DamonB

Damon, we'll need to teach you how to "cheat" in stock class

Again keep in mind I am running stock class so the only tools I have to work with are the front bar, shock settings and tire pressures. Everything else is stock.

SleepR1

Damon,

Sorry about the last post...I meant to hit "quote" and clicked on "edit", so now my response is in your post...

It's early, and I haven't had my pot of Espresso Roast Starbucks yet, so I apologize for my inadvertent use of my Moderator "Wonder Twin Powers"

Could you repost your opinion regarding your experience with soft vs stiff suspension setups? It might serve to further confuse everyone on suspension tuning

Thanks!

Orange!FD

MODERATOR RUN AMOK! HE'S WRECKING THE FORUM!

SleepR1

Yeah, sometimes I wonder why Ryan appointed me...I'll do my best to keep from screwing up on the computer from now on!

DamonB

Dammit! I knew I wasn't crazy. I was going "Where the f*ck did it go????" I will recompose it this evening if the moderator promises not to flush it into space again

SleepR1

I promise, I won't flush your post down cyberspace again

DamonB

Am I on record this time?

I was going to mention the differences for me autoxing as compared to track racing. In autox the corners are much slower and tighter and there are many fast transitions (slaloms and another corner every time you hit the gas). In track racing you want the car very neutral so as to make it easy to drive and stay out of the weeds. In autox, my feelings are to sacrifice everything for ultimate grip. Everything. The car may be twitchy and less forgiving but you only have to keep it on the course for a minute or two at a time as opposed to lap after lap on a race track.

I basically ran about 20 events with the same shocks, tires and several alignment settings so I had a very good baseline to begin experimenting when I added the front bar. I have tried several setups with my Tripoint front bar at timed test and tune sessions; the stopwatch never lies. Keep in mind I am forced by rules to run stock springs as well; what this car really needs is higher spring rates but you guys running them can attest to that.

I run the bar with the droplinks at the third hole from the back on fast courses and the second hole from the back on slow courses (by coincidence I know better, more experienced drivers than I who revealed later that's where they ended up as well). You want to run the bar as hard as you can without giving up front grip and pushing. I like the car to point NOW at turn in. Long story short at the cornering speeds I see in autox going stiffer than the second hole makes the car push. I am sure this would be too soft for the racetrack where your speeds are much higher and therefore your weight transfer across the chassis is much higher; you'd want a stiffer bar. I find the car more comfortable and easier to drive with the stiffer setting, but also slower. It is just too stiff at autox speeds to allow the front end to work. Again on a high speed track you will have much more weight transfer and this will demand a stiffer bar. Here lies the beauty in having a choice in setups: I can change the car for the course I plan to run.

As for shocks, keep in mind what they and the springs really do. Springs support the weight of the chassis and resist roll, dive and squat; shocks effect the rate of the weight transfer of the chassis along with damping the springs. A spring reacts with the same amount of force regardless of the velocity of the displacement, a shock reacts with a force directly proportional to the velocity of the displacement. What this means is that typically in transition you feel the shocks and in steady state you feel the springs and bars. Keep that in mind when tuning; is your trouble entry, cornering or exit?

I run my front Konis at full hard or within half a turn of full hard. I run the rears fully soft. I need the softer front bar to let the car work in slow corners but use the stiff front shocks to "prop" the car up in slaloms and entry. In a sweeper the chassis is going to eventually lean as anyone who saw me carrying the inside front in the air in Houston can attest. Running the rear shocks stiffer would hurt my launch out as the rear tires would not accept the weight transfer as readily. Again keep in mind I am pulling hard from the slow autox corners in second gear so the rear squats a lot under big power changes; I need to pick up the throttle as early as possible to get on boost and launch the car out. A stiffer rear shock would again help me fight some of the chassis movement, but at the expense of rear grip under acceleration. I try to drive neatly but it is not unknown for me to spin the rears at late mid corner so as to gain RPM before exit and get on the turbos sooner. At the same time if your tires are spinning you're not going anywhere so as always it's a tradeoff.

I like the car on course very much with this setup but there are some things that can get me into trouble. Since the front bar is softer very high speed turns get me lots of chassis lean, so much so that at one event I put the outside front on the bumpstop trail braking from a sweeping turn into a much tighter one at just over 90 mph (this was a VERY fast course) the car of course instantly pushed into the marbles and in recovering the car I then bounced off the opposite bumpstop as I then had to chase the rear end while driving through ALL the marbles now. I got it back under me after a couple bobbles but it is the only time I have ever puckered behind the wheel. And those who know me have seen some entertaining antics a few times

SleepR1

Well done, Damon...

I really like my setup on high speed stuff, but it reacts too slowly through autocross and slaloms races...it sounds like I need those Bilstein HDs, since my stock Showa R1 shocks might be too soft for the autocross circuit?

FWIW, my suspension setup consists of H&R springs, stock Show R1 shocks, Eibach sway bars fr/rr--rear sway bar set stiff, Tri Point fr sway bar mount reinforcer.

Tires for open-track events are Hoosier R3S03 245/45-17 front, and 275/40-17 rear; wheels are SSR Comps 8.5 x 17 front and 9. 5 x 17 rear, 42-mm offset. When the Hoosiers cord out, I go to road tires--255/40-17 Yokohama AVS Intermediates mounted on 9 x 17 SSR Integral A2, 45-mm offset.

Pressures are set to 30 psi cold fronts, and 35 psi cold rears for Hoosiers, and 33 psi cold for the Yokohamas.

Sorry, I can't share my alignment settings...don't want to give all my secrets away...

DamonB

Manny I would always opt for flexibility so given a choice I will pick something I can adjust. I know a lot of people like the Bilsteins but I would go with adjustable shocks (the Bilsteins aren't, right?). The Tokico will not handle stiffer than stock springs. The Koni certainly will as well as the GAB R if you can somehow find some. Mainly I went Koni because I can have them custom valved as well; plan to do that to my fronts over the winter.

The Koni at full hard will rattle your eyeballs but feels wonderful at speed. That's the other reason I like adjustables on my daily driver: full soft is softer than the stock R1 and is nice around town, but once the slicks go on at the track I can instantly change the shock settings and tune them through the day.

At Divisionals this past weekend we were the first run group in the first heat. It rained right up until we started and then quit. We would get three runs in about an hour and a half. First run completely wet. Second run wet some places, dry some places. Third run completely dry. I ran three different setups in an hour and a half. First thing I did was pull all the shock out for the wet and if I had time I would have disconnected both bars. It was literally like driving in oil as the asphalt had been sealed recently and was slicker than snot in the rain. For the damp run I put some shock back into the front but not much. The dry portion of the track was the fast part and the car moved around a lot; disconcerting but fast for the tradeoffs I was faced with. Third run in the dry was with my "normal" settings and the grip was actually the best I have ever seen. Weird going from no grip to tons in just over an hour. Sunday we were of course first out again and were blessed with everyone's rubber from the day before; it was beautiful.

SleepR1

The Bilstein HDs are "self-adjusting", so that's perfect for a guy like me

Honestly I'm much too lazy to do what you did during your autocross with rain, damp, and dry...

Sometimes there is NO TIME to adjust the equipment. Such was the case at my May 9/10 2002 Mid Ohio PCA drivers ed.

Thursday it rained off-and-on all day, so I kept my 255/40-17 Yokohama AVS I's on. Mid Ohio is 2.5 miles per lap--we had wet, damp, and dry conditions all in one lap! Since there was no way to adjust for all three conditions, the driver had to adjust his driving style to suit the conditions. It was tricky finding traction, lemme tell ya!

Friday, we had sunny weather so, the Hoosiers went on, and we kicked some Porsche butt http://www.opentracking.com/emmanuel_lozano,_93_rx7.htm

Sometimes the equipment adjusts FOR YOU WHEN YOU LEAST EXPECT IT! That's exactly what happened on Friday, when my RF sway bar connection BROKE going into Turn 13 (fast left-hander). Lap after lap, I'd exit that turn practically sideways. Near the end of the session, I heard a "thunk" going into 13, followed by sudden VIOLENT OVERSTEER. The Porsche 993 that I was dicing with, backed way off when he saw me go into a lurid slide...which I saved (thanks to the big 275/40-17 Hoosiers in back!). I pitted in, got the car on the jacks, and found my RF sway bar connection had completely broken away.

I tried to drive the two remaining afternoon sessions with a disconnected front sway bar, but the car was too much of a handful at speed (even with larger rear tires in back), so we packed up and went home

The event wasn't a total wash, as I managed to turn my personal best laptimes on Friday morning (turbos like the cool air) with 1:49.30 (which means nothing to you all except for those who've been to Mid Ohio)

DamonB

Yikes Don't know who was more scared; you or the Porsche behind. What kind of front bar and where exactly did the link break?

SleepR1

We (the Porsche racer and I) were both scared out of our wits, but we laughed about it later...

The front sway bar is an Eibach, 32-mm tubular. The right-hand bolt pulled out of the sway bar tube. Apparently Eibach uses a "fusion weld" at those connections? I've since had both bolts TIG welded into the sway bar tube, so those endlink bolts aren't coming out again!