2hotrods

Me, too...............

2hotrods

Origially posted by my son, Tim some months ago........ Just about says it all.


Every time I read one of these threads I just sit and shake my head. "you killed your handling...you took the "soul" out...it would lose to its non-piston counterpart" etc, etc, etc. I guess ignorance is bliss. I can guarantee that NONE of you have ever ridden in or seen an LS1 FD in person. Let's address these one by one...

1)You killed your handling-
Really? How so? The car retains its 50/50 weight distribution after the swap seeing as the weight between an LS1 and a 13brew with the turbos/intercooler/etc is about 30lbs. Move the battery to the back (which you have to do anyway), and the car is just as balanced as it was before. I guess you go into everyone's thread posting about the stereo system they put in their FD and start posting about how they killed the handling right? This conversion does NOT kill the handling. The car still handles the same. The CG of the engine post/prior conversion changes about 1.5%...meaning that if you had a professional driver driving both cars, he may notice the absolute slightest of difference...however the extra 200 ft/lbs of torque to get you out of the corner MORE than makes up for it. In other words...an LS1 FD will beat an equivalent powered rotary FD around a road course. It's called area under the curve...look it up.

2)You took the "soul" out.
Yeah, I guess you're right. He took one of the most finicky, unreliable, gas hogging "souls" out of the car and replaced it with a more efficient, reliable soul. Did I mention that it makes well over 400 whp N/A? AND gets 30mpg on the interstate? Are there any rotary FD's that can do that? Nope. 400whp FD's are few and far between. Yes, they are out there...but the vast majority of those that have the mods capable of doing it, either aren't tuned correctly or aren't running correctly. I have every bolt-on there is on my FD, including a PowerFC, intercooler, etc, etc, etc...and my car would absolutely get RAPED by 2hotrod's car. So I guess some people are content to keep the "soul" in there. I obviously have my 13brew still, so it must be for a reason. I understand that you like the idea that it makes the car unique, etc. But guess what, the car with the LS1 conversion is even MORE unique.

3)It would lose to its non-piston counterpart...
Not a chance in hell. A very mildly modded LS1 will make over 400whp to the ground. I know there are a few 500+, even 600+ whp 13bs running around...but like I said before, not many. For those, a simple 150shot would probably do the trick. Or, you could go all out and to a turbo LS1...then its all over. How does 800+whp and 700+ft lbs in a 2700lb car sound? The LS1 has WAY more hp potential than any 13b, swap in a 20b and mod the **** out of it and now you might stand a chance. (Of course, they WOULD be killing the handling and 50/50 distribution of the car since the 20b is WAY heavier than an LS1...but you knew that right?) Hinson is working on a twin turbo monster as we speak. The car will hit 1000+ hp and will most likely run 8s on pump gas, and we're not talking about a stripped down car, or a tube chassis or anything. Its an honest to goodness "street" car. I guess there are 13b powered street FD's running 8s on pump gas? riiiiiiight.


In summary...you all have the right to your own opinion (even if you are misinformed or wrong altogether). But try to at least have a little bit of knowledge about this conversion before you step up and start bashing it. My guess is that everyone here who just bashed this car would get there asses stomped by it, and afterwards would be crying about how they don't care if its faster, theirs is better because it still has the "soul" of the Rx7. Or how they don't like the sound of an uncorked V8, they prefer the sound of the uncorked weed whacker that an opened up 13b has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by takumi4G63
I don't see how the LS1 has a broader powerband. The power comes on earlier but it also ends earlier. You have power from 2-6000 instead of 4-8000. So how is that in any way a superior powerband?


If you were comparing a moderately powered 13b, I would probably say you are close to having a valid argument there...as a sequential 3rd gen's power at 4k can be pretty decent compared to its peak. However, we are talking about 400-450whp 13bs as compared to a 400-450whp LS1. (which will rev to about 6800-7k btw, so its not as shallow as you think) Take a 13b with a ported motor and a t78 or the like. The cars I've seen aren't even at full boost yet by 4k, and are only making in the 230hp range...if that. Are they as peaky as a 4cyl Honda? Of course not...but they don't have the area under the curve like a V8 does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by takumi4G63
If these high-torque low-revving V8's are what it's all about in road racing, why is it that you have low-bottom-end-torque VERY HIGH revving engines in F1 cars?

Because that's what's best for road racing, high power, high revs. Because it doesn't matter at all having power in the low rpms when you are road racing. You're never there. If you had a 13b with power only between 6 and 8k you would have a point, but most 13b's at least have a good 4k rpm powerband, and that's all you need for road racing.


True to an extent...but even in road racing there are times you come out of a low speed turn and the low end grunt will help. There is a thread about this in the "other engines" section about road course testing an LS1/FD. Besides that...how many of the 3rd gens on this board do you think would survive a day of road racing? Spending 30+ minutes at redline or near it? How many owners do you think would sign up to go do that? Not saying there aren't any...because obviously there are. However, most 3rd gens are driven on the street...and the street only. So unless you drive around everywhere on the street banging off the rev limiter...then yes, low rpm horsepower is a good thing to have.

So, in summary...if you ever get the opportunity to drive an LS1/FD, please do it, even if you would never entertain the idea of swapping your Rx7. It will help you to understand better. I used to say the exact same things you are saying now until I got behind the wheel of 2hotrod's car and drove it. It will slam you to the seat in any gear...at any rpm INSTANTLY, and hold you there until you shift. Don't get me wrong, I like the feel of "boost" but the difference is substantial. As far as racing goes...I'll take a 2k-7k power band over a 5-8k power band any day of the week.

sub9lulu

iTrader: (7)

2hotrod, thats long
and very well said

btw where the heck is pace, fl ? i needd to do a lsx conversion very soon? mind to give me a ride ?

2hotrods

Just east of Pensacola in Santa Rosa County. No problem with a short demo ride. Just PM me....

SSRx7

This really brings up a valid point. How many die hard anti-swappers are out there who have actually ridden/driven a swapped rx7, especially an LSx swapped 7 and said, "I still don't see why you guys do this." ?

I think I have actually read or heard one person who was not impressed by the difference the swap made. It seems that every day I read another "I used to think that way until I rode in so-n-so's car."

I like rotary engines for a stock driver. It runs smooth. but anytime I want to play, well it seems like I'm always looking at someone else's tail-lites. And for 1.3 liters, it gets lousy gas mileage. The absolute best has been 18mpg. My 7000lb crewcab 1500HD with 6.0 L gets 13mpg around town and that is 4.6 times bigger engine. And the truck weighs 2.7 times as much as the rx7. For 5mpg that is ridiculous.

Pretty sad that the only one of my co-worker's cars that my 13b NA can beat at acceleration is my buddies diesel rabbit.... His other car, a 240sx 4 banger leaves me in the dust.. Granted the vert is completely stock. But as a stock daily driver, my wife's old completely stock 89 Olds Cutlas Calais S with the 2.5 Quad-4 would smoke it. I know the Quad-4's could make some decent power, but we are talking about a 4 door, soft suspension family grocery getter compaired to a true sports car.


As far as the rotary Corvettes mentioned above, well, I see the world is just full of them......

I said it before, and I say it again. If you want to keep the rotary (stock or modified) engine in YOUR car, then cool. If you want to swap another engine into YOUR car, then cool.

Later,
Bill

2hotrods

Well said. For myself, it is very "zen-like" to daily drive (20K plus miles per year) a car that can get in the high 10's, average well over 20 mpg combined city/highway, and be stone reliable while doing it. Peace out....

Rick

stilettoman

iTrader: (1)

"How many die hard anti-swappers are out there who have actually ridden/driven a swapped rx7, especially an LSx swapped 7 and said, "I still don't see why you guys do this."

I think a more fundamental question is - How many die hard anti-swappers are there who have EVER built anything automotive with their own two hands, requiring any creative imagination, fabrication skills and problem solving ability?????

I challenge anyone who has posted negative comments about these engine swaps to post us some photos of interesting car projects they have done with their own hands.

My credentials are shown here:

www.cardomain.com/ride/646433

slo

iTrader: (1)

Wow you've got some impressive projects, back to the subject of your original post there are die hard anti-swappers in every car community, where the car is worthy of getting a swap.

Just look at the ford VS chevy debate, I used to work for a hot rod shop, the owner was a ford guy, and occasionally we would see fords built with SBC's. That would really **** the boss off, he wasn't complaining because it wasn't original, he would be fine if it was a 5.0 or other ford motor.

Is this any different?

383Mazda

Someone mentioned earlier that every few years a new "big engine small car" idea comes out, like the 302 in the mg's, or the V8's in the pintos... and now the V8 in the rx7. They're are all great ideas, why? Because they're tiny cars with weak motors from the factory, so you fix that by putting a better motor in it. If the rotory motor came with 350hp from the factory, and could make 100 more with some simple bolt-on's I'm sure people wouldn't put V8's in them. Just like the Buick GN's, why don't people pull out the V6 and put a small block in them?? Cause you can make 500hp with the V6 for very little $$
The rotory motor is a great idea, but just not as practical as a piston motor. GM once put a jet motor in a car back in the 50's... a jet motor is WAY more "technical" and efficiant than the rotory... but was it practical? NO, which is why you don't see jet motors (turbins) in GM's cars today. Same with the rotory, if it were better than the piston motor, all the car companies would be using them.
If I had the money, I'd put the rotory motor I took out of my FC and put it in a gokart frame, that would make an INCREADIBLE combo. (and would probably be faster than my rx7 anyway, lol) And yes, eventhough I'm a hick redneck, I would be able to fab the whole thing MYSELF!!!

And as far as the "purists" go... I've never met one "purists" who got made at my conversion who was older than 21... I bet most of the FLAMERS on here are just little kids... read their posts, most mature adults don't do the name calling and other BS like they do.
In fact, my father and I own a mobil chassis dyno, and a few years ago we were going to go to a mazda show and test one of there new turbo'd rx8's... and it turns out that some of the mazda exects were interested in seeing some V8 rx7's there as well... They were impressed with the idea. That's right, the guys who originally put the rotory motor into their own Rx7 wanted to see the V8 conversion!

TheWrongMotor

I'll add to that. I have a relative that works at Mazda U.S. headquarters. He's a big fan of his company, but LOVES my LS1 RX-7.

383Mazda, is your dad "Bob"? If so, tell him Mark in Huntsville says "hi".

Turbo 3

iTrader: (3)

http://www.turbinecar.com/sia/sia57.htm

Turbine car, not a "jet" car

Captain Insano

Couldn't agree more with your statements.

I am about to aquire an LS1 FD. I must say, I think the rotary engine is a very cool engine. That being said, I am coming from a turbo car (STi) and it seems there is more potential to go wrong on a turbo motor than on an N/A motor. I'm not singling out rotaries, I'm singling out turbos - so everybody please don't get in a tiff. N/A 13B won't make enough power for me. The LS1 attracts me b/c it's very simple and I am not going to do forced induction on it because I don't have to used FI to make my power goal of 400+ RWHP.

I know, I know, turbo cars can be reliable. I totally agree. But once you start modifying, it just seems turbos have more factors that can go wrong. That's not to say I don't like turbo cars, because nothing could be further from the truth.

The reason the FD attracts me is b/c it's basically a supercar when it comes to weight and balance. I like that coupled with the flat torque curve of a large N/A engine. I know this is blasphemy to some, but to me, it just makes sense. I plan on doing longtube headers, exhaust, cams, heads & tune and call it a day. I'll be making 425+ at the rear wheels with a huge, and I mean HUGE area under the curve.

If that offends some, I apologize. To each their own...

Captain Insano

Again - I agree on all points. Well stated 2hotrods.

SSRx7

Wow! I actually have people agreeing with me for a change LOL !!!

I would like to take the 13b NA and the 5spd and put it in say a mid 70's Carolla..... make a nice little autocrosser or drift car.......

Later,
Bill