Help choosing a coilover setup v493280.291
03-03-07, 10:11 PM
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Lucky
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Help choosing a coilover setup v493280.291
Hi everyone,
Most of my communication is done through pm's. rynberg and others, I thank you for your help. I have yet again come to a brick wall. I was all but ready to purchase a set of Tein Flex's when I asked myself the last important question (maybe which should have been the first). Will they get the job done? For 99% of those asking this question, I believe the answer is yes. But, am I in that 1%? After rigorous searching I found 2 road racers who are doing now what I will be doing. While searching I found this post by rynberg so here it goes.
This was taken from
Link.
1. HPDE's on Sebring International Raceway and other tracks with this group (car will be towed) SafeMotorsports
2. Budget is not an issue.
3. Experience? 0. However, my instructor (who also happens to be family and will also be driving the car has an excessive amount of experience: Auto-x victories, days of seat time at Sebring, PCA Instructor, etc.) will be there to guide me.
4. 450-500rwhp
5. None but the current R1 suspension.
Now then,
In this thread (Link here, Fritz's comment is mid/lower in the page.) Fritz Flynn says:
Also, another person who is currently out there tracking their FD with much success runs JIC FLT-A2 adjustable Coilover/Dampers (14kg/mm front and 12kg/mm rear rates).
Now another racer by the name of Howard Coleman (Whom I also have to thank for letting me pick his brain about Methanol) has done a plethora of comments on these threads and recommends a much lower rate (User name 65Imp's thread that contains Fritz's comments has a great quote from Howard). However his comments seem to be more geared towards those running on the street with light track duty where as I will be strictly track.
Responding to the above, I will be running 18x10 285/30's at the track. The purchase of my CCW's is what prompted my learning curve of coilover set ups. Flex's are rated at 10/8. While out my first few times I do realize that I may not encounter my "inner fender being eaten alive" however, my co-driver/instructor will most likely encounter this situation should I go with the Teins.
So everyone, what should I do? Any particular brands or spring rates you recommend? Those I have already pmed with, please dont hesitate to respond here as well, as your input is greatly appreciated.
Thanks everyone,
~James
Most of my communication is done through pm's. rynberg and others, I thank you for your help. I have yet again come to a brick wall. I was all but ready to purchase a set of Tein Flex's when I asked myself the last important question (maybe which should have been the first). Will they get the job done? For 99% of those asking this question, I believe the answer is yes. But, am I in that 1%? After rigorous searching I found 2 road racers who are doing now what I will be doing. While searching I found this post by rynberg so here it goes.
Originally Posted by rynberg
1. What are your realistic intended uses for your car?
2. What is your budget?
3. If you say track use, how much track experience do you have?
4. How much power do you have?
5. What other suspension or wheel modifications do you have?
Start by answering those five questions honestly. Then we can help you.
2. What is your budget?
3. If you say track use, how much track experience do you have?
4. How much power do you have?
5. What other suspension or wheel modifications do you have?
Start by answering those five questions honestly. Then we can help you.
Link.
1. HPDE's on Sebring International Raceway and other tracks with this group (car will be towed) SafeMotorsports
2. Budget is not an issue.
3. Experience? 0. However, my instructor (who also happens to be family and will also be driving the car has an excessive amount of experience: Auto-x victories, days of seat time at Sebring, PCA Instructor, etc.) will be there to guide me.
4. 450-500rwhp
5. None but the current R1 suspension.
Now then,
In this thread (Link here, Fritz's comment is mid/lower in the page.) Fritz Flynn says:
Originally Posted by Fritz Flynn
If you're running slicks on 18 x 10 wheels spring rates
of anything less than 750 front and 550 rear will slow you down not to
mention the tires will eat your inner fenders alive.
If the tire is sticky the spring rate needs to be increased PERIOD.
Sure with stock wheels and hoosiers you can get away with running some 500
front and 400 spring rates but anything lower and you're wasting your time
waiting for the car to take a set. The idea is to get the car turned in
and pointed (slip angle) then floor it and slide out to track out. If the
spring rate is not optimal you'll waste too much time waiting for the car
to take a set and get pointed that by the time you roll back into the gas
you've lost your momentum and the car will not be on the edge of traction
until you exit if at all through the rest of the corner.
The japanese coilovers have higher spring rates because they're designed
for racing. Not many folks in Japan are racing on stock size wheels and
if they are they are loosing badly hehe. If you're running a staggered
wheel tire combo I think equal springs might be a good idea but I'm not
going to pretend I'm smarter than the engineers that are designing those
coilovers. However from experience stickier tires equal higher spring
rates and 900lb springs are not that radical. When I tracked Brad Barbers
car it had 1000 front 700 rear springs and it was very fast even on the
less than optimal tires I would use. I'll admit it was terrible in the
rain but had I ever run it with some new slicks it would of been DEADLY.
Basically what I'm trying to say is there is no BEST coilover it depends
primarily on how sticky your tires are, shock valving, how smooth the
track is etc....
Tein Flex coilovers are fine but if you're running some fat sticky tires
they won't get her done.
of anything less than 750 front and 550 rear will slow you down not to
mention the tires will eat your inner fenders alive.
If the tire is sticky the spring rate needs to be increased PERIOD.
Sure with stock wheels and hoosiers you can get away with running some 500
front and 400 spring rates but anything lower and you're wasting your time
waiting for the car to take a set. The idea is to get the car turned in
and pointed (slip angle) then floor it and slide out to track out. If the
spring rate is not optimal you'll waste too much time waiting for the car
to take a set and get pointed that by the time you roll back into the gas
you've lost your momentum and the car will not be on the edge of traction
until you exit if at all through the rest of the corner.
The japanese coilovers have higher spring rates because they're designed
for racing. Not many folks in Japan are racing on stock size wheels and
if they are they are loosing badly hehe. If you're running a staggered
wheel tire combo I think equal springs might be a good idea but I'm not
going to pretend I'm smarter than the engineers that are designing those
coilovers. However from experience stickier tires equal higher spring
rates and 900lb springs are not that radical. When I tracked Brad Barbers
car it had 1000 front 700 rear springs and it was very fast even on the
less than optimal tires I would use. I'll admit it was terrible in the
rain but had I ever run it with some new slicks it would of been DEADLY.
Basically what I'm trying to say is there is no BEST coilover it depends
primarily on how sticky your tires are, shock valving, how smooth the
track is etc....
Tein Flex coilovers are fine but if you're running some fat sticky tires
they won't get her done.
Now another racer by the name of Howard Coleman (Whom I also have to thank for letting me pick his brain about Methanol) has done a plethora of comments on these threads and recommends a much lower rate (User name 65Imp's thread that contains Fritz's comments has a great quote from Howard). However his comments seem to be more geared towards those running on the street with light track duty where as I will be strictly track.
Responding to the above, I will be running 18x10 285/30's at the track. The purchase of my CCW's is what prompted my learning curve of coilover set ups. Flex's are rated at 10/8. While out my first few times I do realize that I may not encounter my "inner fender being eaten alive" however, my co-driver/instructor will most likely encounter this situation should I go with the Teins.
So everyone, what should I do? Any particular brands or spring rates you recommend? Those I have already pmed with, please dont hesitate to respond here as well, as your input is greatly appreciated.
Thanks everyone,
~James
03-03-07, 11:07 PM
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Personally, I think with zero track experience and that much hp, that you better get some events in with the stock suspension. You are not in the same place as Fritz is (the guy has THOUSANDS of track miles on FDs). Really stiff springs + lots of hp + inexperience = wrecked FD IMO.
If you go with the Tein Flex, you can go with stiffer springs later and have the dampers revalved. Or you can sell them and buy something different.
I am really serious about saying do NOT go on the track as a virgin with 500+ lb springs and that much hp.
If you go with the Tein Flex, you can go with stiffer springs later and have the dampers revalved. Or you can sell them and buy something different.
I am really serious about saying do NOT go on the track as a virgin with 500+ lb springs and that much hp.
03-03-07, 11:43 PM
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Lucky
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So you think stock rubber and stock suspension for the first several events? (Yes I realize Fritz has thousands of hours on the track)
Even with strict instruction and a very level head just dont do it? I have played with my FD as stock for 5 years now and decided to go all out and dedicate it to the track. Should I just turn down the boost and keep the car around 350-400rwhp? Even then, should I still keep the stock setup?
rynberg, as always, I value your input.
Even with strict instruction and a very level head just dont do it? I have played with my FD as stock for 5 years now and decided to go all out and dedicate it to the track. Should I just turn down the boost and keep the car around 350-400rwhp? Even then, should I still keep the stock setup?
rynberg, as always, I value your input.
03-04-07, 01:17 AM
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Woah, when you said 500+ rwhp, I assumed an LS-X conversion. I don't think the powerband and response that comes with that much hp on a 13B will be controllable on a road course. Aside from that, I doubt you would make it 1/2 a session without overheating.
I think it would be VERY wise to run as low of boost as possible with whatever large turbo you are running. And yes, I think you should learn on stock suspension (at least a couple of events). It will be much more forgiving with your car's setup.
But hey, maybe people think I'm way too conservative here and others may tell you to strap on the coilovers and run 400+ rwhp at the track. Personally I think that would be like handing a 3-year old a gun (no offense meant at all). Learn the basics of track driving before running a setup designed for an experienced track driver to use.
I think it would be VERY wise to run as low of boost as possible with whatever large turbo you are running. And yes, I think you should learn on stock suspension (at least a couple of events). It will be much more forgiving with your car's setup.
But hey, maybe people think I'm way too conservative here and others may tell you to strap on the coilovers and run 400+ rwhp at the track. Personally I think that would be like handing a 3-year old a gun (no offense meant at all). Learn the basics of track driving before running a setup designed for an experienced track driver to use.
03-04-07, 01:38 AM
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Lucky
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I am planning on running 10-12psi (perhaps I should just stick to 10) which would put out on the lower spectrum of power we have been discussing. Now when it comes to heat, I am running a V-mount and should heat still be to much, I will put on some sort of auxilary injection later on. I will heed your advice on my first few events.
That aside, once I have several events under my belt, what route should I then take? Still go for the flex's, deal with some fender rubbing, and then work my way up to something stiffer? Or just once I am ready for the upgrade, step it up?
I hope others put their .02 in as well, but of course it is 2:30 in the morning
.
That aside, once I have several events under my belt, what route should I then take? Still go for the flex's, deal with some fender rubbing, and then work my way up to something stiffer? Or just once I am ready for the upgrade, step it up?
I hope others put their .02 in as well, but of course it is 2:30 in the morning
.
03-04-07, 02:00 AM
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I greatly value Fritz's opinion but I know there several guys out there running Flex-type spring rates and not having problems with fenders, etc. I think the Flex is a great jumping point from the stock suspension. The Flex have good resale too if you decide to sell after a while.
The v-mount will help....but you have to understand that running 400+ rwhp out of a 13B for 20+ minutes straight is a LOT to ask of a cooling system. I hope you have a dual oil-cooler upgrade planned as well.
The v-mount will help....but you have to understand that running 400+ rwhp out of a 13B for 20+ minutes straight is a LOT to ask of a cooling system. I hope you have a dual oil-cooler upgrade planned as well.
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03-04-07, 03:47 AM
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not to but in.. but i would upgrade the 2 you already have if your going all out as a track car. (i have also heard of people putting in ps coolers in track fd's.)
03-05-07, 02:44 AM
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The dual stock coolers are adequate for track use up to 80F, maybe 85F ambient temps. Higher horsepower or higher ambient temps really require either ducted 19-row coolers or unducted 25-row coolers. You should run an oil temp gauge and see what you are running with the stock coolers before spending money though....
03-05-07, 07:54 AM
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Lucky
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The gauge is already installed (along with several others). But here in Florida ambient temps can be much higher then 85, especially on the track surface. Hopefully in May it wont be to hot so I can log some data without worry!
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