Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

hey Rishie, you had me real scared there for a moment. actually my wife had what turned out to be minor surgery and she is now back running on all, uh, rotors. (well she does driver her own modded FD)

with that report out of the way it is back to brakes.

i have a couple of emails from warren since i posted relating to the fd...

he really did a slick deal for the 350z and wants to do something similar for the fd.

currently the co offers a significant FD upgrade w the better-material directionally-vaned (right and left) one piece rotor. designed from scratch as to material and configuration and reasonably priced.... see Rishie.

secondly, they offer stock dimensioned two piece rotors. these are about 15% lighter have the Convergent Vanes, Center Mount, FORGED aluminum hubs/hats and are made from a proprietary greatly upgraded material. these are the rotors on the NSX that won a couple of weeks ago at Daytona. they are a huge performance upgrade even though they are stock dimensions.

thirdly, warren offers a two piece 328 X 28 (12.9 inches by 1.1 inches thick) for the rear. i am going w these w a 4 piston wilwood and i will probably use a Line Lock as an emergency brake... or make a small rotor on the driveshaft yoke w a spot brake.

finally, warren is excited about making a 324 X 24 (12.8 by .95 inches thick) which he says is the max rotor for the rear to mount the stock OEM caliper and emergency brake. he would then do a 328 X 28 for the front w his 4 piston caliper. the combo would balance out and the ABS would be happy.

this would be the ultimate setup for those who want to keep the E brake, ABS and power brakes yet have Supercar Brakes.

this setup is VERY COOL. warren casts a new rear caliper mounting bracket so you can use your caliper even though the rotor is almost 13 inches. i have not seen this done anywhere before. if you go to his site and look at his package for the rear of the 350Z you will see a picture of the bracket. it is very similar to the FD rear bracket.

BTW, i forgot to mention his aluminum hubs/hats are FORGED not cast.

it just keeps getting better.

howard coleman

ARD T2

iTrader: (22)

well, you know being married it's like you're one person anyways. hehe.

Yups that's just awesome. I've been discussing the same things with Warren and can't wait to see how quickly they respond. This company has had amazing turn around times for engineering and development. i'm so stoked.

Next i'll hit him up about doing the FC chasis. hehe. THe ones I actually own. lolz. But one thing at a time. Don't want to bombard Warren as i'm sure he's a very busy man.

Sorry for the scare. Hope it went well with the wife's surgery.

Laters, Rishie

GoRacer

iTrader: (2)

I allways wanted to do 2-peice OEM size rotors and retain the e-brake. The only company that came close previously is Project Mu but I beleive they only offer the larger JDM sizes.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

as i mentioned RB did a complete re-do for the porky 350Z. if they can stop it they can stop the FD.

here's a thread from a guy who tracks his 350Z and has warren's setup. it is lengthy so i thought i'd just post the links:

http://www.freshalloy.com/site/marke...ke/default.asp
http://forums.freshalloy.com/showpos...1876&postcount

and a picture of the front RB full tilt setup.... that retains the E brake.



howard coleman

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

here's the RB key to running 12.8 inch killer rotors on the rear w OEM calipers and E brake:

a band new purpose cast caliper mounting bracket! this one is for the 350Z



(it doesn't have to be red)

howard coleman

turbogarrett

iTrader: (1)

Figures, I ordered the 99 rear setup a few days ago I'm confused, are there any plans to offer the nice 2 piece rotor for 99 rears?

jimlab

Wow, I never thought I'd see Howard wetting his pants over something like this...

No, you didn't.

BTW, most aftermarket 2-piece rotors use billet aluminum hats so this isn't exactly a new development...

Which is? Most rotors are made from cast iron. How are these any different? Cryo treated? High nickel content? What?

Sounds like this might be a better match for all the existing 13.0" (330mm) front brake kits than the 'RZ-spec' 12.4 x 0.8" (314 x 20mm) rear rotors available from Mazda and Precision Brakes... if it allows retaining the OEM parking brake and balances the piston area increase front to rear...

Having matching rotor diameters is not really the problem. It's the mismatch in the piston area ratio when upgrading to an aftermarket 4- or more-piston front caliper and retaining the stock rear calipers. Even the '99-spec rear calipers don't offer increased piston area. If they can fix that, then they've got something.

ARD T2

iTrader: (22)

We will have two piece replacement 99 spec rotors. Maybe howard got more info from RB, not sure if they are disclosing materials or not. I know the Endless rotors had a higher content of lead. Not sure what's different in these ones.

Thanks, rishie

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i will check to see if the 12.2 diameter might be able to be replicated at a reasonable cost.

what are you running for front brakes? with your engine and Road America's long straights and slow corners you will need a 12.9- 13 inch rotor w 1.1 inch min thickness or you will be in the weeds in 2 laps.

howard coleman

turbogarrett

iTrader: (1)

Not sure yet on the fronts- may have a lead on a Mandeville kit, if not stoptech was the plan. Or maybe you could sell me your m2 kit for cheap

jimlab

Thanks Rishie.

Howard, my post wasn't meant as an attack; just curiousity and a little humor about your "obvious enthusiasm".

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

hey Jim,

yes, when i typed the "i forgot to mention" re forged i was referencing my longish initial post and did forget that i had mentioned it a few paragraphs earlier... old age is creeping up.

you do raise some excellent points. i compelety agree that properly matching piston area front to rear is essential for balance. it certainly is not all about rotor sizing.

as to materials engineering... they really do know their stuff and share some of it on their site. my post was so long i decided to just make general statements. while the exact mix is proprietary they do mention they use lots of carbon. the large amount of carbon makes the casting process more difficult.

if you were to call warren i am confident you would find a comfort as to what he is up to materials-wise.

clearly the company has gone the extra mile as to design. it is my conclusion they correctly realize that material is fundamental to making a better rotor.

in addition, their convergent vane design is easy to draw and more challenging to cast. warren uses a unique vertical rather than a horizontal mold process.

as to the 324 X 24 rear rotor.... warren is figuring out a rotor size in the front to balance out the increased rear leverage and retain the stock 4 piston thus retaining the overall balance.

howard

jimlab

Thanks Howard. I'll take your word that their casting methods and material are better, and obviously functioning vanes on each side (rare in cast 1-piece rotors but typical in aftermarket 2-piece rotors) is a good thing, but the best improvement of their design seems to be the alternating tabs mounting the hat to the rotor allowing more air into the center of the rotor and past the vanes, as well as equalizing the stress on the rotor and hat.

So the stock front calipers would be retained to maintain the piston area ratio front to rear? That was one of the best features of Mandeville's kit (besides price), along with the obvious increase in front rotor diameter/mass to shed heat more quickly.

artowar

iTrader: (1)

Wow, some interesting new go-fast parts! Subscribing to this thread now...

M104-AMG

iTrader: (8)

I'd be very interested in anything that let's me run my collection of 16-inch wheels.

Will any of these options do that, esp. if you're running the stock front caliper with the re-location bracket ?

TIA,
:-) neil

BTW: what does Racing Brake say about brake-pad compatibility and their proprietary rotor material ? Carbotech is saying that their pads weren't designed for Racing Brake's materials. Not saying they don't work, but may not work optimally or it may shift the "sweet spot" (e.g., heat range).

sdoow

Hi, This is Warren from RacingBrake that Howard and Rishie are mentioning. Hello to everyone.

We got into this RX7 brake project through Howard’s inspiration and enthusiasm which means a lot to a relatively unknown brake company like us.

I admire the respect that Howard received from you folks and from my experience in working with him only about two weeks, the diligence and eagerness he demonstrated and the efforts he puts into this project and shared with other RX7 enthusiasts what he found proven that he is well deserved.

I have just noticed user jimlab #32 asked some questions which I like to reply as follows:


BTW, most aftermarket 2-piece rotors use billet aluminum hats so this isn't exactly a new development...

RB rotor hats are made (machined) from "Forged" aluminum blank in stead of cutting from billet (aluminum bar) which is "extruded" and readily available from aluminum mfgrs such as Alcoa or Kaiser. We have to make various "blank" tooling for different sizes of hat. This is not a new development rather it's a process that we all know costs more to make, yet has the benefit of better stiffness and strength than those made from billets that offered by most competitions. RB commits to performance brakes. More and more enthusiasts start to realize that our extra efforts are worthwhile.
http://www.racingbrake.com/main/two-...mbly.asp?i=hat

Which is? Most rotors are made from cast iron. How are these any different? Cryo treated? High nickel content? What?

RB rotors material are alloyed and heated from the base of SAE G3500 gray iron instead of G3000 which is the standard brake material for motor companies and aftermarket but unfortunately very few aftermarket brake meets this standard based on our past experience. Our rotors have higher carbon than regular gray iron for better heat handling but carbon will also weaken the strength of iron, so the alloys (Cu, Cr, Ni, Mo etc) may be added to make up the loss of strength resulting from the increase of carbon contents and enhance performance under extreme heat. But there are more important aspects than just the chemical compositions (% of elements) that predominately dictate the overall performance of a brake disc such as microstructure which deals with the formation (type and size) of graphite (carbon) and the matrix (distribution of pearlite or ferrite), that is beyond the scope of discussion here. Some reference link (scroll to Rotor Material)
http://www.racingbrake.com/main/rotor_is_important.asp

At RacingBrake we believe in the basic material science, therefore we like to heat treat our iron because when you hit the brake, the temperature surged, so we developed a process to heat up the casting higher than the highest brake temperature a rotor can reach, then cool it down. The discs are cut from these “treated’ casting which might have some sort of deformation that is not noticeable with eyes. You may consider this is a process similar to “pre-warp” the rotors then machine from those “warped” castings. This explains to our customers why RB rotors will not warp and are more resistant to wear and heat checks. More on heat treatment but again it’s beyond the scope of our discussion.

The above made us to disbelieve on Cryo treatment which some companies are marketing to teat the rotors on opposite way – cool it down. We don’t have enough experience to comment on Cryo treatment but we know from the experience we had with those companies supplying brakes to professional racing teams (NASCAR) they only use heat-treated rotors, not Cryo.

Link to Cryogenic treatment question asked by an EVO racer
http://forums.racingbrake.com/viewto...highlight=cryo

M104-AMG

iTrader: (8)

Warren, will any of the options allow me to run 16-inch wheels ?

I would like to keep my stock front calipers and use one of your OE brake-relocation kits that allows for a bigger rotor up front, yet keep the 16-inch wheel.

:-) neil

jimlab

Hi Warren, and welcome to the forum. Thanks for taking the time to explain some of the metallurgy used in producing your rotors.

primerGrey

iTrader: (13)

Me too. I think it would take me quite a while to move up from a 16" wheel, if I had a carefully designed, vaned rotor and used it in combination with a good ducting system. A Mandeville re-think might be a good way to go here.

DCrosby

Sorry I'm a technical man, but my budget forces me to be a bottom line kind of guy...

So I'm looking at $499.40 for an OEM FD rotor replacement... Once we start talking about a increases in caliper, that retain the e-brake functionality and ABS, which I'm both not ready to get rid of...
What are we talking about $$ wise for a "Dream Setup" and I realize that different people dream differently... but reading through this there was talk about an upgrade in caliper and rotor, and personally I don't think I'll ever go back to the stock 16" wheels, so anything that fits in 18" wheels should fit the bill....

And personally I go track racing once or twice a year, again due to budget, so I'm interested in maximizing my ability to be competitive when accelerating and breaking, but more importantly I don't want to sacrifice the other 80-90% of the time that I'm just going for a Sunday drive....

Edit: Well I guess there seems to be 2 markets those that want to retain the stock wheels due to weight and $$ to upgrade... and those that don't

OneRotor

iTrader: (3)

When you form the pearlite, are you forming fine or corse pearlite? I'm only asking because like you said, adding more carbon will increase stregnth and hardness, but will reduce ductility and impact resistance, and that you are adding Cu, Cr, Ni, Mo, etc. to get back some ductility and impact resistance. I'm curious about the pearlite size because that will also affect dislocation movement, which for those who dont' know what that means, it affects ductility and hardness and toughness.

ARD T2

iTrader: (22)

The only rotos that will allow for 16" OEM FD Wheels are the currently offerred FD Front two piece rotors. Not sure if RB will be producing a US Spec OEM Two piece rear. That's something I have not mentioned to Warren since we got side tracked on these larger upgraded kits.

If they have the rotor rings I don't see why they couldn't make it. More than likely it will use the same rotor hat as HC's rotor, or the 99 Spec one that we also want to make.

Warren thanks for chiming in. It's great to see a manuf get up on our little community board to express some knowledge.

Thanks, Rishie

M104-AMG

iTrader: (8)

I agree that if they already "hats" made for the FD, it should be easy to fit any diameter rotor.

What I'm talking about are NEW rotors to go with a brake caliper relocation kit like they did with the NSX that allows you to keep the stock wheels:

taken from: http://www.racingbrake.com/main/oe_c...it_compare.asp
------------------
Advantage of RacingBrake OE caliper big brake kits:

1. Built to fit under stock wheels. No larger wheels, wheel spacers, or longer studs to buy and install like competitions’ aluminum caliper kits.
2. Direct bolt-on, easy to install. No additional hardware, no bleeding required.
3. Extremely affordable – Costs only a fraction of an aluminum caliper big brake kit.
4. Low maintenance cost – Retains the use of OE pads with the freedom of choice (stock or aftermarket) at a fraction of those expensive non-standard (FMSI) pads.
5. Our brackets are made of high strength ductile iron and are stronger and stiffer than aluminum bracket.
-------------
:-) neil

turbogarrett

iTrader: (1)

There isn't a whole lot of room as is with the stock wheels and calipers. M2 used to offer a 4 pot kit that fit under stock wheels with a 12.5 rotor, but that wilwood caliper was not nearly as bulky as the stock ones are.

M104-AMG

iTrader: (8)

From my rough measurements, there should be enough room to go to a 12-inch rotor (304.8 or 305mm) with the stock caliper.

I believe the delta in square inches would be about 36.9 sq. inches.

If Racing Brake could make a 12-inch rotor that has better thermal resistance and a rotor with thicker material going inside (by reducing the spacing between the rotor faces) perhaps it would be worthwhile.

How about it Warren / Racing Brake, is a 12-inch rotor worth it up front ? If so, will you make the OE caliper big brake kit ?

I believe there are many of us with stock wheels that would love to upgrade to better brakes . . .

TIA,
:-) neil