Want to get some new coilovers
Want to get some new coilovers
12-26-07, 09:24 AM
#4
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Tein Flex is a good set for street and track, you can adjust height and rebound...on their softest setting they are actually fine for street and on stiffer settings welcoming to track drivers. Tein also sells the electronic control units for that set where you can control dampening from inside your cabin.
http://www.rx7store.net/product_p/teinflex.htm
http://www.rx7store.net/product_p/teinflex.htm
12-27-07, 02:46 PM
#5
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A popular budget set up seems to be Ground Control coilover kit with KYB AGX shocks. A couple of friends have it and it seems to work nicely. It's streetable but still good on the track.
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12-29-07, 09:24 AM
#8
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Anyway you look at it for a decent coilover setup you will spend over a grand.
12-30-07, 09:49 AM
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12-30-07, 02:33 PM
#13
Yes on stance we've done
10k/9k for the more streetable FD's.
Also doing the math with Konis, Ground Controls, and uppermounts, just doesn't add up.
The stances are still a better value at close to $1100.00 shipped depending on your area.
I remember back in the day GC's were close to $600 for the FD. Add that to the cost of the Konis and it's expensive.
Ground Control: $599.00
http://www.ground-control-store.com/...tion.php/II=42
Koni Yellows (TireRack): $159x4 = 636.00 +25 shipping = $660.00
Now figure you get a small discount on the GC setup and it's around $600.00 shipped.
Barebones and still needs to be assembled I'm looking at around $1260.00 for this setup.
You lose suspension stroke as you lower the vehicle, GC prices don't include helper/tender springs. That just adds to the price.
Stance GR+: Retail $1329.00, your club discount gets this close to $1100.00 and it's fully assembled top to bottom. Hope this helps shed some light.
Rishie
10k/9k for the more streetable FD's.
Also doing the math with Konis, Ground Controls, and uppermounts, just doesn't add up.
The stances are still a better value at close to $1100.00 shipped depending on your area.
I remember back in the day GC's were close to $600 for the FD. Add that to the cost of the Konis and it's expensive.
Ground Control: $599.00
http://www.ground-control-store.com/...tion.php/II=42
Koni Yellows (TireRack): $159x4 = 636.00 +25 shipping = $660.00
Now figure you get a small discount on the GC setup and it's around $600.00 shipped.
Barebones and still needs to be assembled I'm looking at around $1260.00 for this setup.
You lose suspension stroke as you lower the vehicle, GC prices don't include helper/tender springs. That just adds to the price.
Stance GR+: Retail $1329.00, your club discount gets this close to $1100.00 and it's fully assembled top to bottom. Hope this helps shed some light.
Rishie
12-31-07, 03:17 AM
#14
The main thing I like about Koni's is that you can convert them to capable race shocks, which none of the major coilover brands seem to offer. However, that does require spending much more $$.
Equation for the street is: Major coilover brands are cheaper than GC/Koni
Upgraded GC/Koni is cheaper than buying a street coilover, then buying a race coilover, if you're looking to go that far with your suspension. It all depends on what you want.
Equation for the street is: Major coilover brands are cheaper than GC/Koni
Upgraded GC/Koni is cheaper than buying a street coilover, then buying a race coilover, if you're looking to go that far with your suspension. It all depends on what you want.
01-01-08, 11:16 AM
#15
The main thing I like about Koni's is that you can convert them to capable race shocks, which none of the major coilover brands seem to offer. However, that does require spending much more $$.
Equation for the street is: Major coilover brands are cheaper than GC/Koni
Upgraded GC/Koni is cheaper than buying a street coilover, then buying a race coilover, if you're looking to go that far with your suspension. It all depends on what you want.
Equation for the street is: Major coilover brands are cheaper than GC/Koni
Upgraded GC/Koni is cheaper than buying a street coilover, then buying a race coilover, if you're looking to go that far with your suspension. It all depends on what you want.
Coilovers are easier to install, and hold the suspension compressed when you lift the car *can benefit with easier wheel removal, etc etc*
Not trying to put down any one on going the goundcontrol/koni route, but you just gotta do a little more homework when purchasing/building up your suspension that route.. where as you can choose from different coilover systems that have different driving styles already in mind *Tein superstreets for basic coilvers, flex for more aggressive street/track, tein super drifts for the obious*
01-01-08, 11:25 AM
#16
Unless you can independently adjust compression and rebound, it's not a race shock to me. No sub $4k coilover that I know of can do that. Anything that has 16-way, 32-way or any of those pointless adjustment settings yells street shock to me. On the track, you need to fine tune your weight balance, and adjusting both compression and rebound at the same time throws that away. Sure, you'll be in the ballpark, but you'll never get to where you are.
My point is that it's cheaper to go with the upgraded Koni route than it is to go with a Tein Flex at first, and then realize it's not enough at the big boy level, and then have to buy something like Ohlins/Penske/Koni Race Shocks/Bilstein PSS9/JRZ/Moton. Hell, at the Improved Touring level, double adjustable Koni's max out the restriction and are the cheapest way to do it. Match the fact that you can custom valve those shocks and you have a winner that matches the performance of many more expensive shocks. Note that no serious racer runs any of the popular Japanese coilovers.
I find it funny that people follow the tuner aftermarket for racing parts, when they should be following the racing market. Makes much more sense, no? Then again, when I buy car parts, it's to prepare for serious racing. You may want something different, like something slightly capable on the street, with the ease of picking an already matched shock/spring. In that case, I guess a street coilover is acceptable, but you wouldn't catch me driving on those.
Have you seen the shock dynos on some of the Japanese coilover sets out there? Only are couple are anywhere near on the mark.
You know you can revavle and add an independent compression adjuster to the Koni's right? Can you do that with any of the other Japanese brands? Maybe a revalve at most. I would prefer to have one rebound adjuster, and not be able to adjust compression, than to have one adjuster to adjust both at the same time. Compression, to me, is like a fake spring anyway, and I can compensate, just by using stiffer springs.
You do know that anything more than 7/5 is too stiff on street tires and over 8/6 is too stiff on R-compounds and will make you slower around a track, right?
The point of going with Koni/Bilstein is that you have a good street shock at first, and then can upgrade to race specs via a revalve from the factory. Koni's are good up to 9 kg, and at that point, it's way too stiff on an FC anyway, so that's a moot point. Stiffer does not always equal faster, there is only one ideal point for every point along the force curve. I would wager that all of the popular coilovers get none of the points right. How can they? They don't know what your car is like, they only know the car model.
You do know that Ground Control uses an adjustable spring perch, the same mechanism as a lot of those "coilovers" out there?
Personally, I've got no beef with the Tein's, JIC's and other coilover brands out there. I just don't know why anyone would buy a standard suspension part when you should be customizing your own shock curves and spring rates to fit your car. That's why I prefer the Koni or Bilstein route, since it lets me pick the ideal suspension settings.
My point is that it's cheaper to go with the upgraded Koni route than it is to go with a Tein Flex at first, and then realize it's not enough at the big boy level, and then have to buy something like Ohlins/Penske/Koni Race Shocks/Bilstein PSS9/JRZ/Moton. Hell, at the Improved Touring level, double adjustable Koni's max out the restriction and are the cheapest way to do it. Match the fact that you can custom valve those shocks and you have a winner that matches the performance of many more expensive shocks. Note that no serious racer runs any of the popular Japanese coilovers.
I find it funny that people follow the tuner aftermarket for racing parts, when they should be following the racing market. Makes much more sense, no? Then again, when I buy car parts, it's to prepare for serious racing. You may want something different, like something slightly capable on the street, with the ease of picking an already matched shock/spring. In that case, I guess a street coilover is acceptable, but you wouldn't catch me driving on those.
Have you seen the shock dynos on some of the Japanese coilover sets out there? Only are couple are anywhere near on the mark.
You know you can revavle and add an independent compression adjuster to the Koni's right? Can you do that with any of the other Japanese brands? Maybe a revalve at most. I would prefer to have one rebound adjuster, and not be able to adjust compression, than to have one adjuster to adjust both at the same time. Compression, to me, is like a fake spring anyway, and I can compensate, just by using stiffer springs.
You do know that anything more than 7/5 is too stiff on street tires and over 8/6 is too stiff on R-compounds and will make you slower around a track, right?
The point of going with Koni/Bilstein is that you have a good street shock at first, and then can upgrade to race specs via a revalve from the factory. Koni's are good up to 9 kg, and at that point, it's way too stiff on an FC anyway, so that's a moot point. Stiffer does not always equal faster, there is only one ideal point for every point along the force curve. I would wager that all of the popular coilovers get none of the points right. How can they? They don't know what your car is like, they only know the car model.
You do know that Ground Control uses an adjustable spring perch, the same mechanism as a lot of those "coilovers" out there?
Personally, I've got no beef with the Tein's, JIC's and other coilover brands out there. I just don't know why anyone would buy a standard suspension part when you should be customizing your own shock curves and spring rates to fit your car. That's why I prefer the Koni or Bilstein route, since it lets me pick the ideal suspension settings.
Last edited by Roen; 01-01-08 at 11:37 AM.
01-01-08, 11:40 AM
#17
You have very valid points... if i wanted a race suspension, id just go race a real race car *tube chassis, formula, etc etc*
but we are talking a production street car here.. the potential is only soo high for the average grassroots racer.. Unless you got the time/data to research damper/compression and the cash/spare downtime to send your shocks in for valving, then go right ahead..
Common coilover setups wont have both rebound/compression adjustments clearly because its not commonly needed, and to keep costs down.
If im gonna need both adjustments, then my car better be full stitch welded/caged/equiped with speed bars, full aero, and by then, im probably not going to be looking at Konis..
but we are talking a production street car here.. the potential is only soo high for the average grassroots racer.. Unless you got the time/data to research damper/compression and the cash/spare downtime to send your shocks in for valving, then go right ahead..
Common coilover setups wont have both rebound/compression adjustments clearly because its not commonly needed, and to keep costs down.
If im gonna need both adjustments, then my car better be full stitch welded/caged/equiped with speed bars, full aero, and by then, im probably not going to be looking at Konis..
01-01-08, 11:54 AM
#18
Ah......but there is a middle ground.......
Restricted class racing
Most of SCCA is like that, to keep costs down. In ITS track racing/STS autox'ing, double adjustable Koni's are the way to go from a cost/performance/legality point of view.
They only let you do so much.
Personally, I try to maximize the effectiveness of each setup I go through, whether it be shock/spring, intermediate race coilover, or full-on race coilover.
With shock/spring combo, I tried to get the stiffest spring that didn't take away any suspension travel. I ended up with a Koni/TII spring combo.
For the GC setup, I don't know if I'm going to use my Koni shocks or revalve my Bilstein shocks. I believe those two have the best force curves at that price range.
Restricted class racing
Most of SCCA is like that, to keep costs down. In ITS track racing/STS autox'ing, double adjustable Koni's are the way to go from a cost/performance/legality point of view.
They only let you do so much.
Personally, I try to maximize the effectiveness of each setup I go through, whether it be shock/spring, intermediate race coilover, or full-on race coilover.
With shock/spring combo, I tried to get the stiffest spring that didn't take away any suspension travel. I ended up with a Koni/TII spring combo.
For the GC setup, I don't know if I'm going to use my Koni shocks or revalve my Bilstein shocks. I believe those two have the best force curves at that price range.
01-04-08, 01:30 PM
#20
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I've also noticed those racing in America with FCs/FDs still aren't as fast as there Japanese counterparts. Zeal/Endless, Tein (High end), Aragosta, Quantum. BTW how many of those using the Koni shocks are even using the 86xx series. For me until you progress and go that route. the 'japanese' suspensions will hold you over until your speed as a driver progresses to the point you will need to get into high/low speed bound/rebound adjustment. Personally I would go JRZ or Sachs if it were possible to fab dbl wishbone at all 4-corners. But then it wouldn't be an FC now would it.
01-10-08, 08:57 AM
#22
I've also noticed those racing in America with FCs/FDs still aren't as fast as there Japanese counterparts. Zeal/Endless, Tein (High end), Aragosta, Quantum. BTW how many of those using the Koni shocks are even using the 86xx series. For me until you progress and go that route. the 'japanese' suspensions will hold you over until your speed as a driver progresses to the point you will need to get into high/low speed bound/rebound adjustment. Personally I would go JRZ or Sachs if it were possible to fab dbl wishbone at all 4-corners. But then it wouldn't be an FC now would it.
I beleive custom valved double-adjustable Konis are functionally identical to the 86xx series, or the 28xx series, the valving is done by the same people, the adjustments are the same, the only differences that come to mind would be if one of the more expensive dampers had remote reservoirs or if they were monotube instead of twintube. Other than that, damping and adjustments should be the same.
If you need High/Low speed adjustments, you skip right over the Japanese brands and go to (IMHO) the king of automotive suspensions, Penske. My point is that for a little bit more than a Japanese street suspension, you gain most of the functionality of a race shock, for a fraction of it's cost, which isn't a bad deal, now is it?
Most racers in FC's don't have the turbo installed, as is the case in ITS racing, and D-production, if I'm not mistaken. Most Japanese racers are also major shop/factory-backed, so there's a lot more money in those setups than the ones over here. In a race between RE Amemiya and Speedsource, the RE car would kill on the sole fact that it has turbo.
RE: FD's, I can't really comment much as i don't know much about the nature of the American FD racers.
My biggest problem with most of the entry-level coilovers is the adjustment in lockstep of compression and rebound. You can't fine tune weight transfer if you have to adjust both at the same time. You can ballpark it, but that's as close as you're going to get.
01-10-08, 11:53 AM
#23
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28XX's are monotubes, the Koni Yellows are twin tubes.
I also am pretty sure that Penske doesn't make struts. Some Koni 2812's in the back and 2817's in front (custom) would be a good race setup, or some JRZ or Dynamic coilovers (custom).
If you don't mind giving up the ****, then custom valved Bilsteins are a very good setup. They use the same stuff in their street shocks that is used in their race shocks, good stuff.
I also am pretty sure that Penske doesn't make struts. Some Koni 2812's in the back and 2817's in front (custom) would be a good race setup, or some JRZ or Dynamic coilovers (custom).
If you don't mind giving up the ****, then custom valved Bilsteins are a very good setup. They use the same stuff in their street shocks that is used in their race shocks, good stuff.
01-10-08, 01:09 PM
#24
mmm.....Custom valved Bilsteins with PSS9 rebound adjusters and Penske canisters.......
I think anything Penske makes for our cars would have to be custom. They may not make full struts, but as long as they make a shock, I'm sure someone could make a strut body to utilise said shock as a strut insert.
I think anything Penske makes for our cars would have to be custom. They may not make full struts, but as long as they make a shock, I'm sure someone could make a strut body to utilise said shock as a strut insert.