modrx7

iTrader: (1)

I was thinking of building a custom v-mount setup. I had heard that v-mounts were better than, front mounts. I was wondering if this is worth it or not? Or should I just go buy one?

Also does anybody know the angle at which I should place the radiator for the most cooling or does it not really matter, and I should just make it fit?

I am running A-Specs 40R kit(on a side note, the kit fit in with no issues, bolted right up. I would consider this a bolt on upgrade, it cleared the frame rail with ease, there is no need to indent it.)

Any help would be great!!!

-Edan

Jon Goodwin

What car do you have? To buy a ready made kit is firstly, hard to come by and secondly damn expensive. Your best bet would be to design and make a setup yourself. Mine is very effective, and will sometimes be below ambient underboost.

John
88 GT-R

Broken09

iTrader: (1)

I have Chuck's kit. (Rotary Extreme) I've been very happy with it. The only thing I have done to it was rework the ducting. It's definately worth looking into. It's expensive, but nice.
-Nic

rdavidsrx7

I just made my own, even reused the stock radiator like the HKS kit does. Just got to finish welding a bracket onto my intercooler, which was a large stock mount like the asp, m2, pettit, etc. Oh yeah and install the damn turbo (35r).
Cost was next to nothing.
radiator reused, stock radiator hoses cut-reangled and reused, bought one 1foot lenght of radiator hose, brackets are reinforced sheet metal that I had laying around, reworked the black support beam for the intercooler to support v-mounted IC, bought some aluminum IC pipes and some silicone couplers, all in all it will cost about 200 bucks. Nice cheap bastard mod.

Bob

RETed

I'd like to see proof of this?


-Ted

bigmack000

what proof do you need logicaly its a better way and so far eveyone who has one says its better then a fmic
joel

RETed

There's a question of airflow rate through the whole system.
When you stuff an intercooler in the front, it's pretty much standard, as you get perpendicular (to core plane) airflow through the core.
You basically got infinite angles in terms of mounting, and this all changes the efficiency of the airflow through the intercooler core.
On top of that, the position of the vent on the hood can make a big difference, as is the obvious size of the vent itself.
You can't assume efficient airflow through the intercooler core just because you put it under the hole in the middle of the hood.

Do you have a v-mount?
Do you have a way to datalog air temp?
If you do, maybe you can offer some data?


-Ted

Broken09

iTrader: (1)

Do we really have to start another one of these v-mount versus other IC threads? I'm sorry Ted I know it's not always you and I'm not trying to single you out it just seems anytime a V-mount is mentioned it turns the thread into a huge debate. Unfortunately no I don't have any datalogs of my air temps, I could get one, but at the same time I'm not going to go back and rip out my setup so I can install a fmic and stock mount radiator so that I can compare since that would be the only way to truly get a comparison. Do I feel by some logic with proper ducting the v-mount would be better? Yes. Do you have to agree? No. Can we leave it at that?
Let the threadstarter make his own decision as to what he feels is better and what he wants to spend his money on. I know he was kind of asking for everyone's opinion, but he's also already formed half of an opinion.
-Nic

modrx7

iTrader: (1)

The Rotary Extreme kit looks nice, but it also runs nearly 3 thousand... I have a core, but I am not aware of its efficiency rating?? But then again, do I really want to go through the hassle of making a custom v-mount?

Thanks for your guys thoughts, just got make up my mind.

RETed

One of the biggest things I'm against this design is you're taking precious airflow that normally would flow over the engine.

There is a prevalent theory that says the rear rotor blows due to not sufficient cooling, since it "sits" behind the the front (rotor) section.
If this is true, then a v-mount is BAD.

My theory on the v-mounts is just for show cars to show off the IC better in the engine bay...

Think about it - no real race car does it without extensive ducting.
Almost all real turbo'd race cars run a front mount.
I've only seen these v-mounts used in drifting...

Do we want to get into a debate about drifting being legitimate?


-Ted

Broken09

iTrader: (1)

Nope no debate on drifting from me. But as you said with proper ducting this setup can work. I realize you're in favor of front mount, but there is still a part of me that even at speed sees a front mount as a restriction of air flow to the radiator and then in turn also a restriction to the rear rotor as you say. Maybe I'm wrong but again it's a situation that we haven't seen a test of some sort to prove either one of us wrong. Ok I'm done.


Modrx7: Your best bet is to look at some of the previous threads like the one about which intercooler setup would you rather have. It's basically a very long debate about the three different styles of IC's. There's some good info there, and it'll help you decide what you want to do.
-Nic

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

I guess it depends on where you are. Vmount is fairly new in the US but the idea isn't new. Knight Sports made their vmount kit back in 1998.

I think water cooling is much more important than air cooling to the rear rotor. I really don't think the rear rotor blows more often due to insufficient air cooling. And who says vmount will cause insufficient air cooling to the rear rotor? On the contrary, with a front mount, the water temp will be higher than with a vmount.

Vmount is not just for show. More than 50% of rx7 race cars in Japan use vmount. Go to the following link and see the photos.

http://www.rotaryextreme.com/japanic

Vmount is not just for drift car. If you wonder why drift cars use vmount, since the car goes side ways most of the time, the radiator and IC do not get as much air as regular track racing. If they use a front mount, the water temp will raise too high. They use vmounts to control air temp and water temp more effectively.

I don't make vmount for FC so I am not trying to sell you one. If you use one, you can see it for yourself.

Chuck Huang

RETed

I'm sorry Chuck, I'm not convinced.
I've went through those pics, and majority are "shop" cars.
When I mention real race cars, I'm talking about JGTC.
I see no JGTC race cars in those pics.
I'd like to see top-tier pro-racing cars in Japan run V-mounts - I haven't seen one yet.
In fact, you have several D1 drift cars.
Very few have roll cages in them, and the ones that do look like drag vehicles.
Sorry, the resolution is kinda small, so I can't read the text.

I've seen most of the cars in those pics, and majority of them are show-off cars for shops.
The KSP Engineering FC3S is infamous.
It puts down 950ps, and it's set-up for drag.
They do take it out for top speeds runs or 0-300km/h runs, but I do not call it a race car.

All those pics just reaffirms the V-mount is more for show.
You lose precious airflow over the engine and the transmission - I find this more important.
Putting all the stress on the coolant system for the rear rotor is just unnecessary.
If you can't solve the "overheating problem" with a front-mount, you shouldn't be messing with them in the first place.
We've managed to to do it with oversized radiators, dual oil coolers, modified front bumpers, and extensive ducting.


-Ted

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

I am not even going to get involved with this same lame old topic, they both have merits and they both work it is all in how it "the system" is setup as a whole. V-mount being more for show is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard you say. How much airflow do you think gets to that rear rotor with stock IC/rad and intake box in place while being hugged by the stock DP.

RETed

Care to quantify that statement?
I've seen Trans-Am Mustangs that had turbo's in the early 90's with extensive ducting with sorta v-mount.
Sure, those things worked.

Most of the v-mounts I've seen in FC's and FD's don't even compare to that.

I'd like to see datalogs of such set-ups.
If it's comparable, the datalogs would show this.

Stop telling me I'm making dumb remarks unless you can prove it.


-Ted

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

I scan those photos from the Japanese RX7 Magazine. Those shop cars are used for competition. Some are drift cars and some are track cars. If you want to see Vmount on a JGTC RX7, it's not going to happen as you know the RE Amemiya JGTC car is NA 3 rotor. I don't know any JGTC cars using front mount intercooler on the Skyline, Supra, NSX, etc. Can you show me some photos?

If you want to compare two setups, you have to make all the other factors fixed. Given the same size of IC and radiator, vmount setup will give you lower water temp simply because the air going through the radiator is not heated up by the FMIC.

Most of my customers use vmount with stock bumper, stock oil cooler, and stock hood and both the water temp and air temp are very low. As far as vmount making engine overheating, it's something I have never heard of or expereinced. I haven never have any customers with vmount complaining about overheating. I mean they got the vmount because they don't want their cars to overheat.

As far as for air cooling, the air coming out of the IC on the vmount will still go through the tranny tunnel. There is no way for air to exit except through the tranny tunnel. If you have a vented hood, some air is going to go through the vent no matter what kind of IC you have. People think a vented hood is necessary for vmount and the concept is totally wrong. A proper designed vmount works fine without a vented hood.

Your following comment really confuses me: "If you can't solve the "overheating problem" with a front-mount, you shouldn't be messing with them in the first place." So front mount IC will make car overheat if you don't do extensive work, how is it better than a vmount on controllinng water temp? When I overheated with a front mount, I have the cwest front bumper, 34 row oil cooler, and a vented hood. It was 110F ambient and I was driving 110 mph. After I switch to vmount, the water temp is aobut 10-15C lower and the air temp is almost the same under the same condition.

Next time you come down here to CA, I am more than happy to give you first hand expererice on vmount. In Hawaii, there is shop called hypersport racing and the shop car has a customer apex vmount. Maybe you can talk to them too.

Chuck

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

First off I've been running a V-mount for years, I can say with pretty good confidence I have more experince with this setup on a FD in the states than almost anyone, it works I know what my temps are I do not need to log anything to prove anything. I've compared similar setup cars on the same runs, routes, roads, tracks. It works and works well, ask my customers if I sell my setup and see what they say "NO" Why? because they will not want to pay for what is involved, ie. hood, ducting, and what not. This one(mine) would be classified as one of the few not seen properly done V-mounts in a FD. If I get the time when the car is put back together I will gladly put a pic up. I would give anything to find the old pics I have of the V-mounts that were run on some of the JGTC supras and yes with extensive ducting. Wether you like drift or not, explain to me how the thermal issues(loads) aren't the same or worse. If anything your going slower around the track with poorer angles for airflow and working the engine just as hard.

I will quantify my statement about how silly that sounds when you can prove there is less airflow to the rear rotor over a stock setup car. Because after all it is what the comparison would need to be against, being the hottest most restricted setup correct?

"Most", and if you read my posts on this subject in the past you will see I have said over and over most of the "street" setup "kits" are not what I am refering to, and both setups when done right as a whole can work well. It was a dumb statement period, don't like it, sorry, we all say dumb things Ted, being smart enough to see how dumb we were is the trick. Blanket statements like "V-mounts are more for show" spread ignorance to all the people on here with a lack of knowledge but want to learn and know no better. That is the biggest problem with these forums. Now I am done with these threads they are by far the most overdone next to the "turbo versus turbo threads" Both setups can and do work when the system is taken into account as a whole.

Jon Goodwin

As you are one who obviously always needs proof, instead of asking others to prove their theory have a go yourself. No one is trying to sell you anything, only sharing their knowledge...which is a lot more valuable. So perhaps you should take your head out of your **** and call it a day.

John
88 GT-R

radkins

Why don't you guys quit arguing about the best position for the IC and get alcohol injection. My temps are rock solid, and the more I boost, the lower they get. It makes all the ducting and IC spraying I used to do pointless.

modrx7

iTrader: (1)

ALcohol injection...??? Sorry if this is dumb, but what is that?

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

Water injection, it does work well, but I wont be pulling my IC out for it, that is for sure.

RETed

The pictures you showed looked mostly shop cars or club racing level vehicles.
Shop cars = for show, I don't need to explain that.
Club racers are not what I call top-tier motorsports racing.
JGTC racing is basically the top-tier level motorsports racing in Japan for showroom stock chassis / vehicles.


I did not imply this is only in terms of rotaries.
I already know the R.E.A JGTC GT-300 FD runs a PP 3-rotor with a restrictor.

I don't have them on hand.
I guess I better start searching for some...


You got data to back up this claim?

I don't think I ever said "overheating".
My comments were to state that the V-mount does not offer superior cooling, both air and coolant, versus a properly designed conventional front-mount.


]QUOTE]As far as for air cooling, the air coming out of the IC on the vmount will still go through the tranny tunnel. There is no way for air to exit except through the tranny tunnel. If you have a vented hood, some air is going to go through the vent no matter what kind of IC you have. People think a vented hood is necessary for vmount and the concept is totally wrong. A proper designed vmount works fine without a vented hood. [/QUOTE]
Oh, this is just plain stupid.
I won't even comment further.


You really don't want me to comment on Hypersports.


-Ted

RETed

I'm interested in pics myself.
I did not claim ALL v-mounts are bad - I should have stated MOST of them are.
Chuck has already mentioned he does v-mounts without a vented hood, and that's just plain stupid in my book.

Sure, I'm very interested in the pics.


Yes, but compare a typical drift run versus a 20 minute sprint race.
In the short duration in drifting, the thermals loads are higher, but in between "sessions", you can easily cool the car down
Most of the D1 stuff is just like that.


I didn't make that claim; I mentioned this, because others have states this in the past.



You can make almost anything work if you throw enough resources and money into it.
Maybe I need to quantify my statement as "not all"?
"Most" of the set-up's I've seen are inferior.
Chuck mentioned v-mount with no vented hood is inferior.
We can pick apart the symatics until we're all blue in the face, but I'm pretty sure I didn't say "ALL".
The word "all" qualifies as a blanket statement, but I don't think I said "all".


-Ted

RETed

You know what...
I really don't give a ))&)#@$% what you contribution to this thread.
Seriously, go *(^#$ yourself.

if you're not going to add anything constructive to the thread, you have no business posting replies like this.

So this is going to end up as a Mexican stand-off, where both sides are not going to offer data?

It's like a Catch-22.
I'm against v-mounts, so why would I bother messing with them in the first place?
I don't know ANYTHING personally that runs one, so I can't grab any data locally.
I'm sure someone here has one that can easily extract a datalog from?


-Ted

Jon Goodwin

Tit. Did you read earlier post? I am afraid i canīt give any data logs as there is no way of proving outside ambient temp. But suffice to say that on my amature setup i see no more than 6 degrees above ambient under load. Take it as you will.

I apologies if i touched a nerve... but you really do need to be more receptive.
Have a nice day.

John
88 GT-R