HIRISK

Hi Guys,

I had my 1988 FC3S at the local tire shop yesterday and had the suspension geometry checked out and adjusted.

Now, I would like to run the setting past you all and get some advice as I am going back there this week to fine tune the settings and get it right as it is pulling a little to the right.

I will show all the values below as "before / after" values and ask my questions in red after each item.

Thanks in advance for anyones help or input.

FRONT END

TOE (LEFT / RIGHT)
FACTORY: +0.9mm / +0.9mm
BEFORE: -3.4mm / -1.0mm
AFTER : +1.2mm / +1.2mm

- Do these toe settings seem OK??

CAMBER (LEFT / RIGHT)
FACTORY: +00.20 / +00.20
BEFORE: -00.40 / -01.55
AFTER: - 01.20 / -00.45

- They told me the different setting LHS to RHS is to compensate for the caster??
- The car is now pulling to the RHS though??

CASTER (LEFT / RIGHT)
FACTORY: +04.40 / +04.40
BEFORE: +05.00 / +06.05
AFTER: +04.40 / +06.30

- What would cause the caster to be out on the RH side??
- Why did the LH side value change before to after if the caster is not adjustable??
(could the reading they have provided be wrong as I watched them do it all and NOTHING was adjusted on the front except camber and toe)

---------------------------------------------------------

REAR END

TOE (LEFT / RIGHT)
FACTORY: +0.0mm / +0.0mm
BEFORE: -3.2mm / +2.5mm
AFTER : +2.7mm / +2.5mm

CAMBER (LEFT / RIGHT)
FACTORY: -00.45 / +00.45
BEFORE: -01.10 / -02.35
AFTER: - 01.25 / -02.20

- NOTHING was adjusted in the rear AT ALL so how could the before and after values have changed!!??

---------------------------------------------------------

Josh18_2k

iTrader: (3)

somethings probably bent on the right front... my car has 4.5 caster both side. never seen one over 5 without modification

the rear camber changes a lot with small suspension movements, so the change is probably just from the car jiggling/shifting/whatever on the rack. its pretty hard to set rear camber, and not have it move .1 degrees on its own.

HIRISK

Thanks for the feedback.

Sucks if something is bent as finding it will be a nightmare.

Black91n/a

Basically, unless you've got aftermarket parts in the suspension (camber plates in front, camber adjuster(s) in the rear), pretty much all one can do is adjust the toe. The strut tops in front can be rotated for a slight camber and caster change, but it's small.

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

Something could be bent up front or it could be bad lower control arm bushings or strut top hat. Do you have and suspension alignment mods or is it all stock?

I have 4.5 caster on both sides as well. Caster is non adjustable from the factory, as is camber (aside from the strut top hat configuration in front).

Your rear settings changed because they did a 4 wheel alignment, aligning the front to the back using the chassis centerline as reference.

Black91n/a

Also keep in mind that the driver's side probably sits a bit lower than the passenger, so that contributes to a bit of side to side difference.

HIRISK

Thanks again for all the replies, much appreciated.

My current set up is...

- JIC Coil Overs
- JIC Pillow Ball Camber Adjustable Tops
- Rear Camber Bar
- Stock bushes (probably worn) front and rear

I am going to order a set of the High Energy Bushes to replace all the stock items and may look at replacing the sub frame bushes in the rear too.

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

So you can adjust front camber and toe but not front caster with that setup.

You can adjust rear toe and partially adjust rear camber.

Definately check the front of your car out to see if anything is bent broken or worn out. New bushings throughout is a very good idea. Also, consider upgrading to individual rear adjusters if you want the rear alignment perfect.

Then have them align your car properly... they should be able to even things out in front at minimum. They wont be able to even out the rear camber, but should get the rear toe close.

HotRodMex

iTrader: (3)

The rear camber would've changed because the left rear toe was so far out. going from that far out to that far in would've meant they had to move the eccentric bolt quite a bit. In doing so, the trailing arm was rotated, and that would've affected its relation to the lateral toe link (the little bar that runs from the wheel area to about the diff area). This links purpose is camber compensation on the rear suspension (see: Mazda RX7 training manual: rear suspension)

So changing the wheels position and angle (adjusting the toe) by moving the large trailing arm (moving the eccentric bolt to adjust the toe), you change the angle between the lateral link and the trailing arm, affecting the camber.

HIRISK

Thanks again everyone for all the advice.

I have now pretty much decided on the following...

- Full Energy Suspension Bushing Kit
- MMR Individual Rear Camber Links
- MMR DTSS Eliminators
- AWR Rear Adjustable Lateral (toe) Links

Once I have all these items installed with what I already have (JIC Front Camber Tops and Rear Adjustable Sub Frame Link) I should be able to get the suspension dialled in really well.

The only thing is the front Caster variation which I am hoping will be fixed by the new bushing kit.

If not I will loosen the front K Frame and see if i can get enough fore/aft movement to dial it back in.

Anyway, will keep you all updated.

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

The toe links are not needed.

You will need the MMR spherical rear control arm bearings. You cant use the Energy poly ones. It will bind the rear suspension.

Josh18_2k

iTrader: (3)

donbt even bother with a bushing kit. the only ones you need are front control arm bushings, and they can be ought seperately for less.

and yes either stick with stock rear control arm bushings, or sphericals.

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

I agree with that. The front poly arm bushings alone are about $45. If you want delrin MMR has them for $85.

HIRISK

I hear what you guys are saying, but I can get the FULL Energy Susp Kit for $155USD shipped to my door.

If I was to buy the parts that I need individually it will probably come close to that anyway??

The kit comes with...

Front Control Arm Bushings
Rear Control Arm Bushings
Front Sway Bar Bushings
Rear Sway Bar Bushings
Ball Joint End Boots
Tie Rod End Boots

I think it would be hard for me to buy all of that (less Rear Control Arm Bushing) individually for less money??

Would there be any advantage using Delrin Front Control Arm Busahings over Polyurethane??

Josh18_2k

iTrader: (3)

a) are you using stock sway bars? i'm pretty sure the energy kit's sway bar bushings are for TII bars only (dont quote me on that).

b) why would you pay money for tie rod boots? a new set of inner/outer tie rods are 40 bucks on ebay, which you should do anyway.

delrin is stiffer than poly, so it makes for a better bushing. either one is just fine for street tires. if you were racing on slicks, it would behoove you to buy needle bearings for the conmtrol arms (expensive). just get whichever is cheaper.

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

Well first, search ebay. You can get the full bushing kit for $120 shipped. Check out all your dust boots and see if they are destroyed or not. If your dust boots are ok and/or if you going to replace your sway bars, don't bother with the full set as you will be throwing away the sway bar bushings, and changing the dust boots for no reason.

The Delrin front arm bushings will give you a more solid feel and mor consistent feed back than poly. Delrin will articulate smoother than poly as well. It will transmit some additional NVH into the car during everyday driving. I didnt think it was that bad going to delrin personally, but either option is a good upgrade. If it is a track car, I would strongly consider delrin.

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

Josh,

I think that even with race tires the delrin front arm bushings will be just fine. Mine articulate with very little friction. I wouldnt not consider going to the needle bearing front arms now unless I was competitive at a national level looking for the most minute level of improvement.

Josh18_2k

iTrader: (3)

articulation sucks ***** on my energy FCA bushings... maybe the inner sleeve thing isnt long enough? whered you get the delrin ones, MMR?

twilight slide

Just a FYI, MMR DTSS eliminators dont have a notch at the top of the sleeve to fit between the control arm "shoulders". Go AWR, mazdatrix or racing beat if you want them to fit correctly.

MaczPayne

iTrader: (5)

Yeah

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

That is kind of par for the course with poly. Have you tried running the bolt slightly looser? If that works try replacing the OEM nut with a locknut and not running it quite as tight as factory.

Yea my delrin FCA bushings are from MMR. I can move my arms with one hand using minimal effort. They nearly fall under their own weight with no ball joint or spindle attached to them. If I keep them greased, they will probably last forever.

If I ever replace them I will probably have them machined to make them greasable via zerk fittings.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

What options are there to upgrade the subframe bushings if you want to use the center bar rear adjuster?

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

I used MMR and they fit fine and have been fine FWIW.

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

Nothing. Maybe you can use the Mazdacomp ones, but you definately have to keep it flexible in order to use the center bar.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

I just remembered, you don't really need the center adjuster if you have spherical bearings anyway.

Next Question then:

What is the probability of binding if you have both delrin rear control arm bushings and subframe bushings and you're using both the individual adjusters and the centre adjuster?

It's very annoying that SCCA STS prohibits spherical bearings.