Opinions on staggered vs nuetral wheel setups....
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From: Tokyo/Texas
Opinions on staggered vs nuetral wheel setups....
What are people's opinions on running staggered vs nuetral wheel setups? I'm debating between 17x8's all around w/ 225-235 tires or 17x8's (225-235) up front and 17x9 (245-255) in rear. Besides being a daily driver, my main focus is on handling (autocross and road racing). What's your opinion on it? Staggered or nuetral? Why?
This would be on a 1991 TII by the way.
This would be on a 1991 TII by the way.
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From: Rivervale, NJ, USA
I've been wondering about this too.
Since the RX-7 has near 50/50 weight distribution, and the suspension was designed to have the same size wheels/tires all around, wouldn't a bigger contact patch on the back tend to make the car push (understeer) more? Personally I like a car that's a little on the looser side, but I learned to drive on a 2002, a car that is a confirmed oversteerer.
I was always under the impression that staggered fitments were for people whose main focus was drag racing, as they need every bit of traction at the rear wheels they can get to put all that power down.
Anyone with better information on this?
Since the RX-7 has near 50/50 weight distribution, and the suspension was designed to have the same size wheels/tires all around, wouldn't a bigger contact patch on the back tend to make the car push (understeer) more? Personally I like a car that's a little on the looser side, but I learned to drive on a 2002, a car that is a confirmed oversteerer.
I was always under the impression that staggered fitments were for people whose main focus was drag racing, as they need every bit of traction at the rear wheels they can get to put all that power down.
Anyone with better information on this?
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From: Tokyo/Texas
Staggered setups are definately beneficial for drag racing, but as I was walking around campus at UT, I stopped to look at the wheel specs on this bad *** Porsche Turbo (don't know what year....wanna say 97-99) and noticed it was running 225/40/18's up front and 255/35/18's in the rear. They might actually have been 265 but I can't remember now. Anyways...this was on stock Porsche wheels which means that they come staggered from the factory and I'm pretty sure that Porsche's main focus is not on drag racing for its cars.
You're right in that a larger contact patch in back would cause the car to understeer, but I'm going to be running this with a JIC FLT-A2 suspension, so I will be able to set things how I please. I'm sure that as long as you adjust your dampening forces correctly, a staggered setup would work nicely.
You're right in that a larger contact patch in back would cause the car to understeer, but I'm going to be running this with a JIC FLT-A2 suspension, so I will be able to set things how I please. I'm sure that as long as you adjust your dampening forces correctly, a staggered setup would work nicely.
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That makes sense, if you have that kind of adjustability you should be able to compensate for any increase in understeer.
I am by no means a suspension expert, so my answer was at least as much another question as a response
I am by no means a suspension expert, so my answer was at least as much another question as a response
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From: San Lorenzo, California
The porsche 911 runs a staggered set-up because the weight distribution is like 40/60. Look at any mid- or rear-engine car. They ALL have a staggered set-up to help counter the over-steer naturally present in the chassis.
BTW, late model 911 TT's run 285/30 in the back!
Carrera's run 265/35 with the upgraded wheel package.
BTW, late model 911 TT's run 285/30 in the back!
Carrera's run 265/35 with the upgraded wheel package.
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From: IN
Really depends on your use for the FD Rx7...I run a neutral setup with 9 x 17, 45-mm offset SSR Integral A2s with 255/40-17 Yoko AVS I's. Great setup, for road, autocross, and track.
For the high-speed open-track, I run 8.5 x 17 fr and 9.5 x 17 rr, 42-mm offset SSR Comps with 245/45-17 fr and 275/40-17 rr Hoosier R3S03s. There is more understeer, and the understeer only shows up in really tight, slow turns. The wider rear tires come into play when you want to get on the gas sooner, and leave your foot to the floor, through the Ses at Mid Ohio or Road Atlanta. Believe me you WANT STABILITY through the S'es at HIGH SPEED!
Now I'm thinking I could use a little more width, so next year, we'll have 9.5 x 18 fr and 10.5 x 18 rr Volk CE28Ns with 245/40-18 fr and 275/35-18 rr Hoosier R3S03s. The tires aren't wider, but the rim widths ARE and this allows the tires to provide MORE contact patch WITHOUT adding extra weight! Also the 18-inch wheel diameter will decrease the tire sidewall height, and and stiffen up the car's handling fr/rr (similar to adding stiffer springs).
For drag racing you want very soft sidewalled tires, with larger contact patches, BUT with taller tire sidewalls (higher aspect ratios), and very light rear 16-inch wheels (to decrease the rotational inertial moment, for maximum accleration potential.
For the high-speed open-track, I run 8.5 x 17 fr and 9.5 x 17 rr, 42-mm offset SSR Comps with 245/45-17 fr and 275/40-17 rr Hoosier R3S03s. There is more understeer, and the understeer only shows up in really tight, slow turns. The wider rear tires come into play when you want to get on the gas sooner, and leave your foot to the floor, through the Ses at Mid Ohio or Road Atlanta. Believe me you WANT STABILITY through the S'es at HIGH SPEED!
Now I'm thinking I could use a little more width, so next year, we'll have 9.5 x 18 fr and 10.5 x 18 rr Volk CE28Ns with 245/40-18 fr and 275/35-18 rr Hoosier R3S03s. The tires aren't wider, but the rim widths ARE and this allows the tires to provide MORE contact patch WITHOUT adding extra weight! Also the 18-inch wheel diameter will decrease the tire sidewall height, and and stiffen up the car's handling fr/rr (similar to adding stiffer springs).
For drag racing you want very soft sidewalled tires, with larger contact patches, BUT with taller tire sidewalls (higher aspect ratios), and very light rear 16-inch wheels (to decrease the rotational inertial moment, for maximum accleration potential.
Last edited by SleepR1; Aug 16, 2002 at 01:15 PM.
FYI, he has an FC Manny. Well you would be able to run a 235/40/17 with that offset of +35 front and rear. You'll need to leave about a 1.5" gap up front to ensure proper movement of your suspension and such for autox. This should avoid any rubbing.
Spool, you have to get the toe eliminators otherwise it won't matter what size wheel you put in the back. Those fockers will always spin you out under hard tight cornering. Hate the DTSS.
You're definitely maxed out in the front w/ a 235/40/17. I can't figure this one out. It's too hard. For autox I'd say symmetry so you can get that back end out quicker, but for roadrace I'd say stagger for the FC. It's a toss up. Maybe Manny can tell you better now that he knows you have an FC.
Rishie
Spool, you have to get the toe eliminators otherwise it won't matter what size wheel you put in the back. Those fockers will always spin you out under hard tight cornering. Hate the DTSS.
You're definitely maxed out in the front w/ a 235/40/17. I can't figure this one out. It's too hard. For autox I'd say symmetry so you can get that back end out quicker, but for roadrace I'd say stagger for the FC. It's a toss up. Maybe Manny can tell you better now that he knows you have an FC.
Rishie
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Yea....I used to live in Houston where there was an Autocross event almost every weekend, but I moved to Austin for college, where I'm lucky if there is one every month. However, the roads in Austin are much more hilly and I've found many backroads that I've really had fun driving, so I think a staggered setup will work better for me. Plus any events that I'm likely to make a trek to will be road racing courses (Texas World Speedway, Texas Motorsports Ranch).
ARD T2....what are the toe elimators? DTSS? Kind of like camber correction?
ARD T2....what are the toe elimators? DTSS? Kind of like camber correction?
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From: Rivervale, NJ, USA
The Toe Eliminators disable the "rear steer" system in the FC's.
Racing Beat explains the whole thing better than I can here:
They are high on my shopping list. I am looking into some suspension upgrades myself in a couple months, the only decisions I've made are 1) I am getting rid of the DTSS 2) I can't afford to do coilovers right & I dont need all that adjustibility anyway
If Manny or Rishie or the rest of you have any advice it would be greatly appreciated
Racing Beat explains the whole thing better than I can here:
1986-92 RX-7 Rear Suspension Upright Toe Eliminator
On the 1986-92 RX-7s Mazda introduced the Dynamic Tuned Suspension System (DTSS). DTSS allows each wheel to steer by itself based on how many Gs of cornering force the outside wheel is generating. In stock form, cornering forces operating on the rear upright cause up to approximately 1 degree of toe-in on the outside wheel in a turn. This characteristic tends to compensate for driver input or road variations that might cause a vehicle to go out of control. However, this same characteristic also interferes with the feedback that a sensitive driver needs to operate his car near the limit of adhesion and generally reduces the ultimate cornering force.
Our Toe Eliminator - a rigid joint that replaces the stock rubber joint - provides a perceptible improvement in feedback to the driver. There is no longer a need to modulate inputs based on the constantly fluctuating elastic joint output. The kit consists of two (2) rigid plastic sleeves and two (2) steel bushings which should be installed with the aid of a hydraulic press or a large vise. No re-alignment is necessary after installation.
On the 1986-92 RX-7s Mazda introduced the Dynamic Tuned Suspension System (DTSS). DTSS allows each wheel to steer by itself based on how many Gs of cornering force the outside wheel is generating. In stock form, cornering forces operating on the rear upright cause up to approximately 1 degree of toe-in on the outside wheel in a turn. This characteristic tends to compensate for driver input or road variations that might cause a vehicle to go out of control. However, this same characteristic also interferes with the feedback that a sensitive driver needs to operate his car near the limit of adhesion and generally reduces the ultimate cornering force.
Our Toe Eliminator - a rigid joint that replaces the stock rubber joint - provides a perceptible improvement in feedback to the driver. There is no longer a need to modulate inputs based on the constantly fluctuating elastic joint output. The kit consists of two (2) rigid plastic sleeves and two (2) steel bushings which should be installed with the aid of a hydraulic press or a large vise. No re-alignment is necessary after installation.
If Manny or Rishie or the rest of you have any advice it would be greatly appreciated
