When do you need to upgrade plugs from 9s to race plugs?
11-07-01, 10:53 PM
#26
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Re: how much gap?
Originally posted by rotaryextreme
How much do you gap the plugs? Rice Racing says 0.9mm or 0.02" but 0.9mm does not equal to 0.02" (0.5 mm). Which one is it? How about just take an average of it and make it 0.7mm?
Chuck
How much do you gap the plugs? Rice Racing says 0.9mm or 0.02" but 0.9mm does not equal to 0.02" (0.5 mm). Which one is it? How about just take an average of it and make it 0.7mm?
Chuck
11-10-01, 11:36 PM
#28
WWFSMD
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My car seems to run fine with B10EGV plugs, but it is driving the J&S crazy so I think I'm going to switch back to 9s or get some NGK racing surface gap 10.5s. I don't think it is actually detonating because the PowerFC reports no abnormal activity from the stock knock sensor.
However, I went to the (road race) track this weekend and decided to just drive the car an ignore the J&S, even though it was retarding the ignition up to 10 degrees sometimes. I don't think this was a good idea because the wastegate seems to be stuck now, which I theorize to be the result of high exhaust temps from the ignition retard. I'll have to investigate further to see if that is really the problem or not. I hope it didn't hurt anything else.
So, a word of warning: the J&S and non-resistor plugs might be a bad combination. However, if you aren't running a J&S the plugs would seem to work fine as the car runs well.
-Max
However, I went to the (road race) track this weekend and decided to just drive the car an ignore the J&S, even though it was retarding the ignition up to 10 degrees sometimes. I don't think this was a good idea because the wastegate seems to be stuck now, which I theorize to be the result of high exhaust temps from the ignition retard. I'll have to investigate further to see if that is really the problem or not. I hope it didn't hurt anything else.
So, a word of warning: the J&S and non-resistor plugs might be a bad combination. However, if you aren't running a J&S the plugs would seem to work fine as the car runs well.
-Max
11-10-01, 11:39 PM
#29
WWFSMD
Thread Starter
I missed it before, but I just read RICE RACING's response about the J&S. I guess I'll regap them and try again to see if that works. I do have an HKS TwinPower ignition amp already so I am not sure if the gap is the problem or not. We'll see I guess... I'll report back when I try the smaller gaps.
-Max
-Max
11-12-01, 12:59 AM
#30
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Max,
Do me a quick favor...double check to see your turbo is mounted nice and tight to the manifold..when i use to have that turbo, i had my apexi turbo get loose right there, causing some high pitch exhaust noises to set off the J&S
Do me a quick favor...double check to see your turbo is mounted nice and tight to the manifold..when i use to have that turbo, i had my apexi turbo get loose right there, causing some high pitch exhaust noises to set off the J&S
Originally posted by maxcooper
My car seems to run fine with B10EGV plugs, but it is driving the J&S crazy so I think I'm going to switch back to 9s or get some NGK racing surface gap 10.5s. I don't think it is actually detonating because the PowerFC reports no abnormal activity from the stock knock sensor.
-Max
My car seems to run fine with B10EGV plugs, but it is driving the J&S crazy so I think I'm going to switch back to 9s or get some NGK racing surface gap 10.5s. I don't think it is actually detonating because the PowerFC reports no abnormal activity from the stock knock sensor.
-Max
11-12-01, 01:12 AM
#31
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wouldnt a shorter plug hurt performance?
Originally posted by RICE RACING
The best mod you can make is to scrap the style of plug you are using ! regardless of heat range they are **** !
I recommend using single electrode B10EG or B10EGV or RA series (race plugs) as a minimum in a high HP aplication like yours for both L & T plugs, all are NGK's.
Only go for the 11.5 if you are endurance racing, they will misfire even with a good ignition system when the engine is "cold" and are pretty easy to "wet" is you fuel metering is out.
10's are a good compromise for thermal resistance and give less cold misfires than 11.5's.
Just my tips.
The best mod you can make is to scrap the style of plug you are using ! regardless of heat range they are **** !
I recommend using single electrode B10EG or B10EGV or RA series (race plugs) as a minimum in a high HP aplication like yours for both L & T plugs, all are NGK's.
Only go for the 11.5 if you are endurance racing, they will misfire even with a good ignition system when the engine is "cold" and are pretty easy to "wet" is you fuel metering is out.
10's are a good compromise for thermal resistance and give less cold misfires than 11.5's.
Just my tips.
11-12-01, 01:37 AM
#32
WWFSMD
Thread Starter
It was difficult to get the turbine housing installed on the manifold, but I am pretty sure it is tight right now. I ended up installing just the turbine housing alone to get clearance for wrenching on the fasteners, and then put the turbo back together on the manifold. The J&S lights just showed up after the plug install, so I am pretty sure it was related to the plugs. I haven't tried regapping them yet, but that is my current plan of action.
A shorter plug will hurt performance according to Racing Beat (that's what is says in their catalog). But I don't think it is a big difference, and the plugs are a lot less expensive than the surface-gap racing plugs. Perhaps I will try both at my next dyno tuning session (months away).
-Max
A shorter plug will hurt performance according to Racing Beat (that's what is says in their catalog). But I don't think it is a big difference, and the plugs are a lot less expensive than the surface-gap racing plugs. Perhaps I will try both at my next dyno tuning session (months away).
-Max
11-25-01, 07:04 PM
#33
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Finally got some B10EGV's into my car. The old ones were fouled beyond belief.
It seems a lot smoother now (don't know if that's due to the old ones being bad, or the new ones being good). I was able to turn my boost up quite a bit before the J&S started flickering (I've had a solid map for awhile, just bad plugs keeping me from using it properly).
Max, any results on regapping to see if you got less flicker?
Mine are gapped to 0.02", but I confused about the retard lights I'm getting. I should be good for more boost than this. I need to get on a dyno, or get a couple gallons of race gas and see what's up...
It seems a lot smoother now (don't know if that's due to the old ones being bad, or the new ones being good). I was able to turn my boost up quite a bit before the J&S started flickering (I've had a solid map for awhile, just bad plugs keeping me from using it properly).
Max, any results on regapping to see if you got less flicker?
Mine are gapped to 0.02", but I confused about the retard lights I'm getting. I should be good for more boost than this. I need to get on a dyno, or get a couple gallons of race gas and see what's up...
11-25-01, 07:55 PM
#34
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Originally posted by Goblin
Finally got some B10EGV's into my car. The old ones were fouled beyond belief.
It seems a lot smoother now (don't know if that's due to the old ones being bad, or the new ones being good). I was able to turn my boost up quite a bit before the J&S started flickering (I've had a solid map for awhile, just bad plugs keeping me from using it properly).
Max, any results on regapping to see if you got less flicker?
Mine are gapped to 0.02", but I confused about the retard lights I'm getting. I should be good for more boost than this. I need to get on a dyno, or get a couple gallons of race gas and see what's up...
Finally got some B10EGV's into my car. The old ones were fouled beyond belief.
It seems a lot smoother now (don't know if that's due to the old ones being bad, or the new ones being good). I was able to turn my boost up quite a bit before the J&S started flickering (I've had a solid map for awhile, just bad plugs keeping me from using it properly).
Max, any results on regapping to see if you got less flicker?
Mine are gapped to 0.02", but I confused about the retard lights I'm getting. I should be good for more boost than this. I need to get on a dyno, or get a couple gallons of race gas and see what's up...
Thanx.
11-27-01, 05:59 PM
#35
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Before I tell you how much boost I was running, and you laugh because I'm so far outside the efficiency range of the turbo, remember, I've had tuning issues with the car ever since the T-78 went in, and I'm only just now getting a chance to address them...
I was running 0.7 kg/cm^2 before the plugs. In order to be safe, because I've not had a chance to get on the dyno to get a real A/F reading, and have been going on EGT temps, knock readings on the PFC, and O2 voltage. Any time I bumped up the boost any higher, I'd start to get a couple degrees retard (like, 0.75 would do it).
With the new plugs (like I said, the old ones were REALLY bad), I can run a solid 0.96 (at 0.98 I start to get retard... not much, but a flicker...).
That was in 60 degree F.
The J&S started squawking up around 5500-6000 rpm.
Timing I'd have a hard time telling you. I know what's in the map that I can touch, since I put it there, but I don't know what's in the base map under that (damned PFC...).
I'll get a couple more runs in when I get a chance this weekend and collect some more data (I was just happy to be inching closer to a reasonable boost level last weekend, and wasn't concerned too much with specifics).
I was running 0.7 kg/cm^2 before the plugs. In order to be safe, because I've not had a chance to get on the dyno to get a real A/F reading, and have been going on EGT temps, knock readings on the PFC, and O2 voltage. Any time I bumped up the boost any higher, I'd start to get a couple degrees retard (like, 0.75 would do it).
With the new plugs (like I said, the old ones were REALLY bad), I can run a solid 0.96 (at 0.98 I start to get retard... not much, but a flicker...).
That was in 60 degree F.
The J&S started squawking up around 5500-6000 rpm.
Timing I'd have a hard time telling you. I know what's in the map that I can touch, since I put it there, but I don't know what's in the base map under that (damned PFC...).
I'll get a couple more runs in when I get a chance this weekend and collect some more data (I was just happy to be inching closer to a reasonable boost level last weekend, and wasn't concerned too much with specifics).
11-27-01, 11:59 PM
#36
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Shoter plug length.
Originally posted by Poweraxel
wouldnt a shorter plug hurt performance?
wouldnt a shorter plug hurt performance?
If you car is running too rich you may want to PROPERLY tune your car before switching to these shorter plugs.
The spark extension into the combustion chamber has proven to increase power. However the lower compression may give more room for air/fuel. hmmm
" SPARK PLUG, NGK B9EGV 4 ALL RX 12A, 13B ALL $6.00
Notes: The NGK 'EGV' plug provides a number fo heat ranges. However, the reach of the EGV plug is shorter that the racing plugs or stock plugs. This means that it's flash point is not as close to the combustion chamber, resulting in a loss in power. It also leaves some threads in the spark plug hole exposed, where carbon can build up resulting in possible detonation. We recommend use of racing plugs or Stock 3rd-gen plugs"
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/weba...ategoryDisplay
11-28-01, 02:03 AM
#37
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Re: Shoter plug length.
Originally posted by waynespeed
I've seen these plug leaving cabon buildup withing the spark plug hole due to the shorter length. Mazda Motorsports also warn of detonation with these plugs because of carbon buildup.
If you car is running too rich you may want to PROPERLY tune your car before switching to these shorter plugs.
The spark extension into the combustion chamber has proven to increase power. However the lower compression may give more room for air/fuel. hmmm
" SPARK PLUG, NGK B9EGV 4 ALL RX 12A, 13B ALL $6.00
Notes: The NGK 'EGV' plug provides a number fo heat ranges. However, the reach of the EGV plug is shorter that the racing plugs or stock plugs. This means that it's flash point is not as close to the combustion chamber, resulting in a loss in power. It also leaves some threads in the spark plug hole exposed, where carbon can build up resulting in possible detonation. We recommend use of racing plugs or Stock 3rd-gen plugs"
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/weba...ategoryDisplay
I've seen these plug leaving cabon buildup withing the spark plug hole due to the shorter length. Mazda Motorsports also warn of detonation with these plugs because of carbon buildup.
If you car is running too rich you may want to PROPERLY tune your car before switching to these shorter plugs.
The spark extension into the combustion chamber has proven to increase power. However the lower compression may give more room for air/fuel. hmmm
" SPARK PLUG, NGK B9EGV 4 ALL RX 12A, 13B ALL $6.00
Notes: The NGK 'EGV' plug provides a number fo heat ranges. However, the reach of the EGV plug is shorter that the racing plugs or stock plugs. This means that it's flash point is not as close to the combustion chamber, resulting in a loss in power. It also leaves some threads in the spark plug hole exposed, where carbon can build up resulting in possible detonation. We recommend use of racing plugs or Stock 3rd-gen plugs"
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/weba...ategoryDisplay
I used to R4468A-105 plugs and noticed no increase in power as apposed to the same heat range in the EGV type shorter "inferior" plug ?
The race plugs still suffer from carbon build up cause they run so much cooler inside them near the insulator nose, far more than the EGV plugs, every EGV pluged engine I have striped and rebuilt had no more carbon build up near the plug holes than a normal stock or race pluged motor....so I am confused as to same of the comments. From what I have seen the amount of carbon build up is very similar and will not cause problems, have you ever seen how much carbon build up is on a rotor ?
It is primarily a heat range issue, it is easy to select the wrong heat range for a given application, I know of lots of people running EGV's and they have no problems at all except what to do with ALL the money they saved compared to bying the race plugs. I know I fall into this boat, so far as cost per performance and reliability I could not see the point in buying the RA series NGK's....in fact I foung the platinum tips did not last as long as the ones in the EGV's ! go figure that one out ?
Each to his own though, I like the EGV's and the EG's for leaded gas. They work for me, then run smooth due to precise gap control and if the right heat range is selected they stop detonation.
11-28-01, 05:12 PM
#38
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Originally posted by HWO
B#EGV plugs were reccomended to me by Matt, he seemed to swear by them, and after using them so do I, they even cough an engine into life when ya have poured some ATF down its throat.
My engine ran crisper and smoother with B8EGV leadings and B9EGV trailings than it ever did with BUR7EQ and BUR9EQ plugs in it.
Matt reccomended the B#EGV type of plug for any engine running premix.
B#EGV plugs were reccomended to me by Matt, he seemed to swear by them, and after using them so do I, they even cough an engine into life when ya have poured some ATF down its throat.
My engine ran crisper and smoother with B8EGV leadings and B9EGV trailings than it ever did with BUR7EQ and BUR9EQ plugs in it.
Matt reccomended the B#EGV type of plug for any engine running premix.
Both Matt and Justin from Haltech advised me to use the #EQs and they have worked fine with the S4/5 coil packs.
Originally posted by RICE RACING
A777, good to hear a responce from another member who has high HP car doing good times
Yeah my car is for sale, had it in the Sydney trading post this week.
PS: You're car is real nice !
A777, good to hear a responce from another member who has high HP car doing good times
Yeah my car is for sale, had it in the Sydney trading post this week.
PS: You're car is real nice !
lol
11-28-01, 05:57 PM
#39
Rotary Enthusiast
Originally posted by AJC13B
Buh! And an 11.1 and same HP as Angus isn't enough from my 9EQs??
lol
Buh! And an 11.1 and same HP as Angus isn't enough from my 9EQs??
lol
on my B10EGV's
12-05-01, 03:55 AM
#40
Yellow Dragon is no more
Is anyone going to answer the question of when rapid fouling begins with these type of plugs? For example at what AF this occurs?
Rice: Do you have any rules for how to select the plug's heat range for each application? HP level, boost level, track usage? I can pull some info from this thread, but a good summary would be nice.
Rice: Do you have any rules for how to select the plug's heat range for each application? HP level, boost level, track usage? I can pull some info from this thread, but a good summary would be nice.
12-07-01, 05:19 AM
#41
WWFSMD
Thread Starter
Sorry to have mislead everyone, but I swtiched back to 9s at the track this weekend (faster than re-gapping) and I was still getting some strange J&S activity. I now suspect the HKS TwinPower might be causing the falsing, but I'll have to do some more research to be sure.
The B10EGVs were carboned up a bit, but not too bad considering I have been using them on the street for a while. I do think they were misfiring a bit, but the gap would probably fix that.
-Max
The B10EGVs were carboned up a bit, but not too bad considering I have been using them on the street for a while. I do think they were misfiring a bit, but the gap would probably fix that.
-Max
12-07-01, 11:51 AM
#42
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Seems like ya Aussies really get in to a heated argument about what plugs to use....but i do have a question for you guys.
I know that you guys debate back and forth about the best plugs for racing but what about daily driving. I have a T04s, FMIC, HKS Twin Power and drive my car on the street every day...should i stick with the BUR7 and 9 (i dont use the platinums) or you guys think it is worth it to switch...also any feed back on the HKS Iridiums where you guys are?
I know that you guys debate back and forth about the best plugs for racing but what about daily driving. I have a T04s, FMIC, HKS Twin Power and drive my car on the street every day...should i stick with the BUR7 and 9 (i dont use the platinums) or you guys think it is worth it to switch...also any feed back on the HKS Iridiums where you guys are?
12-07-01, 01:14 PM
#43
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Originally posted by AJC13B
What engine/ignition do you have again?
Both Matt and Justin from Haltech advised me to use the #EQs and they have worked fine with the S4/5 coil packs.
What engine/ignition do you have again?
Both Matt and Justin from Haltech advised me to use the #EQs and they have worked fine with the S4/5 coil packs.
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