FD New Brake Options
I am really interested in this kit but no one has seemed to address the problems of ducting and pad knockback. These are the only things stopping me from doing the upgrade.
The two sided mounting of the rotor seems to prevent putting any kind of ducting into the rotor eye. I think I would almost prefer the standard style of hat attachment.
The two sided mounting of the rotor seems to prevent putting any kind of ducting into the rotor eye. I think I would almost prefer the standard style of hat attachment.
As far as ducting, the RB guys are clearly trying for a design that doesn't require it. Again, only testing will tell if they've hit their goal.
-ch
I am really interested in this kit but no one has seemed to address the problems of ducting and pad knockback. These are the only things stopping me from doing the upgrade.
The two sided mounting of the rotor seems to prevent putting any kind of ducting into the rotor eye. I think I would almost prefer the standard style of hat attachment.
The two sided mounting of the rotor seems to prevent putting any kind of ducting into the rotor eye. I think I would almost prefer the standard style of hat attachment.
http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=73
For the currently available OEM sized rotors, I am uncertain if this incompatibility with Carbotech (and others) applies to only the two-piece, or both the one-piece and the two-piece. The Subaru guys seem to complain only about the two-piece, and the metallurgy is different between the two.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,279
Likes: 728
From: Florence, Alabama
i will be surprised if ducting is necessary using the RB 1.26 inch thick front rotor. i ran my prior setup (M2-AP 4 piston/Alcon 1.125 inch thick X 13) with no ducting on 5 track days at Brainerd and beat every car i ran with. no brake fade even though the rotors were inferior to the new RB rotors. i had the backing plates on which shielded heat radiation off the inner rotor surface. no fade from 135 mph to 55 repeatedly. i expect the RB's to vastly outperform my APs.
as to RB's closer to stock dimensioned front rotor that's a different question.
we will see shortly.......
as to "certain brakepads" not working, generally you will find they were the wrong heat range for the application.
if you are going to buy into RB's proprietary brake system WHY would you run anything but their pad suggestion??
who cares if brand X or Y does or doesn't "work" w RB's rotors? if you buy proprietary hardware i suggest you should listen to the designer. i love EBC pads and have run nothing but EBC for 8 years. i sold them w my AP brakes.
from working w RB since November 06 on this system i have a great deal of confidence that they are the real deal.
perhaps today the calipers will show and we will shortly start to answer lots of questions.
hc
as to RB's closer to stock dimensioned front rotor that's a different question.
we will see shortly.......
as to "certain brakepads" not working, generally you will find they were the wrong heat range for the application.
if you are going to buy into RB's proprietary brake system WHY would you run anything but their pad suggestion??
who cares if brand X or Y does or doesn't "work" w RB's rotors? if you buy proprietary hardware i suggest you should listen to the designer. i love EBC pads and have run nothing but EBC for 8 years. i sold them w my AP brakes.
from working w RB since November 06 on this system i have a great deal of confidence that they are the real deal.
perhaps today the calipers will show and we will shortly start to answer lots of questions.
hc
i will be surprised if ducting is necessary using the RB 1.26 inch thick front rotor. i ran my prior setup (M2-AP 4 piston/Alcon 1.125 inch thick X 13) with no ducting on 5 track days at Brainerd and beat every car i ran with. no brake fade even though the rotors were inferior to the new RB rotors. i had the backing plates on which shielded heat radiation off the inner rotor surface. no fade from 135 mph to 55 repeatedly. i expect the RB's to vastly outperform my APs.
as to RB's closer to stock dimensioned front rotor that's a different question.
we will see shortly.......
as to "certain brakepads" not working, generally you will find they were the wrong heat range for the application.
if you are going to buy into RB's proprietary brake system WHY would you run anything but their pad suggestion??
who cares if brand X or Y does or doesn't "work" w RB's rotors? if you buy proprietary hardware i suggest you should listen to the designer. i love EBC pads and have run nothing but EBC for 8 years. i sold them w my AP brakes.
from working w RB since November 06 on this system i have a great deal of confidence that they are the real deal.
perhaps today the calipers will show and we will shortly start to answer lots of questions.
hc
as to RB's closer to stock dimensioned front rotor that's a different question.
we will see shortly.......
as to "certain brakepads" not working, generally you will find they were the wrong heat range for the application.
if you are going to buy into RB's proprietary brake system WHY would you run anything but their pad suggestion??
who cares if brand X or Y does or doesn't "work" w RB's rotors? if you buy proprietary hardware i suggest you should listen to the designer. i love EBC pads and have run nothing but EBC for 8 years. i sold them w my AP brakes.
from working w RB since November 06 on this system i have a great deal of confidence that they are the real deal.
perhaps today the calipers will show and we will shortly start to answer lots of questions.
hc
That said, I might find being locked into a particular pad worrisome, because I then lose the ability to take advantage of technical innovation in an important area of the overall system (pad material). There is also a significant lack of price competition for the pads if only one pad works with your expensive BBK.
In this particular case, the problem with certain brake pads appears to be an incompatibility between rotor and pad material, not heat range (check the Subaru forum for more). The presumed advantage associated with the incompatible metallurgy is also not clear to me. Wouldn't a more standard material work just as well (or well enough)? As you say Howard, your old rotors never overheated, and that's without RB's better vaning system. The whole point of this BBK as I understand it is to improve front-rear bias. Is it not possible to do that while using a rotor material that is also compatible with a wide range of pads?
Just my two cents. I'm just looking to express a clear viewpoint, not start a flame war.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,279
Likes: 728
From: Florence, Alabama
"The presumed advantage associated with the incompatible metallurgy is also not clear to me. Wouldn't a more standard material work just as well (or well enough)? As you say Howard, your old rotors never overheated, and that's without RB's better vaning system. The whole point of this BBK as I understand it is to improve front-rear bias."
i appreciate your comments as to flame wars etc. i too have absolutely no interest in that sort of discourse.
while i understand and share your reasoning re being locked in to a single pad that isn't quite the case here. RB recommends certain Hawk pads for example.
secondly, this has been a long thread so if perhaps you have missed a part of it you are in good company. let me make a couple of points.
the single thrust of RB is to make more capable brake systems. more torque. longer. as well as retaining the proper bias. the material the rotors are made of is proprietary. it is much harder to cast. it requires a special casting configuration. the process is more likely to create rejects and therefore is more costly. all for a reason... to make a higher performing rotor.
the results have been tested and i have the data. i cannot share it as it is confidential for a number of reasons.
i can assure you that the company is not going thru this process to lock you into their pads. they are going to all this effort to make a higher capacity brake system.
i made this very point in the first post of this thread... "do not discount the rotor material, it may be one of the most important aspects of the RB design."
that's all i can say on the matter.
if you do a thorough review of RB's ontrack accomplishments you will find racer's are experiencing significantly longer cycle times as to their brake systems.
i expect my calipers tomorrow and will be out shortly thereafter.
hc
i appreciate your comments as to flame wars etc. i too have absolutely no interest in that sort of discourse.
while i understand and share your reasoning re being locked in to a single pad that isn't quite the case here. RB recommends certain Hawk pads for example.
secondly, this has been a long thread so if perhaps you have missed a part of it you are in good company. let me make a couple of points.
the single thrust of RB is to make more capable brake systems. more torque. longer. as well as retaining the proper bias. the material the rotors are made of is proprietary. it is much harder to cast. it requires a special casting configuration. the process is more likely to create rejects and therefore is more costly. all for a reason... to make a higher performing rotor.
the results have been tested and i have the data. i cannot share it as it is confidential for a number of reasons.
i can assure you that the company is not going thru this process to lock you into their pads. they are going to all this effort to make a higher capacity brake system.
i made this very point in the first post of this thread... "do not discount the rotor material, it may be one of the most important aspects of the RB design."
that's all i can say on the matter.
if you do a thorough review of RB's ontrack accomplishments you will find racer's are experiencing significantly longer cycle times as to their brake systems.
i expect my calipers tomorrow and will be out shortly thereafter.
hc
Somehow I missed this issue when reading the thread. this is disappointing because my preferred pad right now is the carbotech xp9 and xp10. How do we find out if new pad materials are going to work or not? I sure dont want to be a guinea pig. What about the new hot compound from raybestos?
And the need to stay away from certain race pads (Carbotech in particular) is a little worrisome.
http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=73
For the currently available OEM sized rotors, I am uncertain if this incompatibility with Carbotech (and others) applies to only the two-piece, or both the one-piece and the two-piece. The Subaru guys seem to complain only about the two-piece, and the metallurgy is different between the two.
http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=73
For the currently available OEM sized rotors, I am uncertain if this incompatibility with Carbotech (and others) applies to only the two-piece, or both the one-piece and the two-piece. The Subaru guys seem to complain only about the two-piece, and the metallurgy is different between the two.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,279
Likes: 728
From: Florence, Alabama
i received the RB440 calipers and associated hardware. according to my digital scale they weigh 5.2 pounds versus my AP5200s at 5.72 pounds. the pad is both a touch longer and .2 of an inch larger radially.
fit and finish is impressive in every aspect.
i am especially impressed w the plan which was to max out every metric within the confines of the FD space. the rotor thickness, for example is max at the OE centerline. the pad area is max w the rotor. they even took a bunch of weight out of the caliper mounting bracket.
pictures later tonight.
i have to say it, wow
howard
fit and finish is impressive in every aspect.
i am especially impressed w the plan which was to max out every metric within the confines of the FD space. the rotor thickness, for example is max at the OE centerline. the pad area is max w the rotor. they even took a bunch of weight out of the caliper mounting bracket.
pictures later tonight.
i have to say it, wow
howard
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,279
Likes: 728
From: Florence, Alabama
agree on the drive V pics but i have a few days before i will be out.
btw, i suggested either chrome or stainless steel as a replacement for the bridgebolt tube...
meanwhile...
hc
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,279
Likes: 728
From: Florence, Alabama
color
you perhaps raise a point of interest, one that this thread might discuss. i personally am not happy w the candy apple metallic powdercoat. i would rather have a genuine red. (the calipers will be also offered in black).
RB has continuously stressed that they LISTEN to the market. everyone may have a different fav color but if we are talking the red family... what do you all want????
as to dust seals, my APs didn't have them. generally they just melt if you generate serious temps at the track but i will let RB hold forth on that.
hc
you perhaps raise a point of interest, one that this thread might discuss. i personally am not happy w the candy apple metallic powdercoat. i would rather have a genuine red. (the calipers will be also offered in black).
RB has continuously stressed that they LISTEN to the market. everyone may have a different fav color but if we are talking the red family... what do you all want????
as to dust seals, my APs didn't have them. generally they just melt if you generate serious temps at the track but i will let RB hold forth on that.
hc
The paint quality on the caliper looks good being metallic and all but I am not sure if the candy apple red will be most people's cup of tea. I am interested in seeing black ones as that is what I have ordered.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 30,807
Likes: 648
From: FL-->NJ/NYC again!
Howard, any idea on how much further outboard they are relative to stock? ie, once your wheels are mounted, is there much less room than with stock calipers? I suppose it's been awhile since you had stock sized rotors and calipers, so I'm not sure you can really answer my question 
WOW is right Howard, these calipers look so rigid, RacingBrake should be proud, i dont care if they only come in lime green, if you dont like it just eastwood the suckers any color you want...........
I ordered the red too, but why try to look "just like" Brembo ??????
I ordered the red too, but why try to look "just like" Brembo ??????