Agent_D

iTrader: (2)

I'm looking for a set of entry level track/autocross coilovers. I don't really have street use in mind so much, I want a set of reliable, functional, no bs coilovers. I'm not looking to spend a lot of money, but I also don't want the cheap sets that have stupid quirks like weird damping adjustments and improper damper setting (mentioned in a previous thread, Ksport coilovers with a damper that was stiffer at full soft than another at full stiff).

That said, the only setup I've seen that people have had good things to say about for the price is the SPL Parts coilovers, about $1100 plus shipping. But I would like some opinions of people who have more experience with coilover setups from entry level to race level.

TIA for info

Black91n/a

First thing's first, are you ready for coilovers? Have you done the other stuff like bushings, sways, rear alignment bits and so on? If not, consider spending your money there first. Coilovers give you the ability to lower the car quite a bit, and anything over about 1" drop will require rear camber correction. Also, if you're just starting out, it's best to invest in seat time rather than mods, and if the car's still quite stock, put the money into reliability mods like more cooling.

Dampers (shocks/struts) are the 2nd most important part of making a car fast and handle well (second only to tires), so it's not worth it to cheap out. Basically anything under $1000 will be absolute garbage. Stuff under $1500 is hit and miss, you definitely need to do your homework there. While it's a bit out of your price range, I've had very good sucess with my Tein Flex on street and on track. I did change the front springs to 7kg/mm from the 6kg/mm that they come with. With an RB front bar and stock rear bar it handles very nicely with just a touch of understeer, which is much safer to learn on. I've had a few driving instructors at the track now comment that my car handles quite well. Lots of Miata and a number of FD drivers use them as street/track coilovers and are really happy with them. They've also got the benefit that they're rebuildable and re-valveable in the US, whereas many others will just sell you a new shock, which can be more expensive and means that you're screwed if you want to change your spring rates much. You really can't go wrong with them.

If you really must spend less, look at Stance, they seem to be the best of the cheap stuff, but I've got no experience with them, but get the optional 8/6 rates. You honestly don't need to be stiffer than that, and that's softer than I'd prefer. I've got 7/5 and it handles great with some compliance which will help grip on rough surfaces. It's not like I've got much body roll or anything either, even with race tires.

Agent_D

iTrader: (2)

First, I have considerable amounts of seat time and experience. Second, yes the car has been taken completely apart and delrin bushings have been used. Here is a mod list of my car that I should've posted to start with.

1986 RX-7 Base - Fully Stripped - 2200lbs with 1/2 tank gas
S5 motor, TII 5 lug conversion, UOR underdrive pulley, thermal pellet bypass, custom intake, modded ported TB and S5 intake manifolds, Magnecor 10mm spark wires, Mazdaspeed coolant mod, Koyo N-Flow radiator, Mazdaspeed 1.3bar rad cap, Samco rad hoses, taurus e-fan, premix, Mazdaspeed oil pan baffle plate, alt dual pulley, CS SS clutch line, CS SS oil cooler lines, CS rad panel, CS header, CS 2.5" pre silencer, CS catback, 100% removed emissions, 100% removed a/c and heater systems, ACT 9.5lb flywheel, TII tranny, Tanabe lower arm bar, F/R strut bars, delrin motor/tranny/diff/rear subframe mounts, delrin f/r control arm bushings, delrin dtss eliminators, competition front diff mount, Walbro fuel pump, N/A LSD differential.

The walbro is in but will be replaced with a stock pump because it just makes the car run insanely rich without some kind of aftermarket FPR or fuel control unit + wideband.

So yea, I have the experience in seat and with the car's workings, I just don't have a lot of experience with coilovers/dampers. I was going to start with 9kg/7kg spring rates. Before I buy the coilovers I will be buying suspension techniques front and rear sway bars, and the Gacchiri body supports for more stiffness. I will be running on 17x8 +33 wheels with 245/40 or 245/45/17 Hankook Ventus RS2's or Azenis 615's for the most part to keep some sanity on the tread life, or perhaps get R compounds and switch between wheels.

Anyways, that should make it a little clearer on how the car is setup now and what would be a good match. I will also be installing rear subframe spacers for less subframe movement, and will either get spherical rear control arm bearings and camber adjusters to go with, or a camber adjusting link, but am leaning towards replacing the delrin control arm bushings with the spherical bearings and the camber adjusters for adjustment on each wheel independently.

TIA again for info.

CWestFD3S

iTrader: (49)

I've had good results with the Tein Flex's on my FD...I haven't had a chance to check the DG5s on my FC out on the track yet but I definately need to dial those in even before going to the track. Also I hear good things about the Powered by max coilovers. There are some people on the forums from SD,CA that gave me some really informative feedback and those will probably be the set I test out on my gf's FC...Hope that helps...GL

Agent_D

iTrader: (2)

I believe I'll be going with the SPL Parts (KTS) coilovers for now. I have been searching ever since I posted this, and I haven't heard anything bad about them from anyone who has bought them, they also say SPL has amazing customer service, and they can rebuild them as well.

They were recommended highly for an entry level setup as an introduction to coilovers and how to adjust suspension settings on top of being great coilovers. In case you were wondernig www.splparts.com you click enter of course, click on the "other" menu on the left, then suspension menu on the left, and then RX-7 FC3S. Has the info and a pic of them, since I can't directly link the page.

Here is a link to a damper dyno they took on their Z32 coilovers rear damper compared to Tein RA. http://www.splparts.com/main4/parts/...ynoRearZ32.jpg

If you browse around the other cars coilover setups they have the dyno charts for the dampers on front and rear as well.

Black91n/a

That graph doesn't look too bad, but I note that the rebound is pretty much linear, where a digressive curve is better. Also, I don't know how long they've been doing coilovers, and while I think they've been doing suspension arms and such well for a while, dampers are an entirely different, much more complicated thing to get right, and even the top names can't get it 100% right, so the cheapie stuff is often very far off of right. There's lots of little pieces that need to be made with incredible precision with strict quality control to get the best performance and longevity, and unfortunately it's exactly those areas that get skimped on with the cheap stuff, because you can't see them since they're on the inside. Now I'm not saying this about the SPL in particular, since I really don't know anything about them, but just be cautious of the cheaper stuff in general.

Just a note on suspension reviews:

Taking your information from other peoples reviews is fraught with danger and it could well contain erroneous information. First of all ANYTHING will feel great compared to a 20 year old worn out suspension. Different people will have different sensitivities and tolerances to vibrations, harshness and so on. The roads they drive on will have an impact too, as someone driving on smooth, well maintained roads won’t notice a reduction of ride quality nearly as much as someone driving on roads that are covered in potholes. Also consider the use of the car, is it a daily driver, or a track car driven only occasionally on the street? Consider experience too, do they have any basis of comparison other than worn out stock stuff, or is this their second, third, fourth different product? Also, do they have any other basis of comparison to other vehicles, while this isn’t good for direct comparisons, it’ll probably make them a better judge of the change. Another key thing, how many miles do they have on them? I like to hear from people years later after putting tens of thousands of miles on them, that'll help assure you that yours will last. Not to pick of drifters, but I’ve often heard them say that the car is great, then admit that it routinely bottoms and scrapes, that the tires rub constantly and such things, so keep that in mind. I could go on and on, but just try to keep in mind how they differ from you and how that could affect the result or their perception of the result.

I really feel that you're making a mistake going that stiff, especially on street tires. You're probably going to be sacrificing grip because of the stiffness. For comparison, here's a couple pics of my car with 7/5 springs, RB front bar, stock rear bar on 225/50/15 R compound tires in the middle of a couple corners. Notice that it's not like there's excessive body roll or anything with the softer setup.

Food for thought.

Agent_D

iTrader: (2)

I'll have to call SPL to see if they offer different spring rates for their setup. I'm going to assume they made the setup around the 9/7 spring rates but I could be wrong so I'll find out.

Your car looks good mid corner, especially compared to this pic lol. back a while ago, driving what was our daily driver at the time, an S5 vert on stock suspension and PU bushings with 205/50/15 Hankook Ventus RS2's.

Black91n/a

Ouch, that's a lot of roll, but then again an S5 vert is the heaviest FC there ever was (not that my car's particulary light right now, probably a bit over 2750lbs in those pics).

Those SPL's, if they last a decently long time and are consistent side to side and front to back (unlike the referenced K Sports: http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showt...hp?t=123666252 ), they should be fine. But I really don't know anything about them, so I can't comment on them in particular, but I think they're a relative newcomer to coilovers, and I'm always EXTREMELY skeptical about the performance of the newcomers to the field, especially if they're going for the cheap market.

Almost any coilover can handle the track ok, but the good ones will make the car easier to drive, more stable and faster.

Even if they won't sell you any with softer rates, they'll probably sell you springs. If you can't get them to give you different rates right away for less than about $100/end, then maybe look at getting Eibach springs, since they're probably much better springs anyway (although they may not fit right if SPL is using metric springs). If you need metric springs and they won't sell you any, you can definetely get Tein springs. If you want to go with 7/5 rates, you might be able to re-use the rears as the fronts and cut down on costs (depending on length, size). Most coilover makers say that you can go +/- 2kg/mm without needing a re-valve, so that should work with those, but that's going to add to the cost (figure ~$50/spring) vs. getting something that starts out with better rates.

If you ever do go with race tires, I suggest 15" rims and 225/45/15's since it gives better gearing, less weight, less inertia and a lower CG for faster times, plus they're cheaper and easier to pack in the car. 15x8's would be preferable, but are hard to get your hands on and are expensive (don't use the Slipstreams, they broke on me due to a design flaw).

Agent_D

iTrader: (2)

I don't think SPL is a newcomer, the forum posts I dug up ranged from 2003/4 to now, in reference to their coilovers. I don't know if that counts as fairly new or not. I'll look into 15's and see what I can find, if I can't find 15x8 for a decent price, I'll stick with getting the 17x8's until I can find a good set. Appreciate all your help and advice.

Edit: I forgot to ask, what was the problem with the Rota Slipstreams? So far they are the only 15x8's I can find.

Black91n/a

2003/4 is reasonably recent, that's about when a lot of the K-Sport, Megan Racing, D2, etc coilovers came out. Compare that to the 20+ years that some of the other companies have been doing it and yes, they're a newcomer.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/p...ries_82_Wheels

I'm not sure if they're available in the right offset and will clear the brakes, but it's worth a shot. Other than that it gets a bunch more expensive. The Rotas have some rectangular cutouts on the back of the hub area that leaves some VERY thin walls around the stud holes. ALL of my wheels were like that, one cracked at the track, but luckily I found out before it failed completely so I was able to remove them and keep going on my street tires. I'd think that 15x7's and 225/45/15's are probably faster than 17x8's and 225/45/17's, maybe even faster than 245/40/17's, especially on an NA.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

if you're going to spend $1500, why not just start with something good, like koni yellows or bilsteins?

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

Josh18_2k

iTrader: (3)

i do believe SPL parts are for drifting- yes theres a difference. low end drifitng coilovers dont car about progressive damping or any of that. just full highet/alignment adjustability and basic damping adjustment. i'd really get a coilover that isnt marketted towards drifting, like Tein Flex's.
koni yellows (valved for your rates!), ground control sleeves, and camber plates make a good entry level setup.

on another note- go with the individual adjusters, and bearing trailing arm mounts. the center bar adjuster will leave you with uneven camber.
also, you really dont need a rear sway bar, unless you're running staggered tires, which is really only a good idea with a lot of power. so yah stick with stock rear bar, maybe the TII bar, and an adjustable front bar.

Agent_D

iTrader: (2)

Well looking at it, the Bilstein shocks/dampers are actually about the same price as the koni yellows. So from reading what I saw in the article that was linked I'll most likely go with the Bilstein shocks/dampers and ground control coilovers with some camber plates. Most likely will go with the 7/5 spring rates but may choose 8/6, I'm going to do some research on spring rates and see what is a good choice.

Why is a rear upgrade sway bar not necessary? Just curious. I believe both the front and rear ST sway bars are adjustable, and I have mazdatrix adjustable end links on both already.

After I get it all together and going the settings I've chosen, which may or may not be ok, are -2.75 to -3 degrees camber front, -1.75 to -2.25 degrees camber rear, the stock caster on the FC is in acceptable range (which IIRC is between 5 and 7 degrees), either 0 toe or 1/16" toe in front, 0 toe rear. I'm going to see what the ride height is like with the height at optimal level for the front control arms, from what I've read its optimal on cars with suspension similar to FC's to have the front control arms sit perfectly horizontal for a correct roll center, and if I feel the ride height needs to be lowered after I check that, I'm going to try to track down some AWR roll center correction blocks which I'm not sure if they make anymore or not.

I appreciate all your input, it is really helpful along with the links and the like. And I think it's getting closer to a choice of what I'm going to actually put on the car.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

on a rear suspension like the FC, the bigger the rear sway bar the more it acts like its got a solid axle.

it becomes a little bit of a tradeoff between chassis response and grip. no bar, and the car takes longer to respond.

your alignment settings are in the ballpark. tire temps are the key to getting the next 5% out of it. better driver will make a bigger difference than alignment.

spring rates should be something like 350-450F 200-275R, some drivers want it stiffer, and thus faster responding, some like it softer, impact on lap times is really low

Agent_D

iTrader: (2)

7kg/mm is 391.16lb/in for front, 5kg/mm is 279.4lb/in. So thats pretty much in the areas you suggested. Sounds good, and will more than likely be the rates I use.

Honestly I think I would prefer a more responsive chassis and make driving corrections to accommodate the larger rear sway bar. In the end I'll probably drive on both stock and the ST sway bars to see which I like better and compare lap times before I make a final decision.

Josh18_2k

iTrader: (3)

with ST bars from and rear the car is very oversteer happy. with a stagger, its balanced pretty well, but with square setup, you'll be losing the *** end a lot on turn in. the rear just doesnt need much bar at all.
i have ST f/r with the front bar on stiff, the rear is not adjustable. it feels fine with 245/275. my race rubber is square (255 all around), and its a handful trying to keep the back end in line. i'll be installing a TII rear bar whenever i get around to it.

Agent_D

iTrader: (2)

Sounds reasonable, but it might not be a bad thing. If what you're talking about with the oversteer it creates, and that oversteer acts similar to an S2000 (very oversteer happy on turn in and in corner with even minute throttle inputs,) it could be a very valuable training tool for throttle control. I believe the car has a TII one on it atm (previous owner said it got a full TII suspension swap) so I think I'll get the ST F/R set (which is really not very expensive anyways) and then run the car with both rear bars and see which I prefer.

Josh18_2k

iTrader: (3)

i'd suggest putting in jsut the front bar, and drive it like that. then swap the rear, and compare. only change one part at a time when tuning..

Black91n/a

Bilsteins WILL need to be re-valved since they're non-adjustable and come valved for ~stock rates. They're EXCELLENT shocks though, but then you'll be more or less stuck with your spring rate choice. The thing is when you price you Konis, GC's, camber plates and all that, you're in the range of the lower end intergrated coilovers. While Koni Yellows are decent shocks, they're definetely nowhere near the best. Bilsteins are much superior in everything but adjustability.

On the rear bar, some drive without one, some drive with one, it's partly dependant on the driver, very much dependant on the rest of the car's setup. For instance with my car and 7/5 rates, using an RB front bar and stock rear bar, it gives slight understeer for me. I'd skip the rear bar upgrade if I were you. You can always get one later on if you want it stiffer.

If you're going with GC coilovers, you'll need to pick lb/in spring rates, but honestly, there's not enough difference between 400/275 and 7/5 for almost anyone to notice. On the rates, you might think that this is "soft" as others are stiffer, but keep in mind that 400/275 is almost 4x stiffer in front and almost 3x stiffer in the rear compared to stock. That's a HUGE difference.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

yeah try both bars, to a point its driver preference, and its track dependent too.

Agent_D

iTrader: (2)

After talking a bit more with black91 and a few other people. I'm going to go with ground control coilovers with ground control caster/camber plates, and Bilstein dampers. Since Bilstein's are not adjustable I'm going to meet in the middle and go with 8/6 spring rates (445/335) since I won't be able to adjust to a stiffer spring unless I send in for a second revalve. I appreciate everyone's help and input, and I'll post some of my thoughts on a stock rear sway bar vs the ST rear sway bar when I get around to getting them and driving on them.

bioman

Bilsteins are always a good choice.

If you want JDM, try Silk Road.

Kingbob

At that soft of a spring rate rear, I wouldn't bother revalving the rear bilsteins.

FWIW, my ITA miata was VERY winning by it's last owner and it uses the Spec Miata Springs and shocks (750lb/350lb, off the shelf bilstein HDs). We've dominated both time trials we've attended with the car. Admittedly, the 750lb fronts are way underdamped and cause a bad push on turn in. No complaints on the rear. but this is track racing YMMV

Black91n/a

We're talking about a 3x increase in rear spring rate, I wouldn't call that "soft". AWR has a bunch of experience with Bilsteins on FC's, it might be a good idea to talk to them and get their thoughts on it too. They might also do re-valves, and they'd know better what to do for FC valving than Bilstein themselves would.

Agent_D

iTrader: (2)

Sounds like a good idea, I'll have to get in contact with the guys at AWR I want to see if they still sell the roll center correction blocks anyways.