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Stance RX7 Touring x Cross Signature Series Coils?

Old 12-10-16, 08:48 AM
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Stance RX7 Touring x Cross Signature Series Coils?

I am considering these Coilovers and wondering if anyone is running these? I am also looking to go with the Upgraded Swift Springs as well. Any information would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
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Old 12-15-16, 07:14 AM
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Bump!
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Old 12-15-16, 07:54 AM
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I wouldn't "upgrade" springs unless you want significantly different spring rates. Unlike dampers, "better" springs won't really perform any differently vs. their "standard" springs, unless the standard springs are utter garbage...

I don't have any experience with Stance coilovers. But you might consider Ohlins DFV, as they are available for $2000 now and the damping is pretty schweeeet...
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Old 12-15-16, 09:10 AM
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I agree on the forgoing the spring upgrade. Try it first with what it comes with and then if you need to adjust, buy the Swift springs. Typically you can get the Swift springs as an "upgrade" for the same price you can buy them for separately.
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Old 12-15-16, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
I wouldn't "upgrade" springs unless you want significantly different spring rates. Unlike dampers, "better" springs won't really perform any differently vs. their "standard" springs, unless the standard springs are utter garbage...

I don't have any experience with Stance coilovers. But you might consider Ohlins DFV, as they are available for $2000 now and the damping is pretty schweeeet...
Thanks for the info! I understand Ohlins are definitely the favorite around here and get all the hype but for my purpose they may be overkill on top of being more than I'd like to spend. Their resale value on here does make me consider them though, just have no idea what Spring Rate would be best for me. Soooooo many opinions!

I don't plan on tracking my car and just want a good quality product at a reasonable price. While Stance Coilovers haven't had much popularity on this forum, many other forums and members praise them as being an amazing Coilover that has equal quality of big named expensive Coilovers without the price tag. The Swift Spring upgrade is definitely an upgrade from their standard Springs. The metal is different and provides a much more linear travel which provides a more comfortable ride.

I appreciate any input you may have on Spring Rates for the Ohlins in the event I end up going that route. Haven't ruled them out, would just rather put the money somewhere else since I won't be tracking.
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Old 12-15-16, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by AV8rZ View Post
Thanks for the info! I understand Ohlins are definitely the favorite around here and get all the hype but for my purpose they may be overkill on top of being more than I'd like to spend.
Ohlins are only $100 more than what you are now considering.

I don't plan on tracking my car and just want a good quality product at a reasonable price.
You want good dampers for the street. Maybe even more so than for the track. For me, it was street ride quality that prompted me to go from Tein SS to Ohlins.

While Stance Coilovers haven't had much popularity on this forum, many other forums and members praise them as being an amazing Coilover that has equal quality of big named expensive Coilovers without the price tag.
What do you mean by "quality"?
Damping curves will most definitely not be "equal", and that is what will determine how the car rides and handles.

The Swift Spring upgrade is definitely an upgrade from their standard Springs. The metal is different and provides a much more linear travel which provides a more comfortable ride.
This is just wrong. *ANY* spring that isn't utter garbage will have a linear spring rate within the range of travel. Spring rate is a function of wire diameter, spring OD, number of coils, and material modulus of elasticity. That's it. IF the spring is operating in a range where the modulus is falling off with increased load (i.e., yielding), it will fatigue and fail in short order.

Calling Swift springs an "upgrade" is marketing IMO. If you're not going to change the spring rate, don't bother. The only possible advantage to Swift springs vs. other non-garbage springs of the same nominal spring rate is that perhaps the Swift springs are more consistent. Maybe an 11kg/mm spring is +/-0.2 kg/mm instead of +/-0.5 kg/mm. For your usage and my usage, this is not a big deal, we would literally never know the difference.

The "quality" that you FEEL in coilovers for a given spring rate is 100% down to the DAMPING. Springs just provide a restoring force and will always give the same amount of force per unit of stroke. Even cheaper ones (that aren't utter crap). They will not affect damping, which is a function of how quickly shock is being actuated.

I appreciate any input you may have on Spring Rates for the Ohlins in the event I end up going that route. Haven't ruled them out, would just rather put the money somewhere else since I won't be tracking.
The spring rate you choose should be the same whatever coilovers you go with.
I would say that for high-performance street-only use, the 8kg/6kg front/rear split that is often recommended is probably a very good place to start.

For street track, somewhere in the 10 - 14 range is a good ballpark to start.
Can do same-rate front/rear, or go with stiffer fronts. What works best will be driver-dependent.

My old Teins were 9/7, and they were definitely too soft for the track. Better damping was 90% of the reason I went with the Ohlins, but the other 10% was because I wanted stiffer springs for the track as well.

I ran the Ohlins 11/11 for a season and decided I needed more overall stiffness at the track while trying to put 500+hp down through a Torsen diff, so I swapped in 13kg/mm springs up front only. Now I have an OSGiken diff and don't have to worry about loss of drive to the inside rear over curbing so I might put 13kg/mm rears in as well.

My car is ~75/25 street track, FWIW.
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Old 12-15-16, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ZDan View Post

This is just wrong. *ANY* spring that isn't utter garbage will have a linear spring rate within the range of travel. Spring rate is a function of wire diameter, spring OD, number of coils, and material modulus of elasticity. That's it. IF the spring is operating in a range where the modulus is falling off with increased load (i.e., yielding), it will fatigue and fail in short order.

Calling Swift springs an "upgrade" is marketing IMO. If you're not going to change the spring rate, don't bother. The only possible advantage to Swift springs vs. other non-garbage springs of the same nominal spring rate is that perhaps the Swift springs are more consistent. Maybe an 11kg/mm spring is +/-0.2 kg/mm instead of +/-0.5 kg/mm. For your usage and my usage, this is not a big deal, we would literally never know the difference.
Yep. Total marketing hype with regard to Swift springs. Any standard high quality spring like PAC, Hypercoil, Eibach, even QA1, will be fine. A spring is a spring for what we are all doing as long as the rate is consistent.

Now the one advantage to the Swift, PAC and other "Long Travel" springs is that they are lighter. Also know that Swift is not the only company that offers that type of spring. I personally run PACs, and they were much lighter than the springs that came on my coil overs. The springs were less than the Swift upgrade for my coil overs, and I didn't waste money on buying springs with the wrong rate.
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Old 12-15-16, 12:32 PM
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Thank You both for the education, I appreciate it all.

I am obviously inexperienced when it comes to Coilovers and am only going off what my research in both reading and speaking with manufacturer and other forums. I am coming from the Z world and KW was the favorite, BC was second because of the price and the Swift Springs were considered an upgrade from factory BC Springs. Everyone swore there was a difference. People who had Stance loved them but also suggested the Swifts as well. The Spring rate on these Stance for the RX7 is 10k/8k. I'm not partial either way, just trying to save a little money and still get a quality product for my FD.

I understand the MSRP is only $100 difference than the $2k Ohlins pricing. I was told that would not be my price. It would be less for sure.

I am very thankful for your input and it is very informative. I just wish I could ride in an FD with a couple different setups to feel the difference but that's just not possible that I know of.
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Old 12-16-16, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by AV8rZ View Post
I am coming from the Z world and KW was the favorite, BC was second because of the price and the Swift Springs were considered an upgrade from factory BC Springs. Everyone swore there was a difference.
100% placebo effect. Nothing against Swift springs, I went with Swift for my 13 kg/mm fronts. But I promise you that there is NO difference in feel or performance between a Swift spring and any other non-garbage spring of the same rate.

People who pay money for a spring "upgrade" expecting magic will usually feel some. But there isn't any magic in springs. Springs are simple: force = displacement * spring rate. The magic is all in the damping, where force is a highly nonlinear function of stroke velocity and can be tailored and tuned with valving and shims that allow blow-off at higher velocities.

People who had Stance loved them but also suggested the Swifts as well. The Spring rate on these Stance for the RX7 is 10k/8k. I'm not partial either way, just trying to save a little money and still get a quality product for my FD.
10/8 totally fine on the street IMO, but you might find the car more enjoyable and less "busy" on the street on something more like 8/6. Whatever spring rate, it's critical to have good dampers (ability to blow off going over bumps/potholes/etc.) for a good smooove ride.
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Old 12-16-16, 01:13 PM
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I believe Swift Springs are more than hype.

If you don't believe it you can read up on the Hyperco springs which offer the same advantages in their OBD and UHT series springs (in limited sizes/rates).

I have only used Swift on my FC so far, but will use them on my FD to replace the Eibachs that came with the Ohlins.

Swift Advantages-

The fewer windings the spring the less binding friction there will be on compression/rebound from spring rotation/friction. As you compress a spring the length of wire does not change so the spring has to rotate. The longer the wire used the more the spring rotates.

Less windings help the spring work with more consistent rate just like putting needle bearing spring seats or just the usual stainless/teflon/nylon shims.

In some applications there may be limited length for the spring so the thinner diameter/fewer windings of the Swift Springs can prevent coil bind. Spring rate will greatly increase as coil bind is approached. Swift tells you what the useable stroke of each spring is.
This is not a problem for the FD coilovers- plenty of room for a long spring.

I have read that Swift Springs have been tested to be more consistent rate through their stroke than some of the other "quality" springs as mentioned by L.O.F.

Swift Springs dynoed - North American Motoring

Swift vs. Vogtland Interesting find on coilover spring testing

Why are Swift Springs an upgrade? - S2KI Honda S2000 Forums

I was introduced to the Swift Springs on my FC though purchasing Stance XR coilovers.

The Stance coilovers were definitely hype.
Poor quality materials (mostly steel) and processes (e-coat instead of anodized, paint instead of powedercoat) and parts etched made in Korea. Heavy heavy.

I did like the Stance XR damping on my FC and longer rear stroke, though damping increase substantially when cold out (right when you don't want that).

The Swift springs I became a believer in.

Hyperco OBD and UHT I would use as well if they fit. For the FD they have 184mm springs that would fit the rear on my Ohlins, but nothing to fit the front 200mm long springs.

I would like to try the Hyperco hydraulic spring perches for Ohlins/Penske coilovers too. I hope they fit the Road&Track coilover bodies we buy and not just the Ohlins race shocks.
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Old 12-16-16, 01:28 PM
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Good call on the rotation aspect of the spring BLUE TII. I did forget about that, and that is good to note.

Also I wanted to point out that PAC gives you EVERY spring and travel dimension on their website for their springs. I have not seen another spring manufacturer do this. The PAC springs I run are similar to the Swifts.

You can see this shorter PAC spring actually yields more travel than the longer spring. It was about half the weight.


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Old 12-17-16, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by BLUE TII View Post
The Swift springs I became a believer in.
the swift springs do seem to be really nice, that being said they aren't magic.

1. spring steel has a given modulus of elasticity, or spring, it also has a given mass (weight). the Swifts are made from something else, and the really cheap springs are probably not pure spring steel either.

2. the material Swift uses allows them to use fewer windings per length/rate, this does let them have a longer travel, which can be important. how many of us have even checked this? there are some cars, like the E46 where this is critical, and there is a beehive style spring available

3. fewer windings = less spring rotation during compression. springs need to rotate as they compress, function of the overall length of the wire. less rotation is better, but the fancy guys are running a bearing at the bottom of the spring or a teflon ring anyways.

4. weight. i found a thread comparing the weight of the Swift to Eibach, and they are basically the same. it is a moot point almost, the most important part of the spring is the rate. in a spring, we need rate, length, availability, price, and then if there are still two springs to choose from we would go with the lighter one. or you could run a 2.25 ID spring, instead of a 2.5" ID spring...

5. the rate per available travel. i notice 2/3 of the articles touting how consistent the Swifts are, are from the same guy, so it would be nice to see someone else verify the findings. hypercoil is warrantied to a 2% difference, which in a 500lbs/in spring is 490-510lbs/in. it is possible to have a high rate spring, with a looser tolerance, like the linked article, where the 450lbs spring actually tested at 500, 9% difference.

in summary, are Swifts better? yes. are they magic? no.
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Old 12-17-16, 01:02 PM
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Yes, you can get springs from other manufacturers with the same advantages as Swift, but you have to know what you are looking for.

With swift, you just open the catalog and find the spring that fits and you know it is the best spring they can make.

This is because even though their parent company Tokyo Hatsujo Manufacturing has been making springs since 1924, they only entered the motorsports market in 1998 after much research aimed at selling the highest performance springs they could.

So basically, they don't have a back catalog of crap springs they have to keep up for customers who already have the old products.
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Old 12-17-16, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BLUE TII View Post
So basically, they don't have a back catalog of crap springs they have to keep up for customers who already have the old products.
i agree, the swfts are better, its just i'm not sure by how much.

second, the back catalog thing is 1000% right on. I'm used to Mazda, when they add a new part, the old one gets dropped. with my new job, we're dealing with the whole aftermarket, and it is very widespread that the aftermarket will add the new design part, and then just keep the old crap around.

sometimes this is ok, Ford has some hose where the early one is 17" long, and the late one is 15" long, obviously some Ford people come up short (zing), but gates offers both.

the bad one is permatex. we asked which sealer is best, and they told us to only use the right stuff. the old stuff is only there because people buy it, not because it works.
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Old 12-17-16, 04:22 PM
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Unless the "bad" springs give instantaneous increase in rate, the effects of increased rate with travel are going to be minor compared to damping. Spring rate stiffening up due to binding throughout stroke is one thing, but it still is going to act somewhat progressively. Bad damping is an instantaneous thing. Hit a bump, bad dampers act like they're locked up.

I would rather have "bad" springs that might effectively stiffen up by 10 or 20% throughout range of travel than have bad dampers that act locked instantaneously as soon as you hit a bump and have significant stroke velocity.
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