jimlab

Let's say money is not an object, but that the use the car will see makes Penske coilovers with remote reservoirs not only overkill, but a huge waste of money. Which would you choose?

A'pexi N1?



Mazdaspeed?



HKS?



Main goals are ride height adjustability, and not just a little. A full-threaded shock body would be the best solution, which is the A'pexi N1.

Damping adjustability. I'd rather have click stops than a continuously adjustable system like the Koni, and double adjustable would (obviously) be better. The A'pexi has 13 steps, I think I read that the Mazdaspeed has 10, can't find information on the HKS Hiper Damper.

How about replacement availability. What happens if one fails. Can you buy just one, or do you have to buy a complete set?

Does the system replace the pillow mounts? The Mazdaspeed one does not, it appears, but the A'pexi and HKS systems do.

And finally, spring rate options. Can you replace the springs with different rate springs? Only the A'pexi looks like it might use an Eibach ERS spring.

Does anyone have any *good* pictures of these coilovers? Any comments on ownership, installation, performance? I have not been able to find anyone on the net in the reasonably good searching I've done who has pictures of an install, or of the raw components.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm leaning towards the Hiper Dampers, since they match my color scheme, which is probably semi-lame, but if there isn't something that differentiates between the different kits, then it's valid criteria. On the other hand, the A'pexi has a full threaded body, and I do't want to get them on the car just to find out that I don't have enough sleeve to adjust the height where I want it.

The Mazdaspeed kit looks sort of like repainted Koni double-adjustables, if you ask me. Anyone know if it's completely proprietary to Mazdaspeed?

Thanks!!

HedgeHog

None of the above. For the best performance and value, a properly valved set of single adjustables will do wonders. A lot of the recent winners in the SCCA/Tire Rack National Tour (held @ Bremerton) won using singles.

For local (to you) service, go to Fordahl Motorsports and inquire about the JRZ single adjustables. I think they're $400-500 per corner.

Alternatively, Guy Ankeny at Ankeny Racing is very knowledgeable about setting up FDs (he did the suspension on the winning FD when he worked at TriPoint). He specializes in Penskes. IIRC, the Penske singles are $350-450 per corner.

Springs will add a little to the equation but very little relative to the above. These, IMO, will be superior to the JDM stuff. In fact, I think the JDM ppl regard these (and Ohlins) as superior to the Tein, A'PEXi, HKS, etc...

HTH....

jimlab

OK, let's say that I'm not a competitive racer, won't be tracking or auto-crossing, and am more concerned with street performance, adjustability, replacement (should the worst happen), and occasional drag racing. Do I really need the best of the best (of the best, with honors)?

I don't want to spend more than $2,000 on a suspension setup that I won't be taking advantage of. Here's what I have currently that I'm selling...



I'm already at single adjustable, but I did not like what appears to be a lack of height adjustment range with the GC conversion kit for my Konis, and more importantly, didn't like the fact that when the suspension is unloaded, the springs are loose. I bought a set of helper springs and adapters from True Choice to go with the 2.5" ERS springs in the GC kit, but they don't work well with the rubber gaskets on the GC pillow mounts at the top, and at the bottom, the adapter (between the helper and the main spring) interferes with and contacts the threaded sleeve.

I want a ground-up designed kit with no mismatched parts, and I don't want my springs coming loose when the suspension is unloaded. The A'pexi N1 seems to be the best bet, and I can get them for just over $1,900. The Hiper Dampers are only marginally more expensive, and match my color scheme better.

This is more cosmetic than anything else, and any perceived or real benefit of a better setup is going to be lost on me. Given that, which would you recommend?

Brad

Well, for what its worth (not much) the only other FD I've ridden in besides mine (stock) had the Apex'i N1. All I can really say is it FELT right. Made the car feel much more balanced than stock...

jimlab

It's funny, but it's the little things that bother me. Although I *know* that the Koni/GC Coilover configuration works, the fact that the springs don't keep pressure on the pillow mount at full shock extension (which would probably never be a condition found on the car unless you had it on jackstands) bothered me, mostly because it was a surprise.

Mark Valskis used GAB shocks and GC coilovers, but his springs are 2" longer. Nick (N-Tech) assured me that these are the correct springs, and that springs 2" longer would make the car 2" taller (stands to reason) if the spring rate were maintained, and if it weren't, you wouldn't be getting the benefit of better control.

I just want a kit that looks like a package, and since my suspension pieces are all polished, and my colors are black and purple, the HKS kit seems like as good a solution as any. I just like the wider range of adjustability of the N1 (and since they're roughly the same cost, that makes the decision that much more difficult) because the entire shock body is threaded. I'm assuming they know more about it than I do, and the HKS kit has ample adjustment for height.

Pretty bad when all you really care about is which coilover kit is prettier...

HedgeHog

Jim,

That was my point. You CAN have a custom valved single adjustable for less than the A'PEXi setup. These should come w/ threaded bodies which is better than a threaded sleeve. I am comparing what's available w/ the baseline of the HKS HiperDampers and the A'PEXi N1's.

Also, if you lower the the spring perch too much w/ a stock size shock body, you'll be reducing the allowable shock travel. This may bottom the piston out. To rememdy that, one can get a shortened shock body/piston to match.

Seriously, call up Fordahl and see how much it'll be. I'm sure it'll be close to or cheaper than the JDM stuff. PLUS, they can rebuild it for you when needed, let's see HKS or A'PEXi do that (easily or cheaply).

BTW, I used to think my Koni/GC/Eibach combo was the cat's meow....I'm seeing their short-comings now. The KONI yellows are under-damped for the 450-550 lbs/in spring rate.

Brad

I've got an idea, Jim. Why dont you buy the N1 setup, try it out, decide you dont like it (or want to try the HKS), and then sell it to me for $1500. Like you said, you cant make up your mind, so again your loss is my gain...

I like it when you cant make up your mind.

jimlab

So you figured out the pattern already?

jimlab

I visited both web sites and neither had dick for information.

HedgeHog

Haha...forgot how to use the telephone already?

They won't have FD specific info so talking w/ them is prolly best.

JRZ

Penske

Good luck....wonder which setup Michel (Mr. Overboost) is going with. Group buy? The above 2 only needed 3 ppl to buy-in. :P

1FooknTiteFD

I have the mazdaspeed coilovers and I love them. They are 4 way stiffness adjustable, and also ride height adjustable. Handling is a lot better and for the price I think they are the best of the bunch. My friend has the HKS one. They are 38 way stiffness adjustable and come with pillow ball mounts. However, if you are not a good driver, I think that it's not worth your time to buy any of them, but to settle for tockicos or eibachs. Because unless you are a good driver you wouldn't feel the difference between any of the three. But in any case, if I had my mind set on any of the three I think the mazdaspeed is the best for the price.

jimlab

Neat...



All I see on the Penske site is $$$$. They don't even list a single adjustable system. The list prices I saw for single adjustable on the site you listed previously was $470 a corner. That's the shock only, of course. The spring, collar, bump stop, and everything else is additional cost. Steve Cirian has a great break-down on what his $4,000+ Penske shocks with remote reservoirs cost him on his web site. Just the shocks alone put it over the cost of the HKS Hyper Damper and Apex'i N1 systems.

And yes, I have forgotten how to use the phone.

jimlab

Thanks for the info. Your .sig lists the Hyper Damper Max II... is that any different than the standard Hyper Damper, or is that just the full "name" of the system?

jimlab

Anyone have some *good* pictures of the HKS system? They're not shown in my HKS catalog, and I haven't been able to find anything but the often-copied grainy thumnail on anyone's site. You'd think someone would be proud enough of them to put them in a web site, but no search I've done has turned up anything.

Thanks!

coolantleak

I know aren't looking at Koni's, but tri-point can build you a set with double adjustable Koni's, with coilovers, at your choice of spring rates, for less than 2k. Feel free to email me at alfman@mindspring.com if you want some more info. Ari at rx7.com indicated that he can not get the N1 suspension, he has had a set on order for 6 months. I hope he wasnt yanking my chain. With the mazdaspeed, you get the spring rate that they all have, which seems really really soft for aggressive driving. getting info on HKS shocks was like pulling teeth, and when i finally got some, i felt like the people were just guessing, so I did not order them. Best of luck.

BTW, whenever I see KFC commercials, I think of you Jim

-Alfie

Trout

Jim,

It would be a little over your $2K buget at $2395 but I've had the M2/Advanced Design coil overs on my car for 3 weeks now and love them. I live in New Orleans where the streets are horrible but I have no more bottoming troubles and my teeth rattle less (last set up was Tokico with RB springs). The handling is awesome and I've barely played with the adjustments yet. It puts the power downn much better coming out of turns and doesn't seem to float as much at turn in. Should be outstanding once I get your bushings on there and get some track time to play with the settings.

I do 99% street driving and even with 550/450 lb/in springs it rides no worse than an R1. M2 said I could try 450/375 for a more streetable ride. As for ride height, I'm running 25 in. from ground to top of wheel well at all four corners (+- 0.25 in. for balancing) and there are many inches of thread left for lowering it more. These are overkill for what I do but I already wasted money once and knew I wouldn't be disappointed with these.

I decided on these after trying to find info. to no avail on the others you mentioned. At least I know these can be rebuilt/replaced easily. I was afraid of a Japanesse kit that if you damage one, you might only be able to buy them as a set that is if they're still in production.

Availability was a problem but it looks like production has stepped up for M2. I ordered mine on March 3 (at the time the price was $2095 and it was honored without my asking) and finally got them July 6. At that time I was on top of a list of 13, I just saw where they are down to 4 left on that list.

Good luck in your quest, Jack

lone wolf

You should think about getting the GAB coilover set. If I didn't already do my suspension, I would have gotten those. I think they were like $1300 for the whole set.

HedgeHog

FYI...
Discussion from the SCCA Forum

jimlab

Considering my use of the car, the less spent the better. I just don't want a coilover made from mismatched parts from several vendors. I want a ground-up designed coil-over from one vendor, with good adjustability. Single or double is not really important, just that the car can be ride height and corner balance adjusted, and that there's some option for replacement without buying an entire kit. They don't need to be rebuildable, but I'd like to have to only buy one if something happens.

I'll have to look into some of the options you've listed. I don't want to spend $2,000+ on my springs, since there's no ROI in my car's future. In other words, they're not going to pay for themselves.

HighRev

Where can you get the N1 Pro's for $1,900? The Store sells em for $2,100.

DomFD3S

Jim, are you excluding other brands such as Endless/Zeal, Ohlins, etc.? I'm not including the TEINS because I've seen them and certain parts of the coilover will display signs of corrosion over time. The Endless Coilover is one of the finest coilovers I've seen it terms of quality. This is of course, IF you are including other brands.

jimlab

I haven't excluded them, I was just listing some of the more readily available (and therefore pre-tested by people like yourselves, hopefully) options. I don't want to be a guinea pig either.

And the Tein coilovers make me want to puke. There's no way I'm putting a GREEN coilover on my car.

jimlab

Mark Valskis has an interesting write up on his choice of shock and spring...

http://www.geocities.com/valspeed/shocks_springs.html

He's using the Bilstein single tube shocks and a GC coilover kit with 8" springs, front and rear, at 400# and 300# respectively. His springs also extend all the way to the pillow mount when at full extension, eliminating the need for helper springs.



Close up...



Not a ground-up design, since it combines the components from two companies, but at least the gap between the spring and the pillow mount was eliminated. That really bothered me when I put the springs on for the first time and they were "too short".