dradon03

iTrader: (2)

Been above 500 rwhp level for a few years running above 25 psi.

Looking to do the same potentially with a different turbo. Specifically looking at the EFR 9180 but have not seen any results yet; would be nice to hear from people running it.

rx72c

iTrader: (8)

You havn't seen any results yet from a 9180?

Are you kidding?

There is at least 5 threads on the first page of this forum that all have 9180 results.
One of them being mine.

dradon03

iTrader: (2)

You mean the one you posted with results on an engine that was 'ready to be binned' and not updated with meaningful information on a fresh engine?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

Hi Alex,

since you are looking for 600+ hp turbo flow will need to be 80 pounds per minute which is generally good for 630 tops.

the EFR 9180 of course fits the bill as it can do 94.

i suggest you widen your options in light of the recent performance gains from Borg Warner, Garrett and Precision.

a year ago, centering around the PRI, all 3 introduced new higher output turbos. a year later they are actually becoming available so you are looking to upgrade at the right time.

Borg Warner (note alphabetical as i am not playing favorites)

sure the EFR line grabs the attention w flashy build specs but there is a new kid on the block from Borg Warner that merits attention... the SXE line.

first the negatives V EFR.... no water cooling, journal bearing, std inconel turbine wheel.

the FIVE SXE turbos fit the rotary market as if they were primarily designed for our motors and they are bargain priced.

originally planned for a March 2015 release, the turbos were delayed until September so as to incorporate a significant performance discovery. since the SXE line uses virtually the same compressor wheel as the EFR family, and since we have EFR compressor maps and now, with the publication of the 2016 BW catalog we have all five of the SXE compressor maps, the improvement is clear to see... it relates mostly to the compressor cover and the details will end at this point.

of course BW will be switching the EFR line over to the new cover ASAP but at this time the cover is on all the SXE turbos.

i could post a comparo of the EFR 9180 map w the SXE 9180 map but lets keep this post simple.

the 70% efficiency island is 26% wider on the SXE 8374 than the EFR 8374 at two pressure ratios absolute. it is 25% wider on the SXE 9180 V the EFR 9180. at 3 pressure ratios it is 12% wider on both of the SXE turbos.

as mentioned there are 5 SXE sizes.

after a careful look, my bet is the "62" w the 76 hotside will attract 75% of our community as it will spool now and should be do 550 at 29 psi and max out around 580. compressor area 6.54.

next up is a "63" but it sports a 7.06 sq inch wheel and is only good for 580. i don't see swinging a bigger wheel than the 62 and getting just a hair more power. thumbs down on the 63.

the 64 (7.18) makes a legitimate 80 pounds so it will do 600. a good choice for some.

the 66 (7.74) should really rip. 85 pounds of air w a killer spool friendly 52 trim. 640 max power and 625 at 29 psi. i see it as a popular big power choice.

finally, the 9180 (69) (7.994) 97 pounds of air max at 37 psi and 94 pounds at 29 psi good for 730 and 707 respectively. a high trim at 57... favoring top end over midrange. you'd better have a bigtime clutch and driveline.

as you can see, if you are looking in the 600 area the 66 might be the ticket and the SXE line should be a worthy consideration. BTW, BW uprated the entire bearing assembly in the SXE line.

i am not knocking the EFR line but if i were buying an EFR at this time i would want to be getting the newer compressor cover as well as carefully weighing the cost/benefit relationship.

Garrett

Garrett has a new hand on the helm, Dan Sussna. the Garrett Division of Honeywell is now directly associated w Honeywell Aerospace and will be drawing on that division's significant engineering reserves.

the breakthrough GTW line, introduced last year will now be finally emerging as real product. the "W" stands for "wide." wide is good on compressor maps. i had the pleasure of spending an hour w Dan at the PRI last week. he is empowered to restructure anything within the Turbo Technologies Division. and will.

meanwhile, Alex, you could look at the GTW6765. (7.09). Garrett tags it as a 950 hp turbo. that would be 95 pounds of air and translate to 730 rotary hp. they do not presently plan to produce compressor maps so we will just have to see. given the 7.09 comp wheel size i have to say "show me" on this but Dan had a genuine Sxxx eating grin on his face whenever we got back to talking GTW flow.

the GTW6465 (6.84) is rated at 900 or 692 rotary which might be the Garrett fit.

i do have a GTW6262 (6.69) on order to compare w the SXE 62 so we will get a gauge. the GTWs are just becoming available and are available in ball bearing or journal bearing and are competitively priced.

while there are a bunch of legacy Garretts still available, the flow advances from the GTW line are persuasive.

Precision

both Borg Warner and Garrett turbos issue from multibillion dollar companies. Precision started 27 years ago offering slightly warmed Garrett turbos. the company is a perfect example of a successful startup that has rolled sevens. Precision has had to win to live. and it is prospering thru winning aggressive engineering. the latest iteration is the GEN2 turbo.

GEN2 PT66466SP (7.07) 692 max rotary hp. avail in 360 degree thrust journal bearing or a special ceramic ball bearing that can be either oil or air cooled.

GEN2 also is avail in a step smaller or larger.

FYI, i now offer (sell) all 3 lines of turbos at competitive pricing. further, i am available 7 days/week from 8 am/3:30 pm and from 7 til 8 pm to discuss the details such as fit/avail.

Howard

Glease Man

iTrader: (5)

Well put!! ^^^

WANKfactor

iTrader: (1)

Howard, where can we get more info on this new SXE comp cover vs the current EFR comp cover, and are they interchangeable?

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

I have had a few guys do 550 to now( 680rwhp) on EFR 9180s and our turbo kits/manifolds etc;

https://www.instagram.com/p/_TCKZYw1...en-by=turblown

I never got around to dyno tuning my 9180 FC @ 33psi, see the datalog below of 4th gear spool time( it would spin the tires at 100+mph too)

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"info on this new SXE comp cover vs the current EFR comp cover, and are they interchangeable?"

it is my understanding that they will be interchangeable and i was told a few months.

Neutron

iTrader: (10)

Very good info Howard. It's going to be very hard for me to justify going to a EFR 9180 when I can buy a SXE super core for under a grand while being a remove and replace bolt on.

Isn't the 66mm SXE rated at a max of 94 pound per hour? Full Race has it listed as a hair above the EFR 9180 as far a flow goes.

BorgWarner S300SXE 9180 - 66mm - Full-Race.com

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

Would love to see a real life rotary comparison between the GTW6262 (3684) ball bearing and the SXE362!

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"Isn't the 66mm SXE rated at a max of 94 pound per hour?"

you just knew we would get into compressor maps in this thread...

the ink is still drying on what you see immediately below...

2016 BW catalog S300 SXE 66 compressor map

as you can see the map goes all the way out to 56% efficiency. this is sort of like posting hp in STD v SAE.

you get a bigger headline number but in the real world after 60% things get dicey as to flow stability, heat, actual oxygen content and power needed to drive the compressor against the exponentially rising resistance. this is characterised by the compressor RPM maxing out against the choke force.

it is pretty clear that 85 pounds per minute is real close to max air at 60%.



Full Race is not pulling the higher number out of thin air but is merely using an earlier SXE map that extends to 94 using 56% efficiency.



i suggest you look at 60% for a proper relative output gauge.

the 66 is capable of producing 640 rotary rwhp.

another key 66 consideration is that it is the 9180 compressor wheel with a smaller inducer so the (52) trim will encourage earlier power.

Howard

eplusz

This makes me want to sell my efr.. lol

fd3CB

iTrader: (10)

Great info Howard, can't wait to see Garrett's new GTW turbos in action.

eplusz

So i can better sell the EFR 8374 EWG and get the SXE 366 saving me lots of money, maybe a tiny bit slower spool but more power...

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Or wait for BW to release the revised compressor cover for the EFR turbo and make more power without sacrificing spool.

ninesixtwo

iTrader: (9)

As I understood it, the SXE style housings will not be available for a while, but they will be coming with revised compressor wheel sizing. The current SXE housings are not compatible as they attach to the backing plate via bolts rather than the EFR style v band clamp.

From what I was able to feel out, I'm expecting a 1-2 year wait for that to happen.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"SXE style housings will not be available for a while, but they will be coming with revised compressor wheel sizing"

there are a number of new options in the works for both the EFR and SXE line. as i understand, that may include some EFR 8374 compressor wheel (as well as cover) changes. much of this is the typical looking forward talk which will eventually result in new product but is... forward.

the BW engineers freely share that BW, being an $8,000,000,000+ annual revenue co, things move at a measured pace.

while the tradeoff w BW and Garrett is a somewhat slower pace than the more agile Precision, the possible positive is more engineering resources as well as investment available to generate a high quality product.

i do believe that amongst BW's turbo line the SXE family is fully representative of what can happen when major resources are properly focused.

it will not be long before we will be able to accurately assess the 62. if things go well i am thinking the 66 SXE could be next in line before we move on to the GTW.

Howard

eplusz

I'm kind of regretting getting a efr.. No doubt it's a very good turbo but I had the SXE on my list to buy before i ended up going with the efr.

I want to hit 600+ hp and with the EFR 8374 1.05 I hear from lots of people that it's going to be hard.. I bought the turbo for a steal though and its brand new but debating whether to sell it and get an SXE..

ninesixtwo

iTrader: (9)

Don't regret buying an efr, regret buying a turbo that is too small for your goals. The main selling point of the efr is the low inertia turbine wheel, not a magical ability to support 50% more power than an equivalently sized Garrett or SXE.

eplusz

My goals were 500whp at first, but since I'm going all out on the setup I might as well adjust the amount of power I want the car to make.. (and still have a nice powerband + reaction). The SXE's were just out when I started putting together my setup and I settled with the EFR which should have been fine for 500.

But 1k difference for a turbine wheel is alot of money.. Maybe I'll get the SXE 366 and throw them both on the dynos to see whatsup when the time is near.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

If you go to all the effort of installing the two turbos and tuning the engine for them why choose the final turbo by the dyno chart?

Hit the track and see which set-up is fastest!

eplusz

Not gonna choose by dyno chart.. Will choose on which one is more fun to drive, but it wouldn't hurt to know how they compare against each other right?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"I want to hit 600+ hp and with the EFR 8374 1.05 I hear from lots of people that it's going to be hard.."

"hard" would be a fair appraisal. this is the latest compressor map for the EFR8374.



looking for max flow, i find it on the 128,000 rpm line just as it goes into choke
(vertical as in no further increase).

78 pounds per minute.

is 1128 CFM and 589 rotary rwhp SAE... of course if you want a higher number you could use Standard Correction and presto, 603 hp.

the turbo may or may not actually be able to be driven to the max point on the map of course. at that point the efficiency is dropping literally exponentially so both the power to drive the turbo, around 100 hp, and the air outlet temperature are rising in a similar manner. neither good for power so you may or may not be able to actually do the 589.

nevertheless, considering the compressor is only 3.7% larger than a GT35 the EFR8374, is a clear representative of the recent advances in turbo technology.

the SXE 62/8376 (same compressor wheel, different compressor cover and 2 mm larger turbine wheel) puts out pretty much the same max flow but has wider efficiency islands and a better surge line.

rotaryfreak3

It could be worth noting that water injection might shift the map over enough to get him to 600, but only just barely, assuming it is possible in the real world to begin with. What is the max rotary whp we have seen out of the 8374 so far? Not that chasing a specific hp number is necessarily a great idea.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

200 shot of Nitrous Oxide will help make it a realistic goal (ie, get air into motor after the turbo).

Or you can just lie about your dyno #s or find a dyno/make a dyno lie for you (easy).

A 550rwhp EFR 8374 RX-7 is going to be faster than a 600rwhp any other turbo RX-7 anyways (power under curve).