Titanium Apex Seals
08-12-14, 09:22 PM
#1
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Titanium Apex Seals
O K, maybe not exactly but they might be.
last October i lost my fuel (pump fuse) at 9000 in third and when i shifted to 4th, no power.
not only did i lose fuel into the motor but i lost all of the porcelain from the interior of my L2 plug.
as comparison, here's a new plug. notice the white stuff.
where'd the white stuff go?
detonation sends violent shock waves thru the motor and also raises temps miles beyond the normal crazy temps existent inside a 550 hp rotary.
it would appear, from the missing porcelain i encountered detonation but it also could be the high temps from the momentary lean condition.
any opinions on the matter are welcome.
heat takes the starch out of springs. the fuel failure flattened my corner seal springs in an instant. (apex seal springs are fine)
drumroll.........
now check out my 6 Goopy apex seals.
not only are they in one piece, they are straight!
losing a fuel pump when full throttle is deadly. the motor goes lean before it shuts off. it might just be a second but that is 300 power events at 9000.
Thank You Goopy for your apex seal technology. i won't be needing to replace my rotors or rotor housings. i could actually run the seals again. amazing considering what they went thru. they will, instead, travel to Goopy for analysis.
BTW, i am not a dealer but they have been and will continue to be the seal i use in my CPR motors.
do make sure you have proper fusing for your pump
and i am still wondering what happened to the porcelain as my motor is untouched. i am switching from the AR3932 to BR10EG which are working well around 575.
Howard
last October i lost my fuel (pump fuse) at 9000 in third and when i shifted to 4th, no power.
not only did i lose fuel into the motor but i lost all of the porcelain from the interior of my L2 plug.
as comparison, here's a new plug. notice the white stuff.
where'd the white stuff go?
detonation sends violent shock waves thru the motor and also raises temps miles beyond the normal crazy temps existent inside a 550 hp rotary.
it would appear, from the missing porcelain i encountered detonation but it also could be the high temps from the momentary lean condition.
any opinions on the matter are welcome.
heat takes the starch out of springs. the fuel failure flattened my corner seal springs in an instant. (apex seal springs are fine)
drumroll.........
now check out my 6 Goopy apex seals.
not only are they in one piece, they are straight!
losing a fuel pump when full throttle is deadly. the motor goes lean before it shuts off. it might just be a second but that is 300 power events at 9000.
Thank You Goopy for your apex seal technology. i won't be needing to replace my rotors or rotor housings. i could actually run the seals again. amazing considering what they went thru. they will, instead, travel to Goopy for analysis.
BTW, i am not a dealer but they have been and will continue to be the seal i use in my CPR motors.
do make sure you have proper fusing for your pump
and i am still wondering what happened to the porcelain as my motor is untouched. i am switching from the AR3932 to BR10EG which are working well around 575.
Howard
08-13-14, 07:20 AM
#3
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
the housings look good enough to re-use however i am going to send them in for a hone.
if i wanted to do a minimalist rebuild, i could replace the corner seal springs, add a spark plug and it could be running this afternoon. it would probably run well.
i don't do minimalist rebuilds.
i was running Titanium studs and did want to see if there were any signs of housing movement so it was interesting to take a look. i like what i saw. also, i have gone to 10.9 stationary gear bolts on my builds (43% more clamp force) and will swap them in to this motor which has the OE bolts.
hc
if i wanted to do a minimalist rebuild, i could replace the corner seal springs, add a spark plug and it could be running this afternoon. it would probably run well.
i don't do minimalist rebuilds.
i was running Titanium studs and did want to see if there were any signs of housing movement so it was interesting to take a look. i like what i saw. also, i have gone to 10.9 stationary gear bolts on my builds (43% more clamp force) and will swap them in to this motor which has the OE bolts.
hc
08-13-14, 07:55 AM
#5
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
"My opinion re the spark plugs, You are using the incorrect tool for the job, those spark plugs are not designed for what you are doing with them."
you may be correct. they were recommended by a guy who had a hand in the design of the IGN-1A coils as being really good w inductive ignition.
they are run in Sprint Cup motors.
doing the math however, the NASCAR connection is less exciting than at first blush.
350 cubic inches, 850 hp. (don't know if that is FW or RW so let's assume RW)
850/350 = 2.4 hp per cubic inch
my motor
575/80 = 7.2 hp per cubic inch
as you said the app is probably wrong and the problem is the porcelain insulator design. the plugs did run well up until the fuel pump fuse failure. there were no misfires at 9000 etc. given that we just completed over 140 runs on the dyno w another of my motors w the same turbo at the same power levels w the NGK BR10EG plugs i will probably switch to them.
i am trying to stay w nickel copper and away from platinum given the fact i am running E85 w a modest amount of meth as AI to further lower IATs.
HC
you may be correct. they were recommended by a guy who had a hand in the design of the IGN-1A coils as being really good w inductive ignition.
they are run in Sprint Cup motors.
doing the math however, the NASCAR connection is less exciting than at first blush.
350 cubic inches, 850 hp. (don't know if that is FW or RW so let's assume RW)
850/350 = 2.4 hp per cubic inch
my motor
575/80 = 7.2 hp per cubic inch
as you said the app is probably wrong and the problem is the porcelain insulator design. the plugs did run well up until the fuel pump fuse failure. there were no misfires at 9000 etc. given that we just completed over 140 runs on the dyno w another of my motors w the same turbo at the same power levels w the NGK BR10EG plugs i will probably switch to them.
i am trying to stay w nickel copper and away from platinum given the fact i am running E85 w a modest amount of meth as AI to further lower IATs.
HC
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08-13-14, 07:53 PM
#8
talking head
are they really titanium? i know jon from goopy was quite tight on handing out that information
your original plug looks a lot like an NGK B? ES.. which feature a conventional sized copper and nickle tip and are a very cheap bike racing plug
.. and i know from my own experiences that these can be prone to throwing a porcelin after a flood and restart
( i am thinking it has liquid between the porcelain and the anode and the rapid expansion of the liquid boiling and the copper cracks the porcelain .. something similar happens with the iridium plugs which are more prone due to the welding technique of fixing the anode )
am keen to see how your BREGs hold up , have been using them for years as the most cost effective alternative high performance plug
though in your boat ( am thinking you have FFE wheel and hall effect pickups?? ) you could run with the non resistive version which seem more lively down low than the BR versions
your original plug looks a lot like an NGK B? ES.. which feature a conventional sized copper and nickle tip and are a very cheap bike racing plug
.. and i know from my own experiences that these can be prone to throwing a porcelin after a flood and restart
( i am thinking it has liquid between the porcelain and the anode and the rapid expansion of the liquid boiling and the copper cracks the porcelain .. something similar happens with the iridium plugs which are more prone due to the welding technique of fixing the anode )
am keen to see how your BREGs hold up , have been using them for years as the most cost effective alternative high performance plug
though in your boat ( am thinking you have FFE wheel and hall effect pickups?? ) you could run with the non resistive version which seem more lively down low than the BR versions
08-14-14, 06:36 AM
#9
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
just kidding on the titanium. they are the .004 oversized Goopy option which is such a smart option for slightly oversized apex seal grooves. a bit of filing and you go from sloppy to just right. i don't know why other apex seal companies don't offer such an option. they sure beat 3 mm.
yes, i am thinking separation of the entire ceramic piece was the most likely initial step towards disappearance. i will say that up until the fuel pump fuse died the plugs worked perfectly. probably 100 dyno pulls to over 8500 rpm including a few to 8950 in fifth gear.
at zero smoothing we had a smooth power line indicating there were no misfires. at this point i am looking for a plug where the porcelain will stay put at 550/600.
not an easy task considering the pressure and heat in our 80 cu inch/1.3 liter motors.
one of the reasons i switched to copper nickel was my concern about platinum and methanol. i may have encountered detonation due to running platinum (6725s) plugs and around 3000 cc of meth as AI w my pump gas setup.
while i run E85 and do not need meth for anti-detonation i do run meth (just 1000 CC) to cool my IAT.
i run two (one between the turbo and IC and one in the stock location) thermocouples to log accurate real time IATs. thermocouple have zero lag and are accurate to the degree F. i see a max number of 400 F out of my GT4094r at 27 psi and a max number of 200 F into my motor.
meth takes about 50F out of the charge air.
as to the BR10EG, we did finish a tune out session w one of my engine customers at 577 SAE at 27 psi w them and they have worked perfectly. he has taken a lot of skins on the street since the session and is still running the plugs.
as to what happens when and if he encounters detonation... that remains to be seen.
howard
yes, i am thinking separation of the entire ceramic piece was the most likely initial step towards disappearance. i will say that up until the fuel pump fuse died the plugs worked perfectly. probably 100 dyno pulls to over 8500 rpm including a few to 8950 in fifth gear.
at zero smoothing we had a smooth power line indicating there were no misfires. at this point i am looking for a plug where the porcelain will stay put at 550/600.
not an easy task considering the pressure and heat in our 80 cu inch/1.3 liter motors.
one of the reasons i switched to copper nickel was my concern about platinum and methanol. i may have encountered detonation due to running platinum (6725s) plugs and around 3000 cc of meth as AI w my pump gas setup.
while i run E85 and do not need meth for anti-detonation i do run meth (just 1000 CC) to cool my IAT.
i run two (one between the turbo and IC and one in the stock location) thermocouples to log accurate real time IATs. thermocouple have zero lag and are accurate to the degree F. i see a max number of 400 F out of my GT4094r at 27 psi and a max number of 200 F into my motor.
meth takes about 50F out of the charge air.
as to the BR10EG, we did finish a tune out session w one of my engine customers at 577 SAE at 27 psi w them and they have worked perfectly. he has taken a lot of skins on the street since the session and is still running the plugs.
as to what happens when and if he encounters detonation... that remains to be seen.
howard
08-14-14, 07:49 AM
#10
NGK 7420s use iridium instead of platinum. They're the right reach and the right heat range. Only downside is the cost. But you have to pay to play.
Detonation will easily wipe the porcelain off the plug. Power level has nothing to do with it. You detonated the engine and pulled out a broken plug. No great mystery there.
Detonation will easily wipe the porcelain off the plug. Power level has nothing to do with it. You detonated the engine and pulled out a broken plug. No great mystery there.
08-15-14, 07:24 AM
#16
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
"NGK 7420-11 are the best plugs out there in my opinion."
yes, it looks that way. i did speak to an NGK tech ystda and came to the same conclusion. he was helpful/knowlegable even in re to rotaries.
the primary diff between the 7420 and the 6725 is iridium. according to him (Rob MacDonald) iridium is higher density, more durable and conducts more electrical power than platinum. he is unaware of any incidence where platinum and methanol caused a problem. he mentioned that the ceramic material in both the Br10EG and 7420/6725 are the same but the structure is different and less likely to be compromised. the 7420/6725 reach is superior at 21 mm V 19.05 delivering a spark closer to the mix. it is also worth noting that the high dollar plugs do have a resistor and are less likely to interrupt important ECU functions as well as your radio.
given my experience w the BR10EGs, i wouldn't hesitate to run them at lower power levels but it does appear the high dollar plugs should be the proper choice at higher output levels.
i realise, BTW, that this isn't new news to many but some may find this helpful. i had been running the 6725s for 8 years and switched when i converted from CDI to full inductive. i have numerous 6725s and 7420s and will dust them off as backups to a fresh set of 7420s which are on the way.
hc
yes, it looks that way. i did speak to an NGK tech ystda and came to the same conclusion. he was helpful/knowlegable even in re to rotaries.
the primary diff between the 7420 and the 6725 is iridium. according to him (Rob MacDonald) iridium is higher density, more durable and conducts more electrical power than platinum. he is unaware of any incidence where platinum and methanol caused a problem. he mentioned that the ceramic material in both the Br10EG and 7420/6725 are the same but the structure is different and less likely to be compromised. the 7420/6725 reach is superior at 21 mm V 19.05 delivering a spark closer to the mix. it is also worth noting that the high dollar plugs do have a resistor and are less likely to interrupt important ECU functions as well as your radio.
given my experience w the BR10EGs, i wouldn't hesitate to run them at lower power levels but it does appear the high dollar plugs should be the proper choice at higher output levels.
i realise, BTW, that this isn't new news to many but some may find this helpful. i had been running the 6725s for 8 years and switched when i converted from CDI to full inductive. i have numerous 6725s and 7420s and will dust them off as backups to a fresh set of 7420s which are on the way.
hc
08-15-14, 09:57 AM
#18
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
NGK R 7420
heat range.......... product code
9.........................6448
10.......................5501
10.5....................4857
11.......................7756
heat range.......... product code
9.........................6448
10.......................5501
10.5....................4857
11.......................7756
08-15-14, 01:23 PM
#20
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
wow, (only) $27 each at O'Reilly...
i cannot answer your question properly as far as all four or two... maybe someone else can. considering i am about to fire up my BW EFR9180 which can make 94 pounds of air i will be doing four..
as to heat range it depends on what you have and how you use and tune it. i was always happy w all 10s on pump and AI.
howard
i cannot answer your question properly as far as all four or two... maybe someone else can. considering i am about to fire up my BW EFR9180 which can make 94 pounds of air i will be doing four..
as to heat range it depends on what you have and how you use and tune it. i was always happy w all 10s on pump and AI.
howard
08-17-14, 08:19 AM
#23
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
"are the 7420 ok to use in a full inductive ignition?"
that is a great question.
a few years ago there was a very lively debate re CDI V inductive. i had run CDI for 8 years w no misfires but became convinced by Lance Nist to swap out to inductive/ IGN-1A. he suggested the Autolite route as well as, generally, copper nickel plugs.
i will say that the AR3932s worked well to 9000 rpm w no misfires until i lost a fuel pump fuse/fuel pressure and encountered detonation. the entire interior ceramic separated. even though the plug is run in Sprint Cup (BTW, 206 mph pole at MIS yesterday) the engines are making just under 2.5 hp per cubic inch. we are around 8 hp per cubic inch at the 600 mark.
based on my past experience w the sister plugs (6725), the Ludwig suggestion, Flaco's post and NGK Tech i am going back to the Plat/Iridium fine wire plugs. i have had two instances of a brief detonation and the ceramics on the plug was not effected.
HC
that is a great question.
a few years ago there was a very lively debate re CDI V inductive. i had run CDI for 8 years w no misfires but became convinced by Lance Nist to swap out to inductive/ IGN-1A. he suggested the Autolite route as well as, generally, copper nickel plugs.
i will say that the AR3932s worked well to 9000 rpm w no misfires until i lost a fuel pump fuse/fuel pressure and encountered detonation. the entire interior ceramic separated. even though the plug is run in Sprint Cup (BTW, 206 mph pole at MIS yesterday) the engines are making just under 2.5 hp per cubic inch. we are around 8 hp per cubic inch at the 600 mark.
based on my past experience w the sister plugs (6725), the Ludwig suggestion, Flaco's post and NGK Tech i am going back to the Plat/Iridium fine wire plugs. i have had two instances of a brief detonation and the ceramics on the plug was not effected.
HC
08-18-14, 09:06 AM
#24
wow, (only) $27 each at O'Reilly...
i cannot answer your question properly as far as all four or two... maybe someone else can. considering i am about to fire up my BW EFR9180 which can make 94 pounds of air i will be doing four..
as to heat range it depends on what you have and how you use and tune it. i was always happy w all 10s on pump and AI.
howard
i cannot answer your question properly as far as all four or two... maybe someone else can. considering i am about to fire up my BW EFR9180 which can make 94 pounds of air i will be doing four..
as to heat range it depends on what you have and how you use and tune it. i was always happy w all 10s on pump and AI.
howard
Thanks!
08-18-14, 09:18 AM
#25
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
i generally see nice color on four tens. BTW, since you are in Wi i strongly suggest you get to know Luke Stubbs at Beyond Redline in Green Bay. Luke is an extremely talented tuner. we Wisconsinites are very fortunate to have him so close.
howard
howard