Larz

Is there any major difference between the two besides the price? I've heard good things about the rotary extreme ones, but haven't heard anything about the RPs. Haven't done much suspension work before. How hard of a task for the DIY guy? I was going to do them while replacing the pillow ball bushings.

poss

iTrader: (5)

They are easy to swap out. A total of 8 bolts for both sides, both links. I happen to have a brand new set of Rotary Extreme trailing arms that I'm probably not going to use. PM me if you are interested.

rynberg

The Rotary Extreme ones have rubber dust boots for the bearings. All of the others on the market don't and will wear out in about 1-1/2 years or so (or less), depending on conditions.

You shouldn't replace the stock parts just for reliability -- FDs have a race car suspension and go through bearings, that's just the way it is. For people who regularly track their cars, they're almost like normal maintenance items.

Larz

What if they are self sealing? Is that as good or better?

artowar

iTrader: (1)

How does the self-sealing work?

Larz

I'd like to know.

rynberg

What the hell is "self-sealing" supposed to be and where did you hear of it?

poss

iTrader: (5)

Where are you seeing self-sealing?

artowar

iTrader: (1)

Pressure's on Larz

Larz

Trailing arms and toe links
Heya

I saw you were asking about RP and RE Trailing arms and toe links. I want to thow another set in the mix. I produce my own under the name of Secret Element. In short they are identical to RE's, but they have a 17K lb load rating rather than 7.4K lb load rating. I have been running a set on my car for 4 months as well as two of my friends. I am also sponsoring Tony Angelo's Falken FD in Formula D so they are well tested.

My prices:
Toe Links $210
Trailing Arms $180

Pics can be seen at http://www.secretelement.com/

Let me know if you have any quesetions.

Daniel

Larz

And another reply from my PMS. The plot thickens.......

Thanks.

They are self lubricating and self sealing. So the race nor the teflon will pound out like you normal 3 pc. The pics on my page are on the original version I had, I need to update with the new pics. Right now they do have rod end seals because I still have stock left from my orginal setup. Once those are done they will no longer have the rod ends seals since they are self sealing.

BTW I would like to Thank you for you duty for the country! If you buy them, I will throw in a Secret Element t-shirt for you as well.

Daniel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larz
I'll consider them. I want to get some responses on my thread before I make a desicion. Just got out of the Marines and money is tight. Are the rods teflon lined and come with dust covers?
Forward Message Reply With Quote

Larz

Alright suspension gurus, let's hear it. Just trying to make sure I get my hard earned money's worth.

artowar

iTrader: (1)

Self-lubricating indicates teflon-lined rod ends. Self-sealing? Well, his prototypes use dust caps like Rotaryextreme does. I wouldn't call that self-sealing. He doesn't show or explain how his newer self-sealing rod ends work, and I haven't seen a rod end that claims to be self-sealing. Ask him for some more details.

Are the secretelement pieces worth your money? I've never seen them, and don't know anyone else with them, so I can't help you there.

artowar

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm, a google search for "self-sealing rod ends" turns up a few hits. However, I am skeptical that the self-sealing feature works. A little grit, moisture, rotation and pressure, and you will grind away the teflon / teflon-graphite / teflon-carbon-fiber-matrix / teflon-KY-jelly layer...

It sounds to me like they are just trying to hype lubricated rod ends by claiming that they are also self-sealing. Maybe it works, but I find it hard to believe.

rynberg

Gee, a start up tuner in Pennsylvania whose products look remarkably like those already on the market -- this isn't that bozo who came up with anti-detonation butt plugs who was ripping off KD Rotary, is it? (If it isn't, I apologize to Secret Element, at least for the moment.)

In any case, sounds like a load of hokum to me. These bearings wear out, OEM or aftermarket. Those look almost exactly like Chucks pieces and I would rather support Chuck, personally.

eyecandy

iTrader: (19)

I find that statement quite offensive, and would like your apology. First of all I have no idea what this "anti-detonation butt plugs" are and secondly it is certainly no me. About the links I do not see how those look exactly like Chucks pieces, if you go that far then you can say the same of RX7-store, RX7.com, K2RD, etc.

Now to get on with the rod ends. Yes they are self sealing, the race is internal. Picture a 2pc rod end externally, rather than there being metal on metal body /ball contact there is and injected Kevlar/teflon race. My original were a standard 3pc and had the dust boots, but still found mositure and debris inside, which is not good. I have now switched to the self sealing for various reasons:

-Significantly stronger
-Self sealing (ball and body is clearance so tight that it will physically wipe away andy mositure or debris on the ball.)
-Race/teflon will not pound out

Standard 3pc rod ends teflon liner is NOT injected, its bonded to the race

Here are a few pictures, sorry this is the best I can do. The first two are of the self sealed, adn the second two are the standard 3pc. As you can see, or shall I say cannot see the race in the sealed rod ends, where as the race/teflon is exposed in the standard 3pc.

DamonB

Here's all anyone needs to know: There is absolutely no reason to add aftermarket toe links. There is also absolutely no reason to add aftermarket trailing arms except in the case where you need that last bit of clearance for your huge wheels.

The stock toe links will last much longer, be quieter and offer just as much performance as any aftermarket piece. The stock trailing arms can have their bushing replaced with either the uprgraded (and stiffer) Mazda Motorsports version or you can go solid with jimlab's nylon bushings. Nothing will touch the Mazda bushings for longevity and the aftermarket stuff offers no real performance improvement either.

rynberg

Sure, I already apologized in the above post, but I'll apologize again. Most of my vitriol was based on thinking you were the above-mentioned anti-detonation plug rip-off artist. Good luck with your business.

What kind of mileage do you have on the "self-sealing" rod ends?

dis1

I don't know Damon... I have heard this opinion a few times now and I think I'll add my two cents. Sure, you can replace the bushings in these parts to things like the jimlab bushings but this requires more than a socket wrench. In addition can you buy a kit from jimlab that only has these bushings? I don't think an entire kit is needed or even desirable. As for longevity the rod ends are cheap and easy to replace. This can not be said for the stock bushings. I had big problems with the stock bushings in the locations that parts like these eliminate. Longevity was one of these problems. I have been very happy with what I bought, a RE kit.

Anyway I am not saying your POV is wrong. You can stick with the stock parts and add different bushings. What I am saying is that these parts do have merit over the stock parts and that they are an acceptable option just as the options you suggested are.

eyecandy

iTrader: (19)

I support you 95%. Where i totally agree is the fact that they do not offer any more performance (taking brand new of each). Although you gotta look at it in this light, I believe the Trailings arm bushings can only be purchased with new arms. I cannot remember if someone sourced just the OE bushings or not. Also I believe the each toe link bushing is in the $50 range (or there abouts).

My thought behind the arms and link is that it is cheaper to replace a rod end than the OE bushing, its also easier.

With a bushing kit, the metal on metal will stiffen the chassis, but wear out faster. There are many places where you need to draw a line, mainly longevity or stiffness.

DamonB

It seems to me there is absolutely no reason to "upgrade" something unless you can get better performance or if the stock part is worn out and the aftermarket part is of equal (or better) performance and available more cheaply. You have to look at the big picture and nobody ever bothers to look further than the initial purchase price of the parts themselves.

First; the toe links. I originally put aftermarket toe links on my daily driven car and replaced the rod ends often due to them wearing out. I then came up with the idea of upgrading and adding dust seals to the rod ends. That helped but fact is rod ends will always wear out faster than the stock parts, no matter what. I gave up on trying to re-invent the wheel and just bought new toe link bushings to press in. I spend more time on the street and on race rubber than the far majority of people here and I can tell you without a doubt that I feel absolutely no difference in the handling of the car between stock or aftermarket toe links if neither are worn out.

So why go with aftermarket links if there is no performance gain? To save money? Well.... you don't save any money. Aftermarket toe links are typically just over $200. You buy the toe links and put them on and then you're forced to go and get the car re-aligned afterwards and that alone is going to cost about $100 for most of us. So in fact it actually costs just over $300 to go with aftermarket toe links. After you do that the friggen things are going to wear out faster than the stock parts anyway so you get to keep purchasing new rod ends, and a truly high quality 3 piece teflon rod end is going to cost $20 a pop easy. Then each time you have to replace the rod ends you get to re-align the car again. There's no performance gain and absolutely no savings of money in the long run because you can buy the stock toe link bushings for about the same amount of money as aftermarket links. Yes you will have to pay somebody to press the new bushings in BUT you don't have to get an alignment done! If the alignment was correct to start with and you don't mix up the left and right sides you can just bolt the same parts right back on. Stock toe link bushings + paying to have them pressed in is cheaper than aftermarket toe links + re-alignment + several rod end replacements for the same life of the part.

Second; the trailing arms. If you want wide rear wheels and need slightly more clearance than the stock trailing arms can give you must go with aftermarket arms with rod ends. All the longevity and replacement problems of the rod ends will still apply but you will gain clearance over stock. If what you really want is a firmer bushing then you can buy the stiffer Mazda Motorsports rubber bushing and add it to the stock arm, or you can go completely solid by using jimlab's nylon bushing in the stock arm. Either of these will last much longer than a rod end. Because they last longer you don't have to keep paying to constantly replace them.

There is no great performance nor economic advantage to aftermarket toe links or trailing arms. The only real advantage is the added wheel clearance of the aftermarket arms but the upgrade of the bushing in the trailing arm can be accomplished by replacing just the bushing in the stock parts.

DamonB

It's not cheaper when it costs you several sets of rod ends to equal the life of one set of stock parts. Initial cost of the aftermarket parts may seem competitive to stock, but when you look at what it will cost you to maintain the part over the years there's no comparison: stock is cheaper.

The stock parts also will not require re-alignment each time like the aftermarket ones will.

jimlab

Jesus Damon, I think you just convinced me to sell my Rotary Extreme toe links and trailing arms.

I think that's the third set I've owned and never installed.

DamonB

You continue to have problems I can't identify with. Why do you buy stuff just to sit on the shelf and then sell to someone else later?

artowar

iTrader: (1)

Sounds interesting, and I hope that they work well, but I still find it hard to believe that moisture and debris won't get into the joint. It seems more likely that moisture and debris will get in, but due to the way the joint is constructed it will operate for a longer period (than a standard lined joint) before a significant amount of the injected kevlar/teflon is worn away and the joint develops excessive play.