Do what ever the hell you want with the car. ITS A FRIKKIN CAR. I bought a rx7 to be diff, only 3 rx7s in my town that Ive see so far. I love the style, the 'go-cart' feel. People are creating a whole new bread of rx7's, so its a mutant, its still gotta be fun to tinker with and try to make go fast. And the looks on ppls faces are going to be priceless. You must bring a camera around to get ppls reactions. One request once you complete this, you gotta post a video of it with sound. I belive the 'soul' of the rx7 that so many ppl have talked about is being diffrent, why not make something thats already different...different..er I figure hell..EVERYBODY should do a V-8 conversion, just makes my car worth that much more (to me anyway)

Ahh well...so I dont know what the hell im talking about. Have fun with the conversion, lets us know how it goes. Maybe post it descreetly, something like "DONT READ THIS IF YOU DONT LIKE V-8s" you know...keep it on the D/L

4rotors

there is not enough fd's to go around to be doing this conversion, plus this could be one of the best engines ever made, but it well never mature if the rx-7 owners keep ditching their engines.

Tim McCreary

Jim, so let me get this straight:

A: The bare cast head in your post cost $2450? WOW!!
B: Not everyone lives next door to Granny's Speed Shop Either, but many people are reasonably close to a Mazda Dealer.
C: $3000 for an installed reman engine, $2000 for DIY. Is your quoted price of $5000 the installed price? Let's not mix apples with oranges. Please clarify both prices for installed and DIY. What will YOU charge for an installation at your shop. Also I see you have carefully chosen the word COULD instead of WILL in your sentence. Remember, many engines could easily get 200,000 miles with proper maintenance and no worries. This includes Rotary engines. Also remember many engines die before 50,000 miles, including rotary engines. Also remember, the higher the performance modifications, generally the less engine life no matter what engine it is. Generally, the third generation engine appears to fail around 60,000 straight from the factory with no modifications (This based on my research in purchasing an RX7). With reliability modifications, this will increase drastically (yes this comes at an additional price). I have never owned a car and run it for 200,000 miles, although I have kept a car and run it 60,000 miles before getting something else. Oh, by the way, I have owned well over 40 vehicles (mostly sports cars, several RX7's) since I started driving 18 years ago. If I keep my RX7 for a long time, chances are that I will not put many miles on it anyway (about 5000 per year).

I am not here to argue with your choice of modification of your car. In fact, I would highly recommend anyone who want to do the conversion to go to you specifically. You are very versed in this type of modification and from your posts, appear to be the KD Rotary of V-8 Conversions. Your thought process and meticulous attention to details shines through with each picture and post that I have seen. I applaud you for giving people an alternative to the obvious current choices, and hope your business continues to do well. My hope is to create a clear understanding of the costs involved to people considering this type of switch. Let each individual then choose the route that they wish to travel from there.

Thanks,
Tim (I need to get a life soon, my wife is going to kill me) McCreary

jimlab

A) Yep, $2,450. For a custom casting with revised coolant passages and modified intake and exhaust port locations based on our specifications.

B) Not everyone lives next door to KD Rotary or Granny's, but the difference is, you won't need KD Rotary to tune your LT1, and the vast majority of people WILL need a shop like KD Rotary to properly turn their rotary, and they'll STILL have to worry... even KD Rotary customers lose engines occasionally, I'd be willing to bet. As far as I know, no tuner has cornered the market on how to keep a rotary alive indefinitely.

C) $5,000 (or less) is an average for a DIY install of the LT1, including the conversion parts. And sure, you could do a $2,000 DIY replacement of a rotary engine, but you'll still have to track down and find the problem that killed the engine you're replacing, because just replacing the "block" doesn't fix the problem.

Also, it should be noted that much (if not all) of the conversion cost can be covered by selling the (hopefully still running) rotary motor, or parting out the components which are no longer used, like the transmission, clutch, flywheel, intercooler, etc. especially if they're desirable aftermarket pieces.

As for 200,000+ mile longevity, your chances are so much higher with an LT1 than with a rotary that you might as well say it was a given. I am sure that *someone* could coax a turbocharged rotary to 200,000 miles by doing all the longevity mods, keeping it limited to stock boost, and maintaining it regularly. As far as I know, it hasn't happened yet. Most don't make it to 100k, even stock, as you pointed out. However an LT1 that doesn't make it to 100k without problems is an exception to the rule.

There are hundreds of 100k+ mile LT1 cars, some very heavily modified, that are still running strong. The LT1 is, for all intents and purposes, a small block Chevy with revised cooling flow, and shares many of the same parts. There are small block Chevy motors with well over 300,000 miles on them that still run well. Of course they're going to blow some smoke (as if even a brand new rotary motor without catalytic converters doesn't also...) because of the wear on the piston rings and cylinder walls, but that engine will still get your butt home at the end of the day, and that's something that can't always be said for the rotary. When they decide to give up, there often aren't any warning signs, and often it cripples the car. A car that won't idle and won't stay running is hard to limp home in.

I'm not arguing that anyone should install a V8 in their RX-7. In fact, if I had been the only one, that would have been fine with me. Apparently though, there are quite a few people who are interested in an alternate power source because of cost or frustration or whatever, and those people (who ARE RX-7 owners, no matter what people want to call the hybrid cars) have a right to read information on the swap. (not arguing with you Tim, just pointing this out to everyone). Where is the logical place for them to get that information? Well, if they don't know to come directly to Granny's, Bill Hagen, or myself, then they come here.

I'm tired of people (who likely have very little real knowledge of their own cars) telling other people to "keep it rotary". If you want to, take your own advice, but let other people who are fed up with rotary engines, for whatever reason, do what they want with their car. It will always be seen as "blasphemy" to replace the original powerplant with something from a different manufacturer, whether the car is a Jaguar, a Porsche, or an RX-7, because purists believe that the car should have the engine that it came from the factory with. Other people just want to drive their cars and don't want to leave them for 2 months at a time at a KD Rotary, a Tri-Point, a Mostly Mazda (M2 Performance) and DEFINITELY not at a Mazda dealership, and would rather just enjoy driving the car. Sometimes in order to do that, you have to just pitch the so-called heritage of the car out the window and go with what works for YOU.

And you don't need anyone else telling you you're committing a cardinal sin, because A) you already know it, and B) you obviously don't care.

jimlab

Thanks Tim.

I should point out that I'm not affiliated with Granny's Speed Shop in any way (with the exception of working with them on the development of the conversion parts which were prototyped on my car) and that I don't make any money whatsoever when someone decides to convert. I have no finiancial interest in getting people to convert to V8 power, and as I said before, if I had been the only one, that would have been just fine with me. I also don't perform the conversions or have any intention of ever doing so. I hate working on my own cars as it is.

SPOautos

Thats exactly my point, I've already seen all these kits and knew about them before my post. The company listed above has kits that start at 4K and 4.6K NOT counting needed fuel and electronics upgrade which to get the kind of HP were talking about I'm sure the fuel/computer mods will add another $1500 or so. The more expensive kit for 4.6K+fuel and computer uses a T-76 turbo and puts out a peak hp of 480......a VERY far cry from OVER 600rwhp for $3500!!!!! Like I said earlier guys, dont get me wrong I like V8's fine but dont think its cracked up to what some people think it is. Kinda like on of those grass is always greener on the other side kinda things.

BTW - Jim thats a beautiful set of heads!!!

Mid_KnightFD

You people make me sick! First off there is no way that your car would ever handle the same as it did if you put a v8 in it, second i havent had any z28 or corvete out run my car so why would you want to do it anyway, and even if you did turbo it or what have you ive never heard of a complete kit for $3500,and with any car you highly modify, reliabilty goes out the door so just deal with it and dont **** up a great car!!putting a v8 in an fd ha

FastX7

Like what it normally boils down to... it's 'your' car so do what you want with it. Whatever kind of argument you come up with, it does still boil down to removing what the car is based on. It was never made with a piston engine, so why put one in? I bought it because of the rotary, not because of the handling or looks so much. If you want to stick an LT1 in a Miata, then by all means, go ahead, it was made with pistons, just put bigger ones in If your gonna do that, you might as well go to a different forum because you'll just get flamed here for taking out the rotary. All of you try to say how much more reliable the V8 is. Someone mentioned before, modifying an engine is detrimentle to it's longevity. A friend of mine with a Vette, that surprisingly still has the LT1 in it, has a heavily modified engine and it doesn't last but maybe 50k miles. It's not from faulty construction, just that modifying that motor causes it to wear out quicker. He's on his 3rd motor in his Vette, with the original motor (block). So, you can't tell ME that LT1's are invincible, the way you make it sound I'm just giving you my personal experience that I haven't found any one engine being better than the other That's MY .02, so read it and know that I don't care what anyone else says, once a rotary it should always be a rotary... or maybe even lose the pistons and go rotary :p

50tooslow

I almost thought about putting my 0.02 cents in but I think it would just be beating a dead horse. I'm sure somewhere someone hates me for putting a chevy v-8 in my jeep. This was all very interesting but got some what repetitive. Even though I used to be a die hard Chevy guy ( until the FD) I think that I'm staying with the rotary. If any of you all converting to a v-8 would like to sell some of your old stuff, I among many others will be more than happy to buy it. I wish the best of luck to all of you conversion people. I was wondering if any of you had considered the new LS-1 GM sells it all for around $12,000 this is brand new engine, wiring harness, and computer. It even comes with a warrenty. This is what the ASA cars run and have them last under severe race conditions. They have been runing them for two years now and have had very few problems. But this is expensive though. Well any ways if anyone will be selling a fmic or smic and a power fc when they convert email me at FDRX7@ukans.edu. thanks.

Andrew

iTrader: (1)

BAAAAAAAARRRRFFFFF!!!!!

Yeah, go ahead and put a monstrous V8 in there if you want to screw up the 2 best things about the best car in the world go ahead! Not only will you no longer have a conceptually perfect rotary engine, but all that extra weight you've burdened the front end of your car with wil completely screw up your balance and handling.

If you want a "reliable" sportscar, get a Corvette.

Sell your RX-7 now! Felix is turning in his grave.

Viper jr

It always amazes me how circular these V8 threads get - one person touts the merits of the conversion, three will decry it as heresy, one or two will be neutral about it, repeat, repeat, repeat.

FastX7

ha ha ha, heresy :p that was a good one

jimlab

You left out 4 or 5 idiots spouting crap about weight imbalance and weight gain without the benefit of having given a moment's thought or doing an ounce of research on the subject. V8? Must be heavy... "DAMN, boy, don't you know that it'll never handle again? What was YOU thinkin'???"

So what would you say if the car retained 50/50 weight balance front to rear, weighed less than a base model, and made over 650 horsepower and about 600 ft. lbs. of torque on pump gas, most of it coming on at just off idle, and had a far stronger 6-speed behind it? What if it got better gas mileage, had a longer life expectancy than a rotary engine in the same ballpark, didn't coat the *** end of the car with soot or sound like a blatty chainsaw on crack? I'd say you had something there...

Enjoy your rotary. There are some of us who are unimpressed by the (lack of) low end torque, necessity of constant pampering, excessive oil consumption, low gas mileage, droning and blatty exhaust note, grade-school-cool backfiring, or any of the other "benefits" of a modified rotary engine. Not to mention the cold hard fact that you'd better start saving for your next engine replacement immediately after installing the one in the car... because chances are good you'll need it.

Conceptually perfect? Why, because it fires all chambers on each rotation of the eccentric shaft? So what. Because it has so few moving parts? Yeah, but it has a huge number of very delicate seals without which it won't even limp you home reliably. It has a predilection to overheating, uses too much fuel to keep it from detonating, burns oil as a necessity, and wastes a lot of power because the combustion process is completed in the exhaust pipe instead of in the engine... sounds perfect to me.

Now, this thread would be perfect if someone would just chime in with how rotaries are perfectly reliable if you maintain and tune them properly, and if they weren't previously abused...

dclin

iTrader: (4)

Whatever your point of view, Jim's car sure does look sweet!

Post some pics of your car, Jim!

misdbman

Here is my take on things after putting on 100,000+ miles on both a '79 1st gen (12a) and a '86 2nd gen(13b Normally Aspirated), and now a '93 base TT.

A normally aspirated rotary is very reliable, although quirky. I've personally run the crap out of both of these cars (7k+ on the tach daily) and both made it to 130,000+ miles. They stink\smoke run rough sometimes when cold, and lack low end torque, but the power when warm is silky smooth and constant. Great for a Miata-sized sport car to run fast on a back road.

The '93+ TT is not smooth after modded (or before) - power is a all-or-nothing affair. Great for a kick in the pants but far from the smoothness and ease of modulating power of a NA car(you might get it to approach smooth with a PFC). I find it difficult to run fast on a back road since the power surge when the turbos come on will make you swap ends. That said, the handling of the 3rd gen is near perfect, much better than the previous models (esp 2nd gen).

As the car has gotten more complex over the models, it has gotten less reliable. Each model has been expodentially more expensive to maintain. Mazda needs to learn quality control from Toyota.

All this said, I understand why Mazda is putting a NA engine in the RX8. I know us speed freaks will want (and make turbo kits) the kick in the pants, but the NA rotary is a great sports car engine. I'm not sure what it is about the turbo boost which causes the motors to blow prematurely(?too much power against the seals above it's design limits), but it is a known fact that the TT motor does not take abuse like the NA.

Personally I'll keep the rotary in mine, but I'd like if I could get the same power normally aspirated for smooth power modulation.

Hey, how about a Chrysler Hemi in an FD? I think you can get a crate motor from Mopar for a good price. Probably heavier than an LT1. For one, I think a drive in a V8 FD would be a kick. Sign me up for a ride...