how much does heavier (~25lbs) wheels really degrade performance?
04-12-04, 11:41 AM
#1
how much does heavier (~25lbs) wheels really degrade performance?
When shopping for wheels my main concern has been looks, wieght and cost. The truth of the matter is that looks is probably my number one concern 
. If I wanted light wheels only, I'd keep the stockers. In other words, I'm getting wheels soley for looks, but I don't want to compromise performance too much. I like the looks of many "heavier" wheels (SSR GT3, Blitz Technospeed, 5Zigen Heidfeld, etc) and am wondering how much performance I'd really be sacrificing if I got a 25 lb/wheel set...
My question is: For a street driven car, how much does heavier (~25lbs) wheels really degrade performance?
-Matt
. If I wanted light wheels only, I'd keep the stockers. In other words, I'm getting wheels soley for looks, but I don't want to compromise performance too much. I like the looks of many "heavier" wheels (SSR GT3, Blitz Technospeed, 5Zigen Heidfeld, etc) and am wondering how much performance I'd really be sacrificing if I got a 25 lb/wheel set...My question is: For a street driven car, how much does heavier (~25lbs) wheels really degrade performance?
-Matt
04-12-04, 12:53 PM
#4
Re: how much does heavier (~25lbs) wheels really degrade performance?
Originally posted by moehler
My question is: For a street driven car, how much does heavier (~25lbs) wheels really degrade performance?
My question is: For a street driven car, how much does heavier (~25lbs) wheels really degrade performance?
The stock wheels are about 16lbs or so. Adding another 7-9lbs on the corners for the street really isn't going to matter. I plan on running some "heavy rims" soon on the street. I'll be putting sticky tires on the stock rims for the track. In this case, I don't care about the extra weight since it won't have any affect on my track performance.
I think people go overboard with this "heavy rim" thing. But then again, the FD has a darn near 50/50 weight distribution, do you think people calculate what they are removing from "all sides" of the car when they are removing things like PS, AC, etc to save weight? NOPE!
Get whatever rims you like, it's your car.
04-12-04, 01:23 PM
#6
Lives on the Forum
It depends on how sensitive your "butt dyno"(?) is?
Going from stock Zenki Turbo II rims (27#) to GAB Sport 16" x 7" (15#), there is a noticable difference in how the car reacts and performs. Steering input is changed and the lighter wheels just react faster to changes in the road.
If you're not looking for it, I doubt you'd feel the difference, but the more experienced drivers should be able to feel the difference.
-Ted
Going from stock Zenki Turbo II rims (27#) to GAB Sport 16" x 7" (15#), there is a noticable difference in how the car reacts and performs. Steering input is changed and the lighter wheels just react faster to changes in the road.
If you're not looking for it, I doubt you'd feel the difference, but the more experienced drivers should be able to feel the difference.
-Ted
04-12-04, 02:51 PM
#7
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I didn't notice much of a straightline hit with my new setup (43lb fronts, 45 lb rears), but the car definitely FEELS different in the steering/ride/handling department. The steering is heavier and the car does not feel as nimble, so IMO, heavier wheels are very noticeable.
Full review of my new setup coming.....
Full review of my new setup coming.....
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04-12-04, 04:35 PM
#14
Rotary Freak
Originally posted by rynberg
I didn't notice much of a straightline hit with my new setup (43lb fronts, 45 lb rears), but the car definitely FEELS different in the steering/ride/handling department. The steering is heavier and the car does not feel as nimble, so IMO, heavier wheels are very noticeable.
Full review of my new setup coming.....
I didn't notice much of a straightline hit with my new setup (43lb fronts, 45 lb rears), but the car definitely FEELS different in the steering/ride/handling department. The steering is heavier and the car does not feel as nimble, so IMO, heavier wheels are very noticeable.
Full review of my new setup coming.....
Tyler, Thanks for posting your wheel weights. I was thinking about PMing you but you beat me to it. My heavy-*** wheels are 48lb front and 50lb rear. I think they are made out of polished lead
I'm running KumHO 235/40/18 & 265/35/18(Yeah, they suck but they came with the wheels...$1700 shipped.)Last edited by jpandes; 04-12-04 at 04:38 PM.
04-13-04, 02:29 PM
#16
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Actually a heavy wheel is quite a bit different from adding a 150lb passenger. Passenger weight (although 150lb is a lot more than say 40lb increase from heavier wheels) is sprung weight. Wheels are both unsprung and rotational.
Heavy wheels require more force to start spinning, this will effect your acceleration and force applied to your clutch. In higher horsepower applications your acceleration may stay the same or improve with larger and heavier wheels since you gain additional traction.
They also require more force to stop the spinning or slow it down, this will effect your braking. Depending on your brakes you may not notice it much to begin with but heavier wheels in most cases will speed up brake fade.
Heavy wheels require more force to start spinning, this will effect your acceleration and force applied to your clutch. In higher horsepower applications your acceleration may stay the same or improve with larger and heavier wheels since you gain additional traction.
They also require more force to stop the spinning or slow it down, this will effect your braking. Depending on your brakes you may not notice it much to begin with but heavier wheels in most cases will speed up brake fade.
04-13-04, 02:40 PM
#17
Originally posted by TracyRX7
Actually a heavy wheel is quite a bit different from adding a 150lb passenger. Passenger weight (although 150lb is a lot more than say 40lb increase from heavier wheels) is sprung weight. Wheels are both unsprung and rotational.
Heavy wheels require more force to start spinning, this will effect your acceleration and force applied to your clutch. In higher horsepower applications your acceleration may stay the same or improve with larger and heavier wheels since you gain additional traction.
They also require more force to stop the spinning or slow it down, this will effect your braking. Depending on your brakes you may not notice it much to begin with but heavier wheels in most cases will speed up brake fade.
Actually a heavy wheel is quite a bit different from adding a 150lb passenger. Passenger weight (although 150lb is a lot more than say 40lb increase from heavier wheels) is sprung weight. Wheels are both unsprung and rotational.
Heavy wheels require more force to start spinning, this will effect your acceleration and force applied to your clutch. In higher horsepower applications your acceleration may stay the same or improve with larger and heavier wheels since you gain additional traction.
They also require more force to stop the spinning or slow it down, this will effect your braking. Depending on your brakes you may not notice it much to begin with but heavier wheels in most cases will speed up brake fade.
04-13-04, 02:42 PM
#18
Originally posted by jimlab
Just to throw a little nitromethane on the fire...
Everything that I've read and heard says that there is no "rule" or "ratio" of sprung weight to unsprung weight where weight reduction or addition is concerned. For all intents and purposes, as far as top speed and acceleration are concerned, adding or reducing unsprung weight and sprung weight are treated equally as "curb weight". In other words, any benefit from unsprung weight reduction towards increased MPH or reduced ET will be exactly the same as if the weight had been removed from the chassis.
Where unsprung weight makes a significant difference is in the ability of the damping system (shocks and springs) to control the momentum of the wheel, tire, brake rotor and caliper and anything else that moves when the suspension cycles. A lighter combination is easier to control than a heavier combination, obviously. This improves handling by keeping the tires in full contact with the road a larger percentage of the time, increasing traction. This can also affect ride comfort, because a stiffer shock and spring combination will usually be required to control a heavier wheel and tire combination.
Just to throw a little nitromethane on the fire...
Everything that I've read and heard says that there is no "rule" or "ratio" of sprung weight to unsprung weight where weight reduction or addition is concerned. For all intents and purposes, as far as top speed and acceleration are concerned, adding or reducing unsprung weight and sprung weight are treated equally as "curb weight". In other words, any benefit from unsprung weight reduction towards increased MPH or reduced ET will be exactly the same as if the weight had been removed from the chassis.
Where unsprung weight makes a significant difference is in the ability of the damping system (shocks and springs) to control the momentum of the wheel, tire, brake rotor and caliper and anything else that moves when the suspension cycles. A lighter combination is easier to control than a heavier combination, obviously. This improves handling by keeping the tires in full contact with the road a larger percentage of the time, increasing traction. This can also affect ride comfort, because a stiffer shock and spring combination will usually be required to control a heavier wheel and tire combination.
04-13-04, 02:49 PM
#19
The initial question was about heavier wheels. Changing sizes throws a whole new wrinkle into the picture. You can't just compare the weight to handling if you are changing diameters, widths, and tires.
My initial answer was for a heavier wheel, assuming the same size. I still don't think there would be that much difference. Of course, not many of us are gong to replace a stock rim with another stock sized rim thats heavier. Most people are going with 17's or 18's.
My initial answer was for a heavier wheel, assuming the same size. I still don't think there would be that much difference. Of course, not many of us are gong to replace a stock rim with another stock sized rim thats heavier. Most people are going with 17's or 18's.
Last edited by adam c; 04-13-04 at 03:12 PM.
04-13-04, 02:52 PM
#20
Lives on the Forum
Originally posted by Mahjik
However, no one (as far as the threads I've seen) have ever put up any data supporting either side (as far as acceleration, not necessarily handling).
However, no one (as far as the threads I've seen) have ever put up any data supporting either side (as far as acceleration, not necessarily handling).
Acceleration is easy: Drag the car with the same tires on wheels of different weights. It's been proven without a doubt that lighter wheels give faster ET's. Handling is not so cut and dry but rest assured the lighter wheel is a noticeable improvment in acceleration, braking, turn in and the ability to follow bumps. Like TracyRX7 said wheels are unsprung weight. Keeping them light pays big dividends when performance is the purpose.Everybody understands how a lightweight flywheel helps engine response, right? Lighter weight wheels give exactly the same advantage though it is not quite as pronounced since the wheels turn at axle speed and not engine speed. But since the wheels are lighter the engine doesn't have to work as hard to accelerate them, the brakes don't have to work as hard to convince them to stop, the dampers don't have to work as hard to keep them in firm contact with the ground and the driver doesn't have to work as hard to make them change direction. There's a reason race teams are willing to spend $$$$ to save just a couple pounds on a wheel.
04-13-04, 03:11 PM
#21
Originally posted by DamonB
I'll start looking for some data to post then Acceleration is easy: Drag the car with the same tires on wheels of different weights. It's been proven without a doubt that lighter wheels give faster ET's. Handling is not so cut and dry but rest assured the lighter wheel is a noticeable improvment in acceleration, braking, turn in and the ability to follow bumps. Like TracyRX7 said wheels are unsprung weight. Keeping them light pays big dividends when performance is the purpose.
Everybody understands how a lightweight flywheel helps engine response, right? Lighter weight wheels give exactly the same advantage though it is not quite as pronounced since the wheels turn at axle speed and not engine speed. But since the wheels are lighter the engine doesn't have to work as hard to accelerate them, the brakes don't have to work as hard to convince them to stop, the dampers don't have to work as hard to keep them in firm contact with the ground and the driver doesn't have to work as hard to make them change direction. There's a reason race teams are willing to spend $$$$ to save just a couple pounds on a wheel.
I'll start looking for some data to post then
Acceleration is easy: Drag the car with the same tires on wheels of different weights. It's been proven without a doubt that lighter wheels give faster ET's. Handling is not so cut and dry but rest assured the lighter wheel is a noticeable improvment in acceleration, braking, turn in and the ability to follow bumps. Like TracyRX7 said wheels are unsprung weight. Keeping them light pays big dividends when performance is the purpose.Everybody understands how a lightweight flywheel helps engine response, right? Lighter weight wheels give exactly the same advantage though it is not quite as pronounced since the wheels turn at axle speed and not engine speed. But since the wheels are lighter the engine doesn't have to work as hard to accelerate them, the brakes don't have to work as hard to convince them to stop, the dampers don't have to work as hard to keep them in firm contact with the ground and the driver doesn't have to work as hard to make them change direction. There's a reason race teams are willing to spend $$$$ to save just a couple pounds on a wheel.
While there is some difference, will it be noticeable on the street? As far as acceleration and power is concerned I still say I doubt he'll notice any difference at all.
04-13-04, 03:25 PM
#22
Lives on the Forum
This board is proof that owners don't think in terms of getting groceries. If they did there would be no need for aftermarket bushings, adjustable coil over kits, adjustable dampers, aftermarket sway bars, big brake kits, single turbos, wide tires or any other performance mod people spend money on. A perfectly stock FD already has more performance than 95% of people can actually use.
I will be the first to say I think it ridiculous that people will spend five figures on performance mods and the car never sees a racetrack. But the mentality always seems to be towards performance whether the owner really knows what that is or ever practices putting it to use.
I will be the first to say I think it ridiculous that people will spend five figures on performance mods and the car never sees a racetrack. But the mentality always seems to be towards performance whether the owner really knows what that is or ever practices putting it to use.
04-13-04, 03:35 PM
#23
Originally posted by DamonB
This board is proof that owners don't think in terms of getting groceries.
This board is proof that owners don't think in terms of getting groceries.
Originally posted by moehler
My question is: For a street driven car, how much does heavier (~25lbs) wheels really degrade performance?
My question is: For a street driven car, how much does heavier (~25lbs) wheels really degrade performance?
Originally posted by DamonB
If they did there would be no need for aftermarket bushings, adjustable coil over kits, adjustable dampers, aftermarket sway bars, big brake kits, single turbos, wide tires or any other performance mod people spend money on.
If they did there would be no need for aftermarket bushings, adjustable coil over kits, adjustable dampers, aftermarket sway bars, big brake kits, single turbos, wide tires or any other performance mod people spend money on.
There are only a select few on here that actually "use what they have". The rest just do it so when someone asks what they have done, they can bust off a laundry list of mods.
Originally posted by DamonB
A perfectly stock FD already has more performance than 95% of people can actually use.
A perfectly stock FD already has more performance than 95% of people can actually use.
Originally posted by DamonB
I will be the first to say I think it ridiculous that people will spend five figures on performance mods and the car never sees a racetrack. But the mentality always seems to be towards performance whether the owner really knows what that is or ever practices putting it to use.
I will be the first to say I think it ridiculous that people will spend five figures on performance mods and the car never sees a racetrack. But the mentality always seems to be towards performance whether the owner really knows what that is or ever practices putting it to use.
04-13-04, 03:42 PM
#24
Yellow Dragon is no more
Heavy wheels will change the character of the car ... especially if the offset is not completely correct. I had a set of wheels on the car when I first got it that were 17s, heavy, and wrong offset -- too far outward. Anyway, when I put stock wheels on the car it felt so much lighter and more nibble. You could feel the difference in the steering wheel-no problem.
04-13-04, 03:44 PM
#25
Lives on the Forum
Mahjik, that's my point. If people are willing to spend such sums of money and insist upon increasing the performance then they should go for a lighter wheel while they are at it. They'll certainly notice that before the difference in adjustment on $2000 shocks. Not trying to be argumentative.