owen is fat

they are just being erxtreme, tryign alternative things, just let them be.
if you hate on them you are just acting like a old granny on a street yelling at skateboarders to keep the noise down.

USS CJ

lol

REted preaching about reefer. Do you need to take viagra yet you haggard old geezer you?

Whats awesome is that you bro's have nothing new to say, ever. You stick to whats been done 1,000,000 times before and cling to OE specifications as if going outside of them would cause your precious 80's coupe to explode in a ball of flames. We speak from experience, because we actually drive, you just repeat the same stuff REted or whoever read someplace esle once, and reposted.

Whatever though, in the end "dumb drifter kiddie/JDM tye Yo/Bandwagon/not autoX road racing or highway pull/Blah blah blah kids" actually drive their cars hard, and often.

Hey ted, show the gabs breh for the 808 state!

chozenfc3s

I have a vert with stock fenders, struts, and Tein S-Techs, I wanted to know if my wheels/tire combo will fit or will i need modification (roll, pull, overfenders, etc.)

F:19x8.5+25 w/245-35-19

R:19x9.5+23 w/255-35-19

Pls let me know

Black91n/a

If no one ever pointed out bad ideas and tried to steer others in the right direction progress would be mightly slow.

I drive my car every day to work, I autocross it, I take long drives in it, and I take it to the track and pound on it mercilessly. If you don't believe me then here's some proof, pictures of me from this summer when I spent 3 days straight at the track. In case anyone's interested they're 15x8 Rota Slipstreams with a 40mm offset mounted with some 7/16" Mr. Gasket spacers (29mm total offset) on long ARP studs (3.25" front, 2.5" rear), the tires are 225/50/15 Hankook Z211 R comounds (hard compound). So you're not the only one who drives.

I don't just repeat what others say, I may make the same arguments, but my knowledge comes from a wide range of credible, knowledgable sources. I read books on motorsport and car prep, I read magazines like Racecar Engineering and Race Tech, I work on a racecar with a driver whose been racing since before I was born and I go to the track and crew for him where I talk with other long time racers.

USS CJ

ok great, but none of us care.

It works for us, and i dont know anyone who stretches tires that has problems from it.

I dont care what you do, like at all, so stop getting your panties in a bunch over somebody GASP going outside of reccomendations on something that has no effect on you.


thanks

Black91n/a

Right, you implied that I have no basis for what I say and implied that I don't drive my car, or don't drive it hard. I showed that you're making dumbass comments not based on any fact and suddenly you don't care, how conveniant.

The Griffin

^ I wouldn't even waste my time commenting or better yet even give them the time of day.Who cares if they want to drive around on stretched tires that look like elastic bands.As "Owen is fat" hints, if you ignore them maybe they'll just f#ckoff and go watch NOPI or something.

turboeric

^+1 Besides, it just encourages the proliferation of illiterate stupidity.

RX710thAE

cool thanks bro!

USS CJ

yeah right,


you drove your car on a track once...what a man.

Whats awesome is that you say **** like "maybe if you just ignore them they will go away" but everytime we make a post, YOU crybabies have to chime in. Get serious.

Hey anyone else want to chime in about manufacturer specs? Or the fact that we are ruining our geometry or scrub radius?


I swear this time it will matter to one of us.

Black91n/a

Making incorrect comments again, I've been to 4 seperate 2 day driving schools on 2 different tracks and did an open track day the friday before the last one. So that's 9 days in total over the last 4 years (I do them as I can afford them) and I plan on doing many more in the future.

I don't rain on your parade for your benefit, I don't have any allusions that I can convince you that it's not good, what I'm hoping is that those who are lurking and sitting on the fence as to whether or not to do it might get the message and at least go for a less extreme stretch.

I don't have a problem with changing scrub radius per-se, although less is better. It's not good to change the offset because of the scrub radius, but that's the only way to fit wide tires and the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, so we put up with things like increased steering effort and so on. One should try to keep the offset as close to stock as is possible for their desired wheel and tire width, as it negatively affects other things too, like it effectively makes the car softer by giving the tire a larger lever arm with which it acts on the suspension. Basically scrub radius will affect how the car drives, but it's not really a safety problem, although if your wheels and tires are sticking out past the fenders that can make it more dangerous for pedestrians should you ever hit one, and therefore its illegal in most places. I don't have a problem with modifying cars or anything, I just think it should be done properly and so that it'll all work together in harmony.

USS CJ

wow, 9 track days in 4 years.

Please, dont talk about scrub radius again, it is obvious you dont drive enough to even know what you are saying. I dont know anyone running extermely low offset wheels that has noticed ANY difference in turning effort (like it would matter). 17x9 +9 up front on my car and i notice 0 difference. 18x9.5 +2 or some crap on my roomates car...no difference.

And for god sakes, the pedestrian arguement is by far the dumbest "point" ive heard thus far in this thread. you must have been joking.

drftwerks

iTrader: (1)

OH NOES, NOT MORE NON FITMENT!!!!

Black91n/a

You made such a big deal about how apparently only drifters drive hard and now apparently you don't care about that anymore, again, how conveniant for you. I'd have done more, but and engineering degree is expensive and I couldn't afford to do any more.

You must not know anyone with manual steering (I have manual steering BTW). With power steering the difference in effort may be partially or completely masked by the power assist, that's probably why you didn't notice a difference. Tire forces can be approximated as acting about the center of the contact patch and the scrub is the lever arm between that and the center of rotation of the tire on the ground plane (the "Dave Point" for SCC readers). If you increase the lever arm (scrub radius) with lower offset wheels then the forces on the tire cause a greater moment about the center of rotation, this causes the steering rack to have to exert a larger force to counter it, which makes the steering feel heavier. For power steering instead of having that extra force on the rack coming from you through the steering wheel into the pinion the system could have increased the pressure in the system, or it's just a small enough change in magnitude that one might not notice unless they're looking to feel it. It's also this increased moment arm that allows the forces generated by ruts in the road to cause tramlining (following the ruts, pulling on the wheel), which is also magnified by wider and sticker tires (more force). You've surely noticed a tendancy for the car to tramline havent you? You can't deny the physics of it. I can really feel the difference in tramlining when I change from stock offset wheels (basically none) to ones with just 10mm less offset (quite noticable and annoying). So you see I do know what I'm talking about here, both from experience and from technical knowledge about suspensions. I'd love to hear your technical, intelligent explanation about why you think scrub radius isn't important and doesn't affect steering effort.

I wasn't trying to make any point with the pedestrian thing, I was saying that increased scrub isn't really that big a problem by itself and was simply pointing out that tires/wheels sticking out past the fenders could be dangerous to a pedestrian and is illegal most places, that's all.

If you have nothing intelligent to say then don't say anything at all. All you seem capable of is making personal attacks at others, which isn't very nice, isn't constructive, doesn't help your side of the argument, makes you look petty and is against forum rules. We don't have to agree, but we can at least keep things civil.

Josh18_2k

iTrader: (3)

drifters use power steering.
drift cars are rarely driven on public rutted highways with those wacky drift wheels.
drifters dont care about convention or manufacturers' recommendations or road racers' experiance.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

jeez, on 15 x 7, +24, tramlining is so apparent, it's not even funny. In the case of two extremes, I run with a 1/8 inch toe out, and my old set was RE-01R's with a 16x7, +35 offset. The tires had a tendency to track where they wanted to only on very bad roads with lots of ruts and uneven pavement. Switching to a 15x7, +24 offset with shitty all-season tires, even on minor pavement errors, the car will change direction on it's own. The car does have power steering.

I don't have a problem with you guys doing your thing and running low offset wheels. I just don't want other people to get the wrong impression that you can, and there are no drawbacks.

And yes, scrub radius is important, maybe not the most important thing, but it's good to keep it in mind.

owen is fat

Ive driven a lot of setups also and I firmly believe scrub radius is important to consider, but some people wont ever notice it because they run with so much negative camber that there is not a large (wide) contact patch anyways and they do not see any changes in front grip with a change in offset, they are basicly riding on the same patch as a spare wheel would give you....

Roen

iTrader: (2)

The racers run between -3 and -4 degrees of camber in the front just because of positive camber gain when the front strut suspension becomes loaded, but I guess in a straight-line, yeah, you're probably right.

Black91n/a

Yep, you may still have contact at the outside, but the tire at the outside will be very lightly loaded and will exert a much smaller effect and it'll at least act like a smaller contact patch on the inside edge, whether or not there's actually seperation at the outside. This causes braking to be compromised and is one big reason why you'll find that there comes a point where adding camber slows you down.

drftwerks

iTrader: (1)

better pic

17x9 +15
18x.95 +22

stance coils

RETed

That's a very good point...


-Ted

RETed

Isn't it backwards for a MacPherson type suspension up front?
Doesn't the camber go more negative as everything is compressed?


-Ted

eli809

hey ted just wondering what you would think with this and what u would run tire wise>.>
17x8.5 35offset
17x9.5 35offset i have tein coilovers>.> and im running about -2 camber and negitive 1.5 in the rear. thanks for helping!

and boo to the people starting arguements to people that are just tryin to be helpful. giving drift people a badname cuz u are being a asshat

and ya the more compressed the more it goes into negitive camber. not to dramatic of a change but a few .0

eage8

iTrader: (9)

backs are fine depending on what size tire you go with, (255 without a rolled fender would probably be best, 275 with)

the front will be close. it would probably not fit stock suspensions, but it would probably fit with your coilovers.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

I always thought it was the other way based on personal experience.

An example:

I current have camber bolts on the car, with a strut/spring setup. On the alignment rack, it says -0.3 degree of camber, but when visually inspecting the camber angle, the fronts have more camber than the rear at -0.5 degree. I'm estimating that they're in the -1.3 to -1.0 degree range. After I come back from a track run, I notice I have paint on the outside of my tire, on the sidewall specifically. My theory is that the tire is rolling over in the turns, I'm losing a lot of negative camber, and is somehow being marked by the track.

Additionally, during autocross runs, I asked an instructor to drive my car around the course. After the run was over, he asked me if my car underwent camber change in the corners. He then said that the strut suspension loses negative camber through the corners and my tires showed. the outside half of the tread was being completely abused and the inside was remarkably clean, even on abrasive asphalt.

After everything else I've experienced, and the things I've read on this and other internet resources, I've assumed that the strut suspension loses camber. Now, if only I understood how the actual forces interact under compression, such as the tie rod, the ball joint, the control arm and arm bushings, I could explain this much better.

Also, I had thought that the double A-arm suspension was the one that gained negative camber in the corners.

Ted, what's your opinion on these? (Assume GC coilover springs, -4.0 degrees of camber)

Front: 17 x 8.5, +38 or 17 x 9, +44
Rear: 17 x 9.5, +38 or 17 x 10, +44