Pierrel

As some of you may know, my current turbo has had a deformed turbine housing, causing the turbine blades to mill down, and well i don't see any way of really saving it with reasonable amounts of money since no one does work/have parts for Turbonetics turbos in Sweden.

Instead, I'm looking at getting myself a new toy.

Here's my setup
Haltech PS1000
ID850/2200 injectors
BUR9EQ plugs
3mm Apex seals
Medium street port
1 Precision 46mm External wastegate
slightly warped manifold (like the one in rx7store kits)
Aeromotive 340 fuel pump
V-mount
3" exhaust (no cat)
Pump gas
No meth/water yet, but plan to install during the winter.

Before i bought the car it made 447 whp and 477NM (352 lbs) of torque with a Turbonetics T66 turbo on 13 psi. I think the turbo was bad already when i bought it but didn't notice since this is my first high performance turbo car. Lots of new things to learn!

What I am aiming to achieve
The possibility to run 400-500 whp
Good drivability as i do want to try some Time attack racing
Water and oil cooled turbo

So, what would you suggest?
I know the IW EFR turbos are all the rage, and i would love a 8473! But, thats at least 5k USD shipped to Sweden!
A GT3582R with a A/R 1,06 turbine is about 1500 USD.
A GT4088R , 1,06 A/R is close to 1800 USD.

Point is, is its worth an extra 3,5k USD just to get the ERF turbo when i have pretty much everything already? Sure, i don't get the awesomeness of the EFR turbos, but then i have money for a engine rebuild/checkup instead. I might want to change out my exhaust manifold this winter, but if i want to drive the car anytime this year, i really don't see an EFR on the car.
Summer is short, I've only got about 3 months worth of driving left before winter

Please, what do you think? Quite a long post, but i hope you have all the important specs of the car.

silverTRD

iTrader: (36)

External waste gate efr

WANKfactor

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like you were having an exhaust heat issue? Turbo beanie?

The gt35 you mention will work fine.
Best bang for buck seems to be BW s300 and turblown tdx61. The gt35 will probably spool faster.
As above, efr8374 ewg is a gun. Thats what im running too.

All these options are smaller than a t66 though.

Pierrel

Yes, there must have been an heat issue, but no turbo beanie.
I haven't driven the car much, not even hard at all, making me think its been like this since i bought it. Also, the exhaust has been hanging freely between the turbo and bout 2/3 towards the rear. Ive since welded supports, but i think thats what caused the damaged/cracked housing.

The guy who has tuned my car before suggested a GT4094R which is readily available and cost about 1700USD.
Don't know about the price in Sweden, but a S300SX-E 8376 (S362) seems like a nice contender as well, being close to the EFR8374. The price of an imported one, with shipping, taxes and customs would probably be just over the price of the GT4094R

Also, is a 1.06 turbine housing the housing to get?

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

would it be cheaper for you if i just bough it and sent it to you.. i mean if i can get the turbo for 800, and shipping is 200....

my biggest pet peeve with this earth is the flux of prices by region. like whys gas 50-10 bucks a a gallon when its 2:10 in alabama! its not like alabama has all the gas spewing out of the ground, it's Saudi gas!

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

We've got our TDX turbochargers and I believe the SXE units in stock.

You're dyno must read high, there is no way you can make 477rwhp at 13psi on a medium street port FYI.

Turblown TDX Series Turbochargers

Borg Warner Turbo Systems | Borg Warner Turbochargers | SXE | EFR

Pierrel

Thanks, thats a very kind offer! Though i don't think ill avoid any taxes or customs charges, which would be another 30-40% added to the price.
Just to mention gas prices, I'm paying about 7usd/gallon. Owning a rotary aint cheap, but loads of fun!

I haven't been to the actual dyno, and don't know what kind of dyno it is so you might absolutely be right. 447 rwhp was the numbers. Ive attached the graph itself, not showing any boost numbers.

I think ill go with a locally bought Garret, due to ease of everything. Ill probably have it here by the end of next week and then it should bolt right onto the car.
Question is, is an 1.06 A/R too big, and should i go with a 0,95 A/R instead?

Thanks all of you, this community is great and so understanding of us "new guys"

ZoomZoom

iTrader: (2)

1.06 hot side is what most of us with Garrett turbos use.
I have a GT35R and I've considered the same thing in regards to upgrading to an EFR or get a better Garrett.
If I stay with the Garrett I would probably go with a GTX35R. Bit better wheel design. Should make more power and spool just as fast as before. I just don't know if going to an EFR 8374 is a big enough increase in performance for the $$ compared to just doing an GTX Garrett.

Brettus

A really cheap option might be to just fit a GT3582r 11blade billet wheel . Should be a bolt in part (comes balanced , but you could get the assy. rebalanced if you were concerned about that) and flow somewhere between a cast 3582 wheel and a genuine gtx3582. Worth a try ...............
Turbo Billet Compressor Wheel Garrett GT3582R 3540 61.3/82mm/56 Trim/11+0 Blade

Brettus

Agreed . That kind of thing is really annoying .
I once saw someone claim 425whp at 10psi with a GT35 on a renesis !

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

wait wasn't that turblown?>

Pierrel

Indeed, the EFR kits are expensive, but they seem to be high quality and everyone who gets them seems over the moon about them!

Im worried the GT4094R will be too big, and the GT3582R too small. It really sucks that shipping expensive parts from the US gets even more expensive due to Swedish import laws... Otherwise i would probably pick up a TDX61.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

thanks for the PM on your thread...

you are probably right about the GT35 being too small and the GT4094r being too large. given you are dealing w two significant factors... a short summer and 30/40% customs and given you want 400-500 i would go w the 4094r.

it is an under-loved rotary turbo but not by me. i own one and have extensive experience w it.

the GT4094r is Garrett's hybrid. a big punch in a small frame possessing high build quality.

one of my customers made 614 SAE (627 STD) at 25.5 psi. it will never break a sweat cranking out 400/500. once you are out of first gear which goes by in a flash lag is not a significant factor. i made 403 SAE at 5000 and 448 at 5500 at 25 psi. dial the boost back a bit and you will get what you need power-wise.

while it is approx 100 hp more than your 500 objective it is just a matter of working the boost, probably around 17 give or take for the 500. w the GT35 you will be working it at 100% to get near your top objective which results in high IAT and often bad things happen...

just to be clear, if you lived in the U S, given your objectives i would recommend the BW S300 SXE 62 w the 76 hotside wheel and 1.0 back end. 500/580 power, super cheap, high build quality and a perfect fit for your needs.

assuming an $800 pricetag (or thereabouts) it would be your bolt on answer.

given a couple of hun for shipping and another approx 300 for customs along w the delay as we near the Summer Solstice i would go w the 4094r. summer IS short especially in your latitude.

but of course it isn't that simple...

fuel, and ignition, should always be sized for max power output.

i use 10.0 AFR.

600 rotory rwhp = 1152 CFM
1152 CFM = 79.6 call it 80 Pounds of air per minute
80/10 = 8 pounds of gasoline per minute
8/ 6.35 = 1.26 gallons per minute
1.26 = 4770 NET CC per minute
4770 X 1.35 (lag and duty) = 6440 Gross injector required

you have 6100 so you are O K

i am concerned about your wastegate size...

a larger turbo means you will need to bypass more to control boost. too small a bypass equals boost creep.

your one 46 mm WG has 2.575 sq inches of area

if you were to switch to the Precision/Tial 60 mm you would increase the area 70% to 4.382.
i run one 60 mm and have no boost creep at 16 psi w my 4094r.

if you do the 4094 i do suggest you switch out the Stealth pump for a Walbro 90000262 with install kit (another PN). 650 capable at 30 psi and 13.5 V versus 530 capable 30/13.5. absolutely need to hardwire the fuel pump for full V. fuel pump can be a winter project but be careful re the Stealth this summer. you do need to log fuel pressure!

as to AI, you probably know what follows... i believe AI belongs on any gas fueled FD. around 300 hp it cleans the internals and well as lowers temps prolonging straight apex seals and non-collapsed corner seal springs.

above 300 it does the above plus eliminates detonation on a properly tuned setup.

do not kid yourself as to, I am just going to run low power until i get it. 400 hp, for example is not low power... it is very high output per displacement,. the BREW, w magnificent peripheral exhaust ports etc can make huge power which makes huge combustion chamber pressure and heat... gasoline auto-ignites around 450 degree F.

a combo of a poorly designed turbo manifold, a small WG causes exhaust backup into the next intake stroke and...

get your AI working on this setup. i recommend 100% meth if you can do it.

your peak torque looks pretty good on the sheet around 6200.

good luck,

Howard

Pierrel

Wow, thanks a lot Howard! Really means a lot. I have been reading through most of your threads regarding the 4094R, some were quite extensive!

Now i feel a bit more relaxed about the 4094R, with a 1.06 hotside.
The previous owner has run this car hard since the engine was built in 2009, these last 2 years with a T66 turbo, on pump gas and no AI. Its a bit slow to start, figured it was the 850 inj, but maybe my engine has been taking a beating...

Regarding the wastegate, i fully understand. I think i will have to replace the manifold as well due to the collector part (where the exhaust gasses are divided into the turbo) have warped and will leak exhaust gasses between the two (i can take a picture to show how it looks). I just need to find a manifold that make it possible to mount the turbo between the strut tower and engine, as my V-mount takes up a lot of space making it impossible to mount the turbo forward of the engine. If there is such a manifold...

I will have to research AI more. I have been looking at AEM kit, or cooling mist. It would be nice to have it wired into the Haltech, making it more failsafe i believe.

All of this is very, very new to me. Might have been the wrong car, engine, power level to start with, but I'm learning and i hope to learn even more without causing much damage.

Thanks again, all of you!

Brettus

Might have been .I hope they don't use such a dodgy dyno to promote their RX8 turbo kit ......................

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

i was just kidding it was not turblown, but i think i know what you're talking about .

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

13.5 vs 16.5 psi from our TDX57 journal bearing turbo. This is on e85 with a full 3 inch exhaust, large stock mount intercooler, and a medium streetport. Adaptronic FD pnp with ign1a smart coils. I did not put an agressive tune on it. Clutch slipped when I started turning up the boost controller for more response.

FwkUiWN

iTrader: (1)

Hey Brettus and Phase! Always good to see familiar names from 8club

Just to clarify it was Turblown....
http://www.turblown.net/store/produc...Turbo_Dyno.jpg

jantore

Im running a GT4904r on a BP rew engine and making 528 rwhp at 1.35bar of boost with 98 and water/meth. And have 1 bar of boost at 4000 rpm so plenty to play with.

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

HEY well lookie there... whats up with this elliot, any details to shine on this?

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

lastphaseofthis
Quote:
Originally Posted by FwkUiWN View Post
Hey Brettus and Phase! Always good to see familiar names from 8club

Just to clarify it was Turblown....
http://www.turblown.net/store/produc...Turbo_Dyno.jpg
HEY well lookie there... whats up with this elliot, any details to shine on this?

*Shrug* Looks like the Renesis flows well at high rpm with the big exhaust AR.

See how it doesn't make any torque, but the peak torque is at 7,500rpm?

That 280ftlbs torque is consistent with 10-12 psi boost with free flowing exhaust AR.

Brettus

The whp figure is believable . It's been done since . The 10psi claim (on a stock Renesis) is nothing short of a joke.............................IMO

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

From my memory( keep in mind that dyno was over 5 years ago);

It was 11 psi, not 10. The tank was half full of race gas. The dyno was in shoot out mode( dynojet settings). That was the first Rx-8 I had ever put on a chassis dyno & that dyno is not known for putting out BS numbers( previous Rx-7s matched other dynos in town). I had every intention of checking it on a another dyno, but the owner's father was flying in the following day from out of state to pick it up. I asked the owner to come back at a later date to try again,( which we did do, but the manual controller stuck, and it boost spiked- blew the engine). Another dyno in town that we used a few days prior on the same car read 300~ish rwhp at 10psi on pump gas, aux ports closed, and the engine chocking on too much fuel. We moved to that dyno, added the race gas, leaned it out and it made around 345rwhp. Opened the aux ports( which is basically like engaging a bigger port than you can put into an Rx7 engine) and it picked up 75rwhp on the very top end. None of that was out of the ordinary to us. As mentioned the torque curve is very low, and matched similar Rx7 motors with smaller ports. I also tell everyone who calls, and or purchases the kit not to expect 400rwhp til around 14/15psi on pump fuel, and that they should use E85. I thought I had edited that into the website years ago, but it appears I did not.

Brettus

Thanks for the explanation . I just checked your website and see you have edited it to better reflect what was actually achieved.
I still have a hard time believing that (at a slightly higher) 11psi and on race gas it is possible to make 425whp on a Renesis .
I'm fairly sure that no-one has ever even come close to that on any turbo (let alone a GT35) since.

I guess if you take off 45whp (10% for optimistic dynojet mode), add the extra 1psi making it 11 , add race gas . Add a cold day into it and don't use any correction ....
It starts to get within the realms of possibility.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I don't have any experience with turbo charging a Renesis.

I have some experience with rotaries, turbos and dynos. Whether the turbo can make the claimed power at 11psi or 16psi could be just up to some "variables".

Gauge offset, gauge accuracy-
I often find there is a 1-2psi boost difference between ECU MAP sensor reading, boost gauge reading and dyno MAP reading even if they are all taken off the same nipple.
Supply voltage affects output voltage to the gauge, so voltage drops affect boost readings. The voltage supply difference is the "offset".

Autometer mechanical boost gauges are regularly 2-4psi off in either direction from sheer lack of precision.

Air filter (turbo Pressure Ratio VS gauge boost)-
On my RX-7 TII with 60-1 turbo I ran a big 6" base by 12" long K&N filter on a 6" to 3" velocity stack. Sounds pretty free flowing... Dyno runs with and without the filter indeed showed the same power everywhere.

But, boost with the air filter removed was 2psi lower (ie we were maxing the 60-1 flow). So, I could choose if I wanted to say the 60-1 was making 380rwhp at 12psi or 10psi or a whopping 385rwhp at 18psi.

We put this same intake tube/air filter on a turbo honda in place of the 3" inlet Ebay cone filter and gained 30whp peak on back to back dyno runs!

Put it on my friends na honda and gained 0hp. Engine did not need anymore flow capability LOL.

Correction factor-
If that temp probe or weather station gets close to the rotary exhaust instead of the actual intake air temps you can get some serious power "gains" through correction factor. A shady and sure way to please customers with an extra 5-30rwhp.
Oh, you have un-boxed ITBs? Lets make that hood closed heat soak power loss a power gain... on paper.

Race gas-
There is race gas and there is race gas.
Oxygenated race gas will give you 5% power gains (20hp on 400hp car).

Nitromethane blends will give you up to 2.5 times your pump gas power. You would think no one in their right mind would call this $80-100/gallon concoction gas or even race gas, but I personally know someone who runs this in their NA Honda for... cred on the streets.

All this adds up to?
Its a dyno chart from someone trying to sell you something. There is a chance they will use the chart that presents their product in the best light.

You can do the same things to your car if you just want a dyno chart to brag about and believe me people do all these and more.

Caveat emptor.