Hitachi Bathurst sp twins 650ps
04-13-20, 07:48 AM
#276
matt
I’ll tell you a secret there’s no such thing as sp 3kai , it’s just 3kai
they have standard compressor covers, only difference between HT12s. And 3kai is they use billet 10/0 compressor wheel , 43.2mm inducer x 62mm exducer
standard HT12 41.65mm inducer x 57mm exducer
and all other components are standard HT12
good for 360 Hp max at wheels on 17psi
I’ll tell you a secret there’s no such thing as sp 3kai , it’s just 3kai
they have standard compressor covers, only difference between HT12s. And 3kai is they use billet 10/0 compressor wheel , 43.2mm inducer x 62mm exducer
standard HT12 41.65mm inducer x 57mm exducer
and all other components are standard HT12
good for 360 Hp max at wheels on 17psi
99 Spec Efini Twins (93+ RX-7)
https://www.rx7store.net/99_Spec_Efi...-sp-turbos.htm
Forgive me as they’re all marketed as SP high output turbos.
FWIW, I wonder if the 3KAI turbos have 360* bearings or 270*. There are not many running the 3KAI turbos. I think one guy has a build and he just bought them but no results yet.
Matt
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THE DOCTOR (04-13-20)
04-13-20, 02:04 PM
#278
I have the 99 turbos on my street ported engines, made a decent 363 to the wheels (dynojet) at 15psi and 11.1ish A/F..
using Howard Coleman’s thread on rotary cfm, fuel, etc and that 1.92 cfm per hp number, would that supposedly 12% air flow improvement with the SPs net me in the 400 to the wheels? I was planning to go 8374 single with the haltech, larger secondaries, but these kind of comparisons to show improvement are always fun to see. Like the M2 Sport Compact Car article way way back in the day to show incremental improvements.
using Howard Coleman’s thread on rotary cfm, fuel, etc and that 1.92 cfm per hp number, would that supposedly 12% air flow improvement with the SPs net me in the 400 to the wheels? I was planning to go 8374 single with the haltech, larger secondaries, but these kind of comparisons to show improvement are always fun to see. Like the M2 Sport Compact Car article way way back in the day to show incremental improvements.
04-13-20, 02:30 PM
#279
I've made 340-360rwhp on multiple dynos with stock twins, stock ports, some with mild ports at 14-16psi for nearly 20 years on multiple FDs. This thread is a debacle. Go trap 140mph on these twins and someone will take them seriously. Until then, its just overpriced hype.
04-13-20, 03:15 PM
#280
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...added-1104322/
There's a lot of dyno's out there boys. Let's just enjoy the results as they come in, and hope raceonly or someone else really tries to crank up these sp twins. I'd do it if I had the cash and time (I got neither).
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04-13-20, 03:23 PM
#281
Ah ha! For that, you need to consider Banzai's BPU dyno documentary thread:
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...added-1104322/
There's a lot of dyno's out there boys. Let's just enjoy the results as they come in, and hope raceonly or someone else really tries to crank up these sp twins. I'd do it if I had the cash and time (I got neither).
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...added-1104322/
There's a lot of dyno's out there boys. Let's just enjoy the results as they come in, and hope raceonly or someone else really tries to crank up these sp twins. I'd do it if I had the cash and time (I got neither).
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THE DOCTOR (04-13-20)
04-13-20, 05:03 PM
#282
Full Member
Thread Starter
RX7.COM | 93-95 Rx7 Turbo
99 Spec Efini Twins (93+ RX-7)
https://www.rx7store.net/99_Spec_Efi...-sp-turbos.htm
Forgive me as they’re all marketed as SP high output turbos.
FWIW, I wonder if the 3KAI turbos have 360* bearings or 270*. There are not many running the 3KAI turbos. I think one guy has a build and he just bought them but no results yet.
Matt
99 Spec Efini Twins (93+ RX-7)
https://www.rx7store.net/99_Spec_Efi...-sp-turbos.htm
Forgive me as they’re all marketed as SP high output turbos.
FWIW, I wonder if the 3KAI turbos have 360* bearings or 270*. There are not many running the 3KAI turbos. I think one guy has a build and he just bought them but no results yet.
Matt
New improved 3kai for high shaft speed and has a 360 deg thrust plate that support 270 deg underneath
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...0e325b0181.png
Ht12 with 270deg thrust bearing
All the Bathurst sp 650ps use the 3kai cores , great quality Japanese improvements by hitachi.
Japan’s hitachi engineers have improved the cores and turbine exhaust housings and centre dump housing outlet for performance reasons.
So ht12,HT10 have and disadvantage over the new improved Bathurst sp / 3kai versions
improvements are
higher amount of inconel (stops cracking)
larger turbine housings , larger A/R more top end flow
centre exhaust outlet improved, they divert the exhaust gas away from each other so that there is no stalling between transition from first to second turbine wheels .
No boost drop between transition.
only on Bathurst sp version .
its a combination of larger a/r compressor covers/wheel flowing more and no turbine wheel stalling.
on 3kai I see less boost drop than standard ht12 but not totally gone
Last edited by THE DOCTOR; 04-13-20 at 05:20 PM.
04-13-20, 05:15 PM
#283
Yes. You've said that a million times. That doesn't make anyone want to fork over $2k extra when there is no data to show what performance benefit it actually has.
Just like the BNR twins, Garrett engineers improved the turbine aero and shaft, as the GT28 components are better than stock Hitachi components.
Country of origin continues to have no relevance here.
Just like the BNR twins, Garrett engineers improved the turbine aero and shaft, as the GT28 components are better than stock Hitachi components.
Country of origin continues to have no relevance here.
04-13-20, 05:33 PM
#284
Full Member
Thread Starter
Yes. You've said that a million times. That doesn't make anyone want to fork over $2k extra when there is no data to show what performance benefit it actually has.
Just like the BNR twins, Garrett engineers improved the turbine aero and shaft, as the GT28 components are better than stock Hitachi components.
Country of origin continues to have no relevance here.
Just like the BNR twins, Garrett engineers improved the turbine aero and shaft, as the GT28 components are better than stock Hitachi components.
Country of origin continues to have no relevance here.
money to some person is not the issue
maybe moneys a problem for you .
i like the members to have the facts that helps then move forwards not backwards ,
some people think there saving going the cheaper way to upgrading there turbos ,
but I’ve seen it a 100 times they end up spending more in the long run .
I’m a person that goes for premium quality and reliability , and likes to do things once only.
so twincharger it’s clear your not interested sp or bnrs , now move on , you have said you peace .
Thanks for your feedback bye
.
Last edited by THE DOCTOR; 04-13-20 at 05:39 PM.
04-13-20, 06:11 PM
#285
You keep saying you provide facts and data. Then please address all of the questions about the misleading dyno charts you have posted so that you actually do what you say. (Don't deflect it and talk about Japanese engineering or put down your competition).
It was called out years ago on the very first page of this thread (and also about a month ago) that your torque vs rpm vs hp numbers don't make any sense whatsoever and there is no way you have data to support your claims of 600-650hp.
You are the one lacking the facts.
It's not about money, if you had substantiated your claims then I would have gladly handed over the funds. Heck, I've already spent more money on my own project than what yours cost because I want more power than BNR but don't trust your claims). It would have been easier and cheaper for me to go with your product had it been believable.
So go ahead, explain your 600+ hp claim and address the misleading torque vs rpm dyno chart that you posted as a sales pitch. But I expect you won't respond directly to it as per your usual approach of avoiding facts and going into a sales pitch.
It was called out years ago on the very first page of this thread (and also about a month ago) that your torque vs rpm vs hp numbers don't make any sense whatsoever and there is no way you have data to support your claims of 600-650hp.
You are the one lacking the facts.
It's not about money, if you had substantiated your claims then I would have gladly handed over the funds. Heck, I've already spent more money on my own project than what yours cost because I want more power than BNR but don't trust your claims). It would have been easier and cheaper for me to go with your product had it been believable.
So go ahead, explain your 600+ hp claim and address the misleading torque vs rpm dyno chart that you posted as a sales pitch. But I expect you won't respond directly to it as per your usual approach of avoiding facts and going into a sales pitch.
Last edited by TwinCharged RX7; 04-13-20 at 06:13 PM.
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djseven (04-13-20)
04-14-20, 05:55 AM
#286
Full Member
Thread Starter
You keep saying you provide facts and data. Then please address all of the questions about the misleading dyno charts you have posted so that you actually do what you say. (Don't deflect it and talk about Japanese engineering or put down your competition).
It was called out years ago on the very first page of this thread (and also about a month ago) that your torque vs rpm vs hp numbers don't make any sense whatsoever and there is no way you have data to support your claims of 600-650hp.
You are the one lacking the facts.
It's not about money, if you had substantiated your claims then I would have gladly handed over the funds. Heck, I've already spent more money on my own project than what yours cost because I want more power than BNR but don't trust your claims). It would have been easier and cheaper for me to go with your product had it been believable.
So go ahead, explain your 600+ hp claim and address the misleading torque vs rpm dyno chart that you posted as a sales pitch. But I expect you won't respond directly to it as per your usual approach of avoiding facts and going into a sales pitch.
It was called out years ago on the very first page of this thread (and also about a month ago) that your torque vs rpm vs hp numbers don't make any sense whatsoever and there is no way you have data to support your claims of 600-650hp.
You are the one lacking the facts.
It's not about money, if you had substantiated your claims then I would have gladly handed over the funds. Heck, I've already spent more money on my own project than what yours cost because I want more power than BNR but don't trust your claims). It would have been easier and cheaper for me to go with your product had it been believable.
So go ahead, explain your 600+ hp claim and address the misleading torque vs rpm dyno chart that you posted as a sales pitch. But I expect you won't respond directly to it as per your usual approach of avoiding facts and going into a sales pitch.
do you agree?
Stock HT12 / HT10 are rated 400ps
3kai 440ps
bathurst sp 650ps
15% lose through driveline
400 x .85 =340ps at wheels 14.5 psi at 6800rpm
440 x .85 = 374 ps at wheels 17.5 psi at 6800rpm
650 x .85 = 552ps at wheels 25 psi at 7800rpm
Last edited by THE DOCTOR; 04-14-20 at 06:12 AM.
04-14-20, 09:36 AM
#287
If that's the basic math behind this then it's even worse then I thought.
First, bigger wheels do usually flow more, but it's not linear and there are many other variables.
Second, and this is the part where you still show no data. You again simply claim yours are rated for 650. I agree, it makes sense to factor in driveline loss is you are rating power them at the engine. But where is the data that proves 650?
Where does the 650 figure come from? If you are just drawing conclusions by extrapolating compressor size percentage increase vs stock, that is not how it works. Basic math isn't how you calculate this type of thing.
And yet again, you simply ignore the ask to address the misleading dyno figures you posted. Like a politician, ignore the question and hope it goes away.
First, bigger wheels do usually flow more, but it's not linear and there are many other variables.
Second, and this is the part where you still show no data. You again simply claim yours are rated for 650. I agree, it makes sense to factor in driveline loss is you are rating power them at the engine. But where is the data that proves 650?
Where does the 650 figure come from? If you are just drawing conclusions by extrapolating compressor size percentage increase vs stock, that is not how it works. Basic math isn't how you calculate this type of thing.
And yet again, you simply ignore the ask to address the misleading dyno figures you posted. Like a politician, ignore the question and hope it goes away.
04-14-20, 01:38 PM
#289
Haha. Ok, tomorrow I'm going to make turbos that are rated for 900. Just multiply that by 85% and bingo, 765 to the wheels. Trust me, I factored in driveline loss to my magic 900 number, so therefore it's true.
Now give me your money, the competition sucks and didn't have it engineered in Japan.
Now give me your money, the competition sucks and didn't have it engineered in Japan.
04-14-20, 01:41 PM
#290
I don't understand why we're arguing about the power rating of these turbos. Other turbo manufacturers provide similarly contrived power ratings, which are usually out of context for rotaries.
If these things can make 500+whp at 25psi, then they're a whole step ahead of my expectations for BNRs.
If these things can make 500+whp at 25psi, then they're a whole step ahead of my expectations for BNRs.
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THE DOCTOR (04-14-20)
04-14-20, 01:58 PM
#291
Agree. It would be awesome. He just needs to provide real data and not misleading dyno graphs (which he then ignores questions about).
Until there is some decent data, it's a risk to unknowing members of the community, who could possibly waste thousands of dollars. These get advertised as 650, anyone that doesn't see this thread or have history with fd's may actually believe it.
If these actually make 500 to the wheels reliably and have the same spool as stock, that's fantastic and they would fly off the shelves. But BNR can make upwards of 450, so people should know whether the $2k premium is actually worth it. I'm sure for some, a proven extra 50hp is worth $2k. But there have been many times on this forum where money is wasted on vendors that don't backup their claims.
Until there is some decent data, it's a risk to unknowing members of the community, who could possibly waste thousands of dollars. These get advertised as 650, anyone that doesn't see this thread or have history with fd's may actually believe it.
If these actually make 500 to the wheels reliably and have the same spool as stock, that's fantastic and they would fly off the shelves. But BNR can make upwards of 450, so people should know whether the $2k premium is actually worth it. I'm sure for some, a proven extra 50hp is worth $2k. But there have been many times on this forum where money is wasted on vendors that don't backup their claims.
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djseven (04-14-20)
04-14-20, 02:20 PM
#292
I don't understand why we're arguing about the power rating of these turbos. Other turbo manufacturers provide similarly contrived power ratings, which are usually out of context for rotaries.
If these things can make 500+whp at 25psi, then they're a whole step ahead of my expectations for BNRs.
If these things can make 500+whp at 25psi, then they're a whole step ahead of my expectations for BNRs.
04-14-20, 05:45 PM
#293
Full Member
Thread Starter
If that's the basic math behind this then it's even worse then I thought.
First, bigger wheels do usually flow more, but it's not linear and there are many other variables.
Second, and this is the part where you still show no data. You again simply claim yours are rated for 650. I agree, it makes sense to factor in driveline loss is you are rating power them at the engine. But where is the data that proves 650?
Where does the 650 figure come from? If you are just drawing conclusions by extrapolating compressor size percentage increase vs stock, that is not how it works. Basic math isn't how you calculate this type of thing.
And yet again, you simply ignore the ask to address the misleading dyno figures you posted. Like a politician, ignore the question and hope it goes away.
First, bigger wheels do usually flow more, but it's not linear and there are many other variables.
Second, and this is the part where you still show no data. You again simply claim yours are rated for 650. I agree, it makes sense to factor in driveline loss is you are rating power them at the engine. But where is the data that proves 650?
Where does the 650 figure come from? If you are just drawing conclusions by extrapolating compressor size percentage increase vs stock, that is not how it works. Basic math isn't how you calculate this type of thing.
And yet again, you simply ignore the ask to address the misleading dyno figures you posted. Like a politician, ignore the question and hope it goes away.
give me your math on what the power at the fly wheel and at the wheels are ???
I don’t know why I’m entertaining your fake facts and try to discredit any info I do give .
But I guess there will be a day when someone in USA will try these and all your credibility on this forum will be like rice racing .
race only is doing it in Australia.
hub results coming soon and then his is going to e85 the week after .
Your day of bullshit fake info is coming to and end soon .
maybe you will change your user name to
foolish rx7 when you disappear and come back . Ha
04-14-20, 06:04 PM
#294
Ok. I don't have to give any math because I'm not selling products to anyone. I'll happily eat my words when you show us 600+ hp as claimed by your magic numbers multiplied by drivetrain loss. But that is unlikely to happen.
Again, you provide no response to questions about your misleading dyno figures and throw insults at me. Address the questions, why does your claimed power come with a dyno that show rpm and torque that do not support it?
Keep redirecting and not answering the questions. That will surely help your sales.
I'm not providing any data because I'm one of the consumers. Feel free to point out a post I've made that actually has fake information. Tons of dynos support the BNR claims of 450+ (and have matching torque and rpm on the chart). And your math on HP estimations is rudimentary and not accurate. Nothing false about what I'm saying.
Again, you provide no response to questions about your misleading dyno figures and throw insults at me. Address the questions, why does your claimed power come with a dyno that show rpm and torque that do not support it?
Keep redirecting and not answering the questions. That will surely help your sales.
I'm not providing any data because I'm one of the consumers. Feel free to point out a post I've made that actually has fake information. Tons of dynos support the BNR claims of 450+ (and have matching torque and rpm on the chart). And your math on HP estimations is rudimentary and not accurate. Nothing false about what I'm saying.
04-14-20, 09:54 PM
#295
Full Member
Thread Starter
Ok. I don't have to give any math because I'm not selling products to anyone. I'll happily eat my words when you show us 600+ hp as claimed by your magic numbers multiplied by drivetrain loss. But that is unlikely to happen.
Again, you provide no response to questions about your misleading dyno figures and throw insults at me. Address the questions, why does your claimed power come with a dyno that show rpm and torque that do not support it?
Keep redirecting and not answering the questions. That will surely help your sales.
I'm not providing any data because I'm one of the consumers. Feel free to point out a post I've made that actually has fake information. Tons of dynos support the BNR claims of 450+ (and have matching torque and rpm on the chart). And your math on HP estimations is rudimentary and not accurate. Nothing false about what I'm saying.
Again, you provide no response to questions about your misleading dyno figures and throw insults at me. Address the questions, why does your claimed power come with a dyno that show rpm and torque that do not support it?
Keep redirecting and not answering the questions. That will surely help your sales.
I'm not providing any data because I'm one of the consumers. Feel free to point out a post I've made that actually has fake information. Tons of dynos support the BNR claims of 450+ (and have matching torque and rpm on the chart). And your math on HP estimations is rudimentary and not accurate. Nothing false about what I'm saying.
the graph is true fact that the Bathurst sp 650 ps twins make 400kw /540hp at the wheels, which is a world record for hitachi sequential twins ,regardless of rpm or torque requirements.
Lot of people post graphs with no torque, no boost etc that can be fake and questionable.
but now all of a sudden my graph is fake ha , if you have any knowledge which you have stated you haven’t , you would look at boost graph vs power and it’s all you require to see that the graph is real.
but what would know your just and consumer that googles his info and think it’s all true , my info comes from practical testing.
.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...b0a872e4c9.png
Last edited by THE DOCTOR; 04-14-20 at 11:13 PM.
04-15-20, 12:18 AM
#296
As BlueT2 pointed out, the rpm and torque on your graphs do not correlate. Now that is basic math. Horsepower and torque are tied together. You chart suggest that the standard formula is not true.
It was pointed out on the very first page of this thread. Go read it, I'm guessing you don't understand the concept which is why you have never addressed it.
It's not "my" math, it's actual proven mathematics and physics. Horsepower and torque generally make sense on the dyno charts we see on BNR, single turbos, stock, etc... but you posted a dyno chart that makes absolutely no sense and still won't explain it or even respond to the questions. You then base all your horsepower claims on this, which is simply wrong.
And I'm guessing you still won't even though we've asked 100 times.
I'm looking forward to seeing the new dyno results. It's will be interesting to see whether these actually break 500hp at the wheels.
It was pointed out on the very first page of this thread. Go read it, I'm guessing you don't understand the concept which is why you have never addressed it.
It's not "my" math, it's actual proven mathematics and physics. Horsepower and torque generally make sense on the dyno charts we see on BNR, single turbos, stock, etc... but you posted a dyno chart that makes absolutely no sense and still won't explain it or even respond to the questions. You then base all your horsepower claims on this, which is simply wrong.
And I'm guessing you still won't even though we've asked 100 times.
I'm looking forward to seeing the new dyno results. It's will be interesting to see whether these actually break 500hp at the wheels.
04-15-20, 04:39 AM
#297
Just bought these turbos along with the Spirit R downpipe and carbon air + intercooler for my Spirit R Type B. Only heard good things about Sasha and his turbos from mates around AUS. Brand new with warranties too so can't complain seems legit. Mechanic is going to install and tune when they arrive.
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THE DOCTOR (04-15-20)
04-15-20, 08:10 AM
#298
Just bought these turbos along with the Spirit R downpipe and carbon air + intercooler for my Spirit R Type B. Only heard good things about Sasha and his turbos from mates around AUS. Brand new with warranties too so can't complain seems legit. Mechanic is going to install and tune when they arrive.
Matt
04-15-20, 12:18 PM
#299
Engine rebuild with dowelling, race apex seals and turbo port
Turbo package from Sasha fdmotorsports
Solenoids, pressure reg, 4 Ignition coil, radiator, e85 pump, haltech + sensors and tune
Mods that came with the car that still on- autoexehaust, RE AST, cusco springs
Exterior is stock with optional fogs + tint
Interior is stock + infotainment that came with car
Still waiting for parts to come in but don't think we will be pushing the turbos to the limit, a more conservative tune for now.
Goals are to keep it the OG sequential twins system just a bit more upgraded.
Turbo package from Sasha fdmotorsports
Solenoids, pressure reg, 4 Ignition coil, radiator, e85 pump, haltech + sensors and tune
Mods that came with the car that still on- autoexehaust, RE AST, cusco springs
Exterior is stock with optional fogs + tint
Interior is stock + infotainment that came with car
Still waiting for parts to come in but don't think we will be pushing the turbos to the limit, a more conservative tune for now.
Goals are to keep it the OG sequential twins system just a bit more upgraded.
