ProBlasphemer

So since my last thread was such a raging success - I didn't have the time to really contribute and my original post was rushed due to the fact that I was at a library at the time. Now, however, I have time to spare. I think we can beat 11 pages, but hopefully, we won't have to.

Of course, we all hear the stories about how such-and-such bought a $10 turbo and slapped it onto his econo-car and destroyed every piece of high-dollar machinery in three states. But let's be honest: this is the internet, and even without the convenient cloak of anonymity it provides, human beings are nothing if not prone to two states of being: A) being ignorant, if not outright stupid, and B) being full of ****. Frankly, if everyone could have 500hp and 50mpg for peanuts we'd all be doing it, including the manufacturers, and V8 engines would be a quaint, nostalgic echo of the past. "Why won't these knuckle-draggers give up their dinosaur technology and get with the import crowd?" Well, here's part of the reason why. I'll illustrate the other part of that particular statement after a handful of replies, I'm sure.

The Real Cost of High-tech Horsepower

I'm sure we'd all like to like to live in the fantasy world that's woven by various automotive magazines and internet forums, but the fact of the matter is that going fast costs money. Exactly how much might be up to debate, and I'm sure that people who have a hundred large to spend on a car could care less, but if any of us were in that situation, we'd be sipping a single malt scotch and getting blown by our wannabe model girlfriend while some other jagoff was building our car, not on the internet forums getting into arguments over what some guy you've never met is doing to a car that you don't own. But we're not, and here we are.

Frankly, I've noticed that while few magazines ever like to provide buildup sheets for their projects - ones that include costs, at least - the import/Japanese subgroup almost never post their costs. The focus is on that 1.1gs the car pulls in a corner, not the fact that the coilovers it's wearing are 2300 bucks, which is attached to a suspension with 500 bucks of modifications and the 3000 dollar set of forged wheels and tires that last five minutes in the real world. The magazines are there to sell advertising, and you know that for every car that gets built, there's at least ten piles of parts that were 'cheap enough' to buy and pile up, right until you saw what your car was actually going to cost, and they count on this. I always see these magazines - and these forums - touting the NSX as some technological wonder, and call the Corvette a 'pos dinosaur' and bitch about the interior. Never mind that one doesn't crack 300hp and is slower than more pedestrian hardware, yet costs 100 large - twice that of a C5 Z06 when new, or a new C6 with actually more horsepower than the old Z06. This seems to be the prevalent attitude amongst the import enthusiasts, although some people like to just take things for what they are and could give a **** about anything but going fast. These types of people exist on both sides of the import/domestic divide and often cross over or own both types of vehicles at once.

But once, so far, I've seen an import magazine publish the real cost of one of their buildups, and it's telling:

"What 274 hp costs
Disco Potato Turbo $1,800
GReddy downpipe $170
Landspeed cat $300
JIC 5053 Ti exhaust $1,240
A'PEXi intercooler and welding $750
GReddy Type-S BOV $225
ThermalFlex hoses $150
Intercooler pipes (Road/Race) $400
Koyo radiator $440
Flex-a-Lite 320 fans $250
JWT/Cobra MAF $325
Ford compatible POP charger $150
Nismo injectors $800
JWT ECU (custom tune) $595
TOTAL $7,595
This is why you never stop and add it up. The prices listed here are full retail. Wheedle, deal, cut corners, buy used and do it in stages. It will be worth it."

That was the buildup for a fairly cheap car to build, an S13 Silvia/240SX. It doesn't include the cost of the engine swap, either, or the upgraded clutch you'll need, or the upgrades necessary to prevent the thing from overheating when you get on it for more than a few seconds at a time. So let's look at it this way - I'll just say 7500 for the sake of this argument, knowing that actual costs are in fact higher. This is for 275hp at the wheels, maybe 325 or so at the crank.

Now, remember kids, just because this engine's packing a custom ECU, forged internals (factory, but still there), DOHC, custom this and custom that, a turbocharger (and not a cheap one, either), etc, the cold hard fact of the matter is that it makes 275hp.

Why all of this this to make 275 hp? Because driving this car with this motor doesn't suck, that's why. You could theoretically make more hp for less money with a 'dinosaur' T3/T4 turbo, but you'd have to deal with the **** drivability and turbo lag that goes with it. This particular turbo is at the sweet spot, not a lot of lag but a decent amount of power and good drivability characteristics. The article can be found here for your perusal: http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/pr...t_2/index.html

Why should a V8 be considered?

V8's are supposedly old technology, a completely barbaric, throwback approach to making power that doesn't jibe with the ways of the world today. (Some would say yes, and that's exactly part of the appeal, but that's another discussion.) They're not durable, they weigh a ton and they get horrible gas mileage.

And, in fact, there are some engine designs that are V8s that have exactly those problems. Just like there are, in fact, import designs that might return great gas mileage but tend to make more noise than power, to say nothing of torque, although you can hardly put all of them in that category. As a matter of fact, some V8 engines are highly durable (ask around, a good motor's reputation tends to speak for itself) and if the factory didn't design them that way, then the aftermarket has the solutions for it, and likely for less than it would cost to rebuild a Japanese piston engine (I always see Honda guys bitching: "How is it that you can get 8 pistons for a 350 for less than four for a Honda?" And this is for a B-series motor, the most popular and common Honda performance engine!). This is especially true for the original Small Block Chevy V8 - not only is this engine relatively lightweight, but the aftermarket availability for this motor is simply second to none - although, the air-cooled VW Type I engine comes close. If they make it, they make it for a Small Block Chevy.

But this isn't the only game in town: if you want availability of both drivetrains and parts to modify them, the Ford 5.0 engine is a great choice, if only for the fact that it has a superior factory injection system than the SBC (the TPI doesn't make power above 5500rpm and wasn't widely available. Later, better induction systems don't bolt to a stock SBC). Just keep the power at 400hp or below: the 5.0/302 is even lighter than the Small Block Chevy, but at the cost of durability: crest 425 hp and more likely than not you'll split the block down the center. Of course, there are aftermarket blocks to fix this, too.

And while I'm sure there are more than enough reasons to go to bat for the truly old school motors - the SBC was in production for forty years in countless variations, a longevity that is simply unmatched by any Japanese engine design, most of which get tossed after a few chassis generations. There are newer designs that take the old appealing aspects of the old school engines and update them with modern manufacturing tolerances and engine management technology. And while most will look to Ford since you import guys tend to be pushrod-phobic, you'd be wrong - while they aren't bad designs in their own right, the Ford modular motors aren't much to scream about. The DOHC and SOHC designs added size to the equation - the motors aren't very light, and the DOHC versions take up as much space in the engine bay as an old-school big block! Not good, especially when you consider that the displacement is only going to be 5.4l at most, and more likely 4.6l than not. These motors only tend to make truly decent power when under boost, which just adds more weight to the nose of the car and takes up more room than these behemoths already do.

No, we're really looking at the Chevy LS-series motors. These motors are still OHV, but the blocks are either aluminum (widely available) or iron (can be had for almost nothing in junkyards and are still light, most come with aluminum heads from the factory). They're very light, lighter than many twin turbo import motors that, in most cases, are the ones making the big horsepower (mostly the the 300ZX and Supra, both cars that aren't that compact making a rep for light, compact cars, yet they weigh about as much as an 80's Vette or Camaro). Those motors aren't as light as you'd like to think - DOHC heads are bigger and thus heavier than OHV heads. And quick, which is lighter - one cam, or four? Two feet of timing chain, or six to eight? A motor that makes good power naturally aspirated, or one that requires a pair of turbos, an intercooler, blow off valves and wastegates, and all of the associated plumbing necessary to make it work? Then throw in little bonuses, like the fact that you can easily change your cam out - have some thumping, nasty cam for track days and swap in something more civilized for the other 95% of your driving. This is with very good factory heads (ones that tend to exceed flow rates for all but the best aftermarket SBC heads), a perfectly good EFI system and available factory induction systems that can handle 500+ hp and 7000+ RPM.

Yeah, those pushrods sure suck, don't they? Boy, I just wish I had all of that great technology that doesn't make any real horsepower until you shove boost down its throat, which any motor at all will do. Even old side valve sixes wake up when you strap on a turbo - boost tends to make up for inefficiencies that hold back naturally aspirated designs. A few years back, I remember one of the Hot Rod magazine 'Top 10 Hot Rods of the Year' was a late 40's Chevy Sedan, and it was a sleeper - the car ran verified 10s in the quarter on the original six with a turbo charger. It was a cool car - factory brown on tan, yet was running Weld Drag Lites. But that just illustrates the point - not that the better design of the DOHC head doesn't make any difference, just not enough to justify this cult-like mantra. Flow is flow, like horsepower is horsepower, and let's talk about that.

LS motors tend to have an even power output - they aren't weak on the top end, revs being only limited by the factory valvetrain equipment to 5500-6000rpm - put some inexpensive aftermarket pushrods and rockers in there and rev even higher. The torque, not surprisingly, is prodigious - in M3 VS Z06 comparison tests, it was often pointed out that the LS6 Vette motor made more torque at idle than the M3's motor made at peak (previous generation, the new models will likely get squared off against each other again soon, and the Vette will be faster in all aspects, and the BMW will have the nicer interior. Some things never change.) This is the thing that's always overlooked with these motors - 'oh, well, it doesn't rev high like an import motor does.' Well, for one thing, comparable motors from the Japanese like the twin turbo Supra and 300ZX only revved to 6500rpm - the stock LS6 redline - yet don't make power down low like the V8 does. The V8 makes power off idle, while more revvy motors, by their very nature, won't wake up until they see 3000 rpm or later. Let's take stock of something - we'll take the factory configuration of the LS1 and put it against the B16 Honda, chosen because it's often the touchstone motor for this debate (please, some geek come and scream "100hp per liter!!" at me. Meanwhile, the motor is a 1.6l, making for a whole 160hp and 110lb-ft. THAT bit of math isn't mentioned much.). The LS1 makes power off idle and revs to 5500rpm stock: the B16 revs to 8000rpm, yet VTEC doesn't kick in until 6000rpm, making for a usable power band that's 2000rpm wide. The LS1 motor is going to be making not only more hp at all rpms, but there's a good 4000rpm of usable power band. RPMs do not equal speed and do not equal power, otherwise Vipers would be ******* slow. Also, it should be mentioned that most import motors don't rev nearly as high: for instance, 12a's have a 7000rpm redline, and that's still a bit high: most tend to rev to that or below, which is easily obtainable by the LS V8s.


So we have a good power band in even a basic motor, and the more performance oriented versions of the LS are even less compromised by higher factory redlines. But this surely comes at a price?

Yes, it does, but not as much as you'd think. The lowest output LS that I could find, and a motor I'm actually very interested in, in crate form is the 5.3l version putting out between 300 and 325hp. Scoggin-Dickey stocks these, new and complete minus ECU, for about 3000 bucks. Right there, we've already blown the Silvia example out of the water for half the price, and that's with looking the other way and supposing that you happen to be able to pick up SR20DET drivetrains with lots of life still in them for nothing - in which case, I'll take two, thanks. (If it's free, it's for me.) Keep in mind, we're talking about a warrantied, factory configuration motor that's going to make this kind of power all day long without breaking a sweat, not a motor that's stressed beyond factory intentions that's going to end up eating itself far sooner than it would in a stock configuration. Not to mention, this is a motor that will easily meet even the draconian California State emissions test, which a motor modified to this output likely will not. For a very reasonable price, at that - to say nothing of living in an area with more lax laws where you could pull one of these motors (or a 6.0l, almost equally as common) out of a wrecked Silverado, of which they sold millions and there are thus millions of spare parts out there available for these motors, a situation that isn't going to change for decades. Meanwhile, import guys are already bitching that all of the good motors are drying up - there aren't any new SR20s, VG30DETTs, 2JZs or 13bs being made, and they never had anywhere near the availability of these motors to begin with.

Now let's look at other motors: Scoggin Dickey lists one of my favorites, the LS6, for $6295. Granted, that's not pocket change, but you're talking a brand new motor, 405hp/400lb ft, 6500rpm redline, perfect drivability because it's a stock motor - no idle issues, no worries about exactly what kind of life your motor had in Japan for the 40000 miles it was being beaten on by someone who knew they were just going to buy a new one for the 40k inspection anyway. My replacement SR20DE motor for my SE-R arrived from Soko with a bunch of water in the intake from the degreasing process - it didn't end up causing any problems, but I got lucky, because if it had been tipped in the wrong direction my valves would have been covered in water, and likely one of the cylinder's intake valves would be open as well. Not good. Just paid X amount for a really nice core. Doesn't happen all of the time, but it does happen.

Actually, excuse me, but I just noticed the LS2 sitting there - five horsepower less, but also about a grand cheaper. Ouch.

Now, let's really open up a can of worms and look at what this SR20DET motor really cost: add another 2 grand for the drivetrain onto our $7500 total for the actual motor and transmission, and some more money for little things like motor mounts and water pumps and things like that - an even 10 grand. For 274hp. Which, since this apparently needs to be pointed out in the first place, is 126hp less than a V8 motor - brand new - which costs far less, even with the little things considered - like the grand it'll take to buy a T56 to bolt behind it and the ECU. This is also in the context of this forum, which would be to consider these motors as conceivably going into the same car.

To really rub some salt into this wound, since a lot of you guys like to act like you're Mr. Moneybags and the three grand you'd save on the V8 isn't that much to you, think about this: for another three grand past the SR20, you get what is so far the ultimate small block V8: the venerable LS7. 505hp, 470lb ft, 7200rpm, titanium rods, dry sump, still factory reliable, still emissions certified, makes power like a nasty big block but still weighs in like an LS1.

Of course, the Japanese motor will probably be more reliable in the end - as concerns the car as a whole - these damnedable dinosaur motors will likely break that stock rearend way faster than a comparable jap motor. Hey, there's some 'technology' for ya.

Of course, we haven't talked about boosting these motors yet, or just swapping in a less civil camshaft for serious gains. I love seeing the dyno numbers after some magazine swaps four cams onto a 350Z, cost well over a grand including labor (saying nothing of the dyno test itself) and the return is a paltry 20hp. Thing is, yeah, the LS1 wasn't engineered to the teeth by GM in a lot of ways, but that's a good thing. Unlike trying to pry horsepower out of a lot of Japanese motors - boost is the only thing that seems to really work - you can actually get decent gains from simple things like a cone filter and a good exhaust, meanwhile I've seen so many dyno tests done on import motors where the supposed gain was well within the 1% margin of error expected from pull to pull anyway. Bolt on a $500 header and see no real gains, unless of course you have fifteen other modifications and then you might see that advertised 15hp. Again, hp is hp, and if you're trying to boost the efficiency of a motor by a few percent here and there, are you going to get more gains out of a smaller motor, even assuming that they're to be had in the first place?



Well, I'm going to turn this over to you all, and I do eagerly anticipate all of the V8 bashing certain parties are already cooking up. After all, V8s suck - just ask Toyota about the IS-F, the only really exciting car to come around since the Supra left. Oh, and BMW too - sacrilege, really, putting a V8 where a four used to be! And going faster, too! How dare they?

qax

iTrader: (1)

IBanotherlockcausedbythesamepeoplesss;P

65Imp

iTrader: (8)

ProBlasphemer - please shut the h3!! up!

There are too many guys swapping ls1's into their rx-7's and other import cars. The cost of rx7 shells is going way up. Low mileage ls1 pullouts are getting more pricey. Worse yet, all these swapped cars are out on the streets, reducing the performance lead that I used to have. If guys want to be ignorant let them. This is the internet, no place for logical, well thought out, and expressed arguments.

What next, discussion of fuel efficiency, driveability, area under the curve, ease of modification!

stop the madness, please rectify your post with dyno plots for 1500 hp supras with train sized turbos poking through the hoods, running super secret race fuel from the space program, while their intercoolers sit in tanks of liquid nitrogen.


(and for the love of god don't say anything about the new ls9)

Troux

iTrader: (6)

V8s are higher performance than 4 cylinders? Don't let the secret out!

eriksseven

iTrader: (6)

Pointless essay.

88IntegraLS

I think there is a length limit for an effective troll. This effort tanked.

Jager

iTrader: (10)

I think someone needs a girlfriend.

ProBlasphemer

Why should I go and get a girlfriend of my own when yours puts out so readily? I prefer to just **** 'em - let a sucker like you work their life away paying their bills so they can get laid twice a month. Did she taste weird last night? My fault! I'll wear a rubber next time, I promise!

Seriously, I do love the maturity of a lot of the posts. But then again, I'm probably dealing with a guy pushing middle age with a dick that can only be measured by a micrometer (who's still trying to be funny, decades later) or some kid who can't figure out what he wants to spend mom's money on next, so it's expected.

Got anything else to say, there, Jagoff? Speaking of needing a girlfriend, don't you have anything better to do than post one-line, pointless replies to a post you couldn't debate half-coherently if you tried?

ProBlasphemer

Anyway...the purists should really stfu right about now...just bought a complete 9C1 Police Interceptor with an LT1 in it for 400 bucks, running and driving, and if I want all I need is a cheap 2nd gen shell and I'm in business.

Didn't think much of the LT1's because I didn't see a lot of specific parts for them...then I found out that that's because only the induction, heads, block, water pump and ignition are specific to the LT1. Everything else is SBC - rotating components, valvetrain, stroker kits, the works. Revs better than a TPI and makes more power everywhere.

However, Big Bertha has her charms too...fast as hell for a stock, big car that's 13 years old, it'll already outrun any Ford CVPI stock to stock. I'm in the midst of figuring out what I need to get it to the 300hp level of the Vette version of this motor. (B body LT1's have iron heads, but they used the same dies as the Corvette heads. I'm thinking it's detuned via the computer or has a wimpier cam in it - either one is a cheap fix). Not to mention, the humongoid back seat is perfect to crash in for cross country trips (I'm 6'2", and while I've 'slept' in the smaller import car back seats, it wasn't fun), the trunk is huge, five people fit comfortably (toss comfort out the window and invite the state of Rhode Island along for the ride!) and it tows 5000lbs. Plus, I'm thinking of moving back to New Orleans, and those roads eat up stock Jap cars, much less lowered ones with rubber band tires and heavy springs. This car will take the beating of some of the worst roads in America (and that's since before Katrina!).

Rebuild the motor with a 383 Scat rotating assembly (700 bucks and change for all forged rotating parts, including bearings and other little bits and pieces) and if about 400hp on pump gas isn't enough, there's always a nice 150 shot of nitrous in case a ricer happens to be pesky enough - doesn't happen often, but it does occasionally. Or just twin rear turbo the sonofabitch - my old boss is an exhaust guy, couple of rebuilt stock Volvo or Turbo Coupe turbos grafted into the rear section of the stock exhaust and a custom pipe up to the throttle body. Twin turbo 383 LT1 - has a nice ring to it, no?

Jager

iTrader: (10)

Oh yeah, you got me there. I can see you're plenty mature .

I love how you assume my girlfriend is a ***** and you assume I'm a working sucker? I really don't know if I should take offense to the last thing, but I should take it that you're just a retard who has yet to get outside the boundries of his desk.


Creepy how to spend alot of your time dreaming of my dick . And I can tell you, I'm hardly middle aged. So why do assume so much about me? Are you trying to be witty or smart?

Maybe you just have yet to be outside this month? Instead you sit around typing faggy essays on **** that people had figured out so long ago. Do you even how an RX7? A V8 powered car? Ever been on either? Ever been in a V8 powered RX-7? Even the SR20 cars that you seem to be able to bench race about.

Because it seems to a vast majority of us, that you're just another bench racer just trying to **** people off with mile long threads about nothing.

Always.

Speaking of not having anything to do, why the **** do you write small essays on the internet? What was the point of writing long essays on this ****?

It seems by your actions and not mine, that you have entirely too much time on your hands.

Now **** off and rear the quote in the signature. Jim said it to someone else that reminds me of you. I just can't say it any better.

SPEED_NYC

iTrader: (3)

if you guys are on this forum to talk about cars, lets talk about cars. Jager and
problasphemer lets keep this on topic and stop with the personal attacks NOW.

Troux

iTrader: (6)

What purists? NOBODY in this thread is a rotard/LS1 basher/rotary purist/anti-swapper. NOBODY in this thread has disagreed with you. We're just laughing because you probably spent a good hour or two putting together an essay on the most common knowledge about engines that exists.

It took you a few hundred words of pointless, meandering, thumb-twiddling thoughts to say "V8s are higher performance than small Japanese motors." Women who place their faith in Jiffy Lube and call AAA to replace a flat know that much. Do you feel smarter because you made common sense wordier? Would you have more respect for me if I gave you 1500 words on why pens work better with ink than without, or an evaluation of the benefits vs. time spent on removing the wrapper before eating a piece of candy?

rosey

iTrader: (1)

I was kind of hoping no one would respond to this thread and it would just get forgotten.

The OP reminds me of someone...someone that thinks they are a badass, but is really just a geek that annoys almost everybody....hmmm

Nihilanthic! Thought you tricked us coming up with another screen name, didn't you!

ProBlasphemer

Yeah. No one in this forum EVER, and I mean EVER, bashes V8s and goes into long-assed tirades about '**** pushrods' or any of that kind of ****, right? Never happens. No one who's ever owned an import has ever sat there and tried to make an argument about how somehow the horsepower available from a boosted four or rotary motor is better/easier/cheaper than V8 power.

Which would explain why I wouldn't have needed to say anything, right?

I came to this forum for the expressed purpose of researching the feasibility of a V8 RX7 swap, and for the most part, I got page upon page of geeks verbally pulling their hair out over the idea while offering no good reasons for what they were saying. Just a bunch of rehashed mumbo jumbo they read in Import Tuner about volumetric efficiency that they don't even understand, or how amazing it is that a 1300cc motor puts out the power it does, when anyone who really knows what's up knows that they really displace 2600cc, and actually need a turbo to realize the same kind of horsepower that an NA piston engine of the same size would make.

I'll try and keep logic and facts out of this forum - they obviously have no place here.

Oh, and btw, I've owned and driven several different V8 cars - supercharged 5.0 mustangs, 65 Impala 327 convertible, couple of land boats and trucks, and right now there's a 9C1 Caprice in my driveway - aka the poor man's Impala SS. Last year I sold my modded SE-R to go to California, so yeah, I've had SR20 powered cars as well. No sevens yet because I've seen even enthusiasts and import purists who tout the virtues of the car and engine turn around and bitch about their reliability issues the next breath, and no mechanic has ever, ever recommended them. So yeah, unless I buy a shell for a V8 swap, or decide that I have a few thousand bucks that I want to throw down a rotor-shaped hole in the ground, I won't be buying an RX7 anytime soon.

About the only argument that anyone has come up with is that I write long posts and don't give two ***** about the half-formed opinions of a bunch of geeks on an internet forum. Guilty as charged.

Come up with some cognizant, informed arguments, or just go bitch in the rotary-loving section of the forum where you'll find a bunch of people who agree with you. This thread would be dead and just info for the next would-be swapper, but a bunch of people with obviously nothing better to do won't let it go. Which is half of the point - I am ******* with you all, at the same time that I'm offering a valid viewpoint, and except for one or two people so far, you don't get it and still go right for the bait. What can I say...

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

It does happen. But so what? The main reason "rotards" say stuff like that is because of the pride they have for the only alternative engine design to make mass production and it doesn't include valves, heads cams or whatnot. Its neat, they like it, let them bash. Do those comments hurt your feelings enough that you need to rectify the horrible wrong commited?


Ever spend any time on a Mustang forum discussing a 20B swap? What do you honestly think would happen if you did?

Re-hashed? So you're saying the book you wrote at the top of this page isn't Re-hashed? Anyone who doesn't know the capability of a V8 has never seen one. So again, why does this bother you so much that you have to write an essay about it?

You should have realized this a long time ago. Welcome to the internet

I've owned and built many piston and rotary cars and YES, *gasp* they have reliability issues if you're not careful. Whoopdeedoo. A very close friend of mine runs a 96 firebird, stroked 572 running low 7's. Guess what? He's got reliability issues!! Who gives a flying **** man? serisouly. If he wants it, thats great. its an awesome car, more power to him for doing what he loves. He doesn't need to type "educational" articles that **re-hash** old arguments just to make himself feel better.

I believe that was an observation, not an argument.

Why do we have to argue with you? There's nothing wrong with a V8 swap - and there's nothing wrong with keeping it wankel. Why are you so hell bent on arguing the merits of it? There's plenty of upsides to both, and many of which can't be seen unless you are affectionate with the side you're eyeing up. Read around on the forum, LOTS of guys have done it, and it works well. If you want to do it - DO IT!

Give me a break. No body spends 1-2 hours writing an essay to sit back and watch people fall for his ingenious plan to humiliate them. You are as guilty as anyone else of driveling on and on so don't pretend to be holyier then thou.

It all boils down to this. There's plenty of ways to skin the power/reliability cat. Do whichever makes you happy. If I want to spend $4K on a 340 4spd and outfit my whatever - GREAT. If I want to spend $20K on a 20B swap for my whatver.....GREAT. Who gives a flying **** what everyone else is doing? Didn't you school teacher ever tell you to worry about your own work first?

/thread

Howi

iTrader: (2)

^^^ lol well said and great post.

omg a v8 guy finally found out about our secrets! They finally realized that we've been cheating in all the races!!!

seriously though, like what Troux said, the reason why u're not earning much respect here is because u talk common sense as if it's some secretive knowledge that only the enlightened and educated few would understand.

btw, welcome to rx7club.

howi

Troux

iTrader: (6)

I've been waiting for a good oppurtunity to offer this link.
http://www.teachingideas.co.uk/welcome/

Jeezus

iTrader: (4)

Lol.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

I'm not sure, did you just win an argument with yourself?

Yes, larger displacement motors typically produce more horsepower without working as hard (i.e.: requiring turbo charging, higher compression, higher revs, etc., etc.,) than smaller displacement motors.

So what?