autocrosser

I just bought 17x9" (+43) wheels for my 3rd gen.

I am considering the following:

Toyo Proxes RA1 255/40
Kumho Victoracer V700 255/40
Kumho Exta V700 235/40


Here are my observations:

Toyo: Most expensive, most tread (8/32's), Longest life
Victoracer: Heavy, inexpensive, 255 is offered.
Exta V: Lighter, inexpensive, 255 NOT offered

I want to run the same size all around to keep the car balanced and be able to rotate. If I get the Victoracers, I can't flip/flop the tires. I also want to be able to drive the tires on the street occasionally (Hoosiers are out of the question!)

Any words of wisdom?

SleepR1

Hmmm, I'd go with a 255/40-17 Yokohama AVS Intermediate. $104 each at the Tire Rack, and they stick very well fresh from their molds. I'd have Tire Rack shave them to 4/32nds tread depth for motorsports driving.

Since the AVS Intermediates are road tires, you don't have to worry about running over road hazards, and having a blow out. The AVS Intermediates are not R-compound tires, but I guarantee that the AVS I's will perform on par with the V700s or Toyo RA-1s (or Advan A032Rs even).

Since Hoosiers are out of the question for you, there's no reason for you to waste money on subpar R-compound tires that you mentioned in your post (Toyo RA-1, Kumho V700, Kumho Ecsta 700).

Hoosiers are the only DOT race tires worth spending money on. The others (Kumho V700, Toyo RA-1, Yoko A032R) are just fast-wearing tires that don't stick any better than a good UHP road tire that's freshly minted and shaved...

If you have the budget you can try Pirelli P-Zero Corsas, or Michelin Pilot Sport Cups... both come in 255/40-17.

Node

iTrader: (1)

so you're basically saying AVS Intermediate be a great street tire for the price, and can be made into a great track tire also?

autocrosser

My wife had AVS Intermediates on her TT Supra and they got hard way before the tread was gone. I have driven on many street tires (RE730, Pilot, AVS etc and nothing comes close to the Kumho or Hoosier on the autocross track. The Hoosier is definitely faster out of the box but after 40 runs (maybe 3 heat cycles they are toast). The Kumho's are good for 80+ runs and they are only marginally slower than the Hoosiers.

I wish the Falken Azenis came in 255/40-17's!

SleepR1

This is why I suggested shaving the AVS I's BEFORE competing on them. With shallower tread depth, the AVS I will not overheat from hard motorsports use.

EVERY tire will harden after successive heat cycles. Hoosier R3S03s are good for no more than 4 heat cycles before performance degrades to new AVS I road tire levels.. After the 5th heat cycle the Hoosiers cord out.

FWIW, autocrossing has always been about driving skill, and less dependent on equipment.

SleepR1

Node,

YES. I'm currently using the AVS I's as track tires (and doubling as road tires, as my FD Rx7 is a daily drive). I only bust out the Hoosiers when the "big guns" come out to play on track

Silkworm

If you're going to use a track tire, then use a track tire, IMHO. I don't think the AVS, even shaved, is going to have comparible lap times to the V700s. True, the Hoosiers are better tires, but they're absolutely not a track tire that can be driven to the track. I can do that with any of his options, no problem.

The Toyos last forever, but they're a bit slower than the V700s. I don't think, weight wise, they're any better than the Kumho V700s. Additionally, for track use, they're supposed to be shaved down to 4/32nds.

The newer Escta V700s are supposed lighter than the older model.

Have fun.

PaulC

autocrosser

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SleepR1

Silkworm...

If you're not ready to use a dedicated set of track wheels/shod with Hoosier R3S03s for the track-only, then why bother with track tires?

Anytime you drive on the road with your track tires, you're subjecting the R-compounds to unnecessary heat cycling. Heat cycling kills the performance of track tires, to the point that they're not much better than a UHP (ultra high performance) road tire.

Yes I have in MY VERY RECENT EXPERIENCE outrun (or run down) other sports cars on track shod with V700s, Toyo RA-1s, Yokohama A032Rs, while I had my AVS I's in 255/40-17s.

The simple truth is if you're not running Hoosier slicks, don't bother with the other R-compound brands...they're much slower track tires PERIOD... Go to a Porsche Club Race and see what the club racers are running...yup Hoosier R3S03s brand new straight off of the Hoosier trailer...

SCCA has the crappy Toyo RA-1 spec tire, but ask any of the SCCA club racers, and they'll tell you that Hoosiers are THE BEST...

The only racers that run Kumho V700s are those racers that are sponsored by Kumho...Kumho USA's Rudy Consalacion (spelling?) gave me a set of V700s to try...they were the first and last set of V700s I've had.

autocrosser

I agree that "Stickered" Hoosiers are faster than Kumho's but on a typical 60 second autocross course, they might be .3 seconds faster. That means the Kumho is 99.5% as good as the Hoosier. After 40 runs the Kumho will be as fast or faster. I seriously doubt that the AVS would be any less than 1-2 seconds slower than the Kumho. I have done many autocrosses on Hoosiers, Kumho's and a few on Street tires and the Street tires are not even close! PERIOD!!!

autocrosser

Sleep1, Just because you beat other cars on RACE tires with your STREET tires does not mean that the street tires are superior. It means that YOU are a superior driver! The only way to truly test the differences would be to do back-to-back runs on the same "Stickered" tires on the same wheels on the same track with the same track conditions.

SleepR1

Ok...we come from two different worlds. I run on a high speed road racing circuits, you run on low speed cone circuits. Whatever works for us is what we'll go with. For me, R compound tires don't help me much for autocrossing cuz I suck at autocrossing. I do better with Hoosiers on the high speed stuff though...Hoosier R3S03s are 5 seconds faster than the AVS I's, but I can easily run with guys on Toyo RA-1s/Kumho V700s with my AVS I's on...I'm sure they'll be the first to mention that it's my car, NOT ME, that's responsible for the speeds

gnx7

iTrader: (10)

Since noone has posted anything about the Bridgestone Potenza S-03's I will.

245/45/16 size for comparison sake:

S-03's vs. Kumho V700's
Nearly identical handling/dry traction rating and only a $10 difference.

S-03 strongpoints:
full tread depth tire
quieter ride
better wet traction
better ride comfort
longer wear
tire warranty
longer wear than AVS-I's
better traction than Yoko ADVAN's!

V700 strongpoints:
slightly better handling/traction (marginally better)

I went to a Porsche club AutoX with my neighbor in a '94 C2 cabrio shod with S-03's at all corners and factory suspension with no upgrades. He is a good driver but was still able to beat most of the guys with Kumho V700's and modified suspension. The S-03's are predictable, handle well, have a long life (for a performance tire), and IMO as good as the V700's. Drive to the track/AutoX with your everyday street tire and rip off some great times.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Compar...5ZR6V700432_=4

I just bought a set of S-03's for my FC! Very happy with them.... added coilovers at the same time.

-GNX7

alwan16

i just want to say that there is no way any street tire (so3 included) could possibly be stickier under optimal race conditions than any "race" autocross tire in an autocross environment discounting any crappy surfaces, poor weather conditions, etc.

the race tire just stick stick and stick when you take them to the edge when they are warm. race tires are a huge advantage in autocrossing.......otherwise everyone would be using street tires. i would say worth at least 2-3 seconds on a 60s course depending on the driver.

autocrosser

GNX7.... The difference in price in the 255/40-17 is $51. The S03 had an extremely high rating for dry traction and is probably a great street tire tha would do fairly well in an autocross but I still think that the Kumho would be faster (1-2 seconds).

Im not sure what the price of the Toyo's are? I believe the main reason that most autocrossers use Kumho's or Hoosiers is because they pay contingency money. Since I won't be using the RX7 for "National SCCA" events, I don't care about contingencies.

I will still use my stock wheels with Bridgestone RE730's on the street but when I autocross I want to mount the 17's at home and drive to the event (even if its 250 miles away!).

No one has given me a response on my original question which is.... What is the best tire between the 3 that I listed. I have heard bad reviews about the Yokohama AO32R so I didn't include it (I don't care about wet traction on race tires cause I won't autocross the RX7 in the rain).

gnx7

iTrader: (10)

If you are dedicating a set of rims to AutoX than you should get race only tires like you said. But if you rely on only one set than I believe the S-03's are the ticket.

In the 245/45/16 size the S-03's are $10 more than shaved Kumho V700's and have a warranty. True that they aren't as good as full race tires.... but not far behind.

In the 17" size you mentioned there is a $46 difference. Guess it pays to buy a common size.

Why not put 245/45/16's on stock rims and then use your 17's for daily driver status?

Good luck... I think you are ready to plunk down some coin and buy some tires.

-GNX7

Coulthard Fan

Last month I got Toyo RA1s in 255/40/17 at $184 each from Radial Tire in MD. (including shipping & tax)

Um, SleepR1 is going to kill us because we really are compromising here... but, I chose the RA1 because I thought it was the very best (ultimate traction & drivable in the wet) street tire in my sizes (235 up front)that can also be autocrossed and taken to the track. This is my only set of tires since I wrecked my last set of rims and now live in a high rise with no storage for tires anyway.

I got the RA1s to replace the Advan A032Rs I had on before, which I just thought were too loud and have less tread at 6/32. Sure, they should be shaved to maximize their potential but if you do that you may as well just get the Hoosiers.

In the end, SleepR1 is correct that Hoosiers are the only choice for maximum autocross/track performance and you may as well run street tires if you don't have them. But, even my old heat cycled A032Rs were a hell of a lot stickier than my Bridgestone RE71s. I mean no-comparison stickier - to me it was worth it for the extra confidence.

Scott

Coulthard Fan

yep.

autocrosser

originally posted by GNX7

If you are dedicating a set of rims to AutoX than you should get race only tires like you said. But if you rely on only one set than I believe the S-03's are the ticket.

Ok, I looked at he surveys and reviews of the S-03 and BFG KD (Max Performance tires). I have never driven on those but I would assume that they would be much closer to an "R" rated tire than anything else. They would probably be more consistent over time and be able to take more heat cycles. I could also get many more events out of them before their performance falls off.

So maybe the best "compromise" tire is a "Max Performance" tire. I have driven the AVS's and I was not impressed with them at all so even though they are dirt cheap they wouldn't work.

user 84205

ADVAN Neova's..................

Silkworm

First of all, I'm curious, what racing experience do you have? Are you actively racing right now? I'd be really surprised if you took a set of AVS shaved over a set of V700s. REALLY surprised. Hoosierdaddies over V700s, sure, no question.

I guess you think I'm arguing that the Hoosier isn't a faster tire. It is. No argument about it. Aside from true racing slicks, they're quite probably the stickiest tire you can buy. And after 3 heat cycles or so, they're junk

Some of us aren't made of money. Some of us can't afford trailers to get us to the track. Some of us can't afford a new $700 set of tires every weekend.

Sure, the POC guys run with Hoosiers for the most part. THEY'RE ALSO DRIVING PORSCHES. It's a little more expensive than my 7000$ club racer to run a 993 club racer. Just a little bit.

Actually, NASA has the Toyos as their spec tire. Which is nice. I spend 1200 bucks for the season, two sets of tires will last me the entire season, including test days, practice, qualifying and races. To do the same on Hoosiers would cost me over 3500 (if I manage 2 weekends on a set).

Racing's for everyone, not just people with lots and lots of money. I might only be a back marker, but at least with NASA's spec tire class, i don't have to spend tons of cash to make up for lack of technique.

Hey, if you want to look down on the low budget racers, go ahead. It's called being a snob. You'll be treated accordingly, I'm sure.

Autocrosser,

I thought I gave you the info you wanted, I didn't see an actual question. If you want my opinion on which tire to use, to get back and forth to the auto-x track, and decent speed, the Kumho Escta V700 is your best bet. IMHO.

Regards,

PaulC

redrotorR1

I run some auto-x events on the old V700's and I love going to these events. (I normally run in a street tire class .... as otherwise discussed, I cannot afford Hoosiers and in tire class I can compete with cars other than Z06's.) The V700's are great tires ... they stick and then they stick. I can wash out sweepers and still hammer it deep without threat of cone and/or grass. I usually am able to kick out the rear end with the street tires on (BFG KDW's ... which surprisingly I've spun out on two events in a row); with the Victoracers, the car just pulls.

I saw another FD drifting around a skidpad at the last event, albeit on some Hoosiers. Race tires make a difference. I am typically 2-3 seconds faster on race tires ... at the very least 1 second; which as you all know, on an auto-x course is a lot. But, I dunno about driving on the race tires to the event ... that's a little bit more than just tire warming.

I read the sales excerpt about the new V700's. I haven't been sold on them. 2 of our club members have them and both have mixed results. My 2 cents, I know what works ... the original V700's.