Turboanka

Hello Everyone,

I'm frustrated and desperate for any help I can get!! The track day is within five days and the car is still not drivable.

Here is the background;

The car is a ‘93 R1,
single turbo (HKS kit),
large intercooler,
3" straight through exhaust,
550cc pri/1300cc sec,
upgraded fuel pump,
PMS computer.

The car was running well last year, but was running out of fuel on the top end. Now I installed the 1300cc sec. and cleaned up the rat's nest. Only left on the EGR.

Here is the problem;

Got the car to idle, but any throttle application (in neutral) other than a very gentle one stalls the engine. It also runs shitty above ~3000RPM (while driving).

Here is the query;

Anyone has experience with a similar setup? Are there any fuel map suggestions? Under what conditions does the stock ECU turn on the secondaries?

Please reply or if I don't make it to the race, it's your fault!

But seriously, any help is gratefully appreciated.

Anka

artguy

i thought i answerd this already...the forum keeps deleting posts...but Ill say it again

if you drive that car without testing it on a wideband and doing the necessary tuning then you will run the very high risk of blowing your motor possibly even ruining your turbo.

worst case scenerio of course....

get it tuned...you should not even be driving it until you get a wideband...let alone racing it at the track...why would you take a fully done rx to the track before you dyno tuned it?...or wideband tuned it on the street?

good luck

jason

SPOautos

Did you put resisters in all the now open plugs on the wire harness??? That might have something to do with it. What about all you grounds? Did you install the injectors right? man you changed so much stuff it could be quite a few things. Did you hook your fuel pressure regulator back up? One of the solenoids is for the fpr and you can either leave that one in there or run the line straight from teh fpr to the uim.

STEPHEN

Turboanka

Artguy,
I don’t usually waste my time on people that can’t even read a question properly much less answer it properly, but enough is enough!
Fist off, nobody asked you to comment on my problem again - besides there isn’t anything useful that you have contributed. Please next time stick to the questions that people have and don’t go off ranting about your blow engine – and to quote you: “you are lucky you havent blown your **** up already. trust me on that. you can blow from both rich and lean…”
Who has ever blown an engine all of a sudden from running it rich? - the only way it could happen is when the fuel dilates the oil, but it’s a longer process so you have some notice.

Back to my issue, I never said that I’m running the car in this condition (only test drove it for 500 meters) - the problem is, I can’t get it to idle much less tune it. Tip: read the whole thread!

So without further ado, thank you to all the people that have actually given me some good tips to try. Artguy, take a page from their book. – with your so-called tips you should stick to your drawing.

artguy

Ill say it again....but in different words...maybe this will help you understand what i was trying to say.

no one can give you fuel map suggestions as every car is different....even a car with the same mods will not necessarily have the same maps you need. that was the point of my rant about my motor and bad maps. read between the lines. I got my fuel map suggestions from kdr and from xs engineering..both of which ran way too lean...and too rich at times...the kdr map was even based on some datalogs I sent them....the xs suggested maps led to detonation.... You cant tune a car like yours without a wideband...it aint worth the time to attempt it. you are not hearing me..or listening it seems.

the only advice they can tell you about your fuel maps is to have a nice smooth feul curve and appropriate afrs for what you are running....which you cant know without a wideband.

the xs maps had the wrong pim settings and i couldnt even drive it around the block...it idled horribly and would quit out and smoked like mad.

I did read your whole thread btw....you wanted to know why you could only get the car to idle...you wanted to know if anyone had any map suggestions for you and you wanted to race the car in five days when you havent tuned it at all. both of your problems were experienced by me in similar ways. I was simply offering my input based on those personal experiences.

I have a similar setup as you do in terms of hp numbers and such...you run a piggy back low end ecu...i run the pfc and the m2 turbos. I had very similar problems to what you are having and was sharing some of that experience...my probs were all fuel related...wrong pim settings and bad maps from reputable people who thought that is what i should be running.

just so ya know...you can blow that motor from running rich...there was a thread a while back where there was a string of cars blowing motors because the fuel pumping out of the 1300s was not ionizing properly...from what i remember there were three cars that lost their motors from running too rich. ask any reputable tuner...ray at sr told me he has seen apex seals go at idle.

from your post I had gathered that you had not changed any of the tuning after you upgraded to larger injectors...you havent even put it on a wide band...correct? if you are running too rich throughout the power band your car will drive miserably...I know..Ive been there.

so do some research before attacking me...ok. I speak from experience...if you dont want answers from people then dont come to the forums...just cuz I didnt give you the answer you wanted to hear doesnt mean you should attack me.


what i presented was part of your problem...to think it is not, is simply foolish...put it on the wideband and you will see what i mean.

some of the problem could be vacuum or ignition related...but it sounds to me like part of it is air/fuel related as well.

next time someone is trying to be helpful dont be so ungrateful.

good luck at your race...with your attitude I hope you get the kind of help you deserve.




j

artguy

btw...I took offense to the comment that i should just stick to my drawing...that was completely out of line.

especially considering Ive done the research on my car myself...quite a bit of the work...and all of the tuning after giving up on the local pfc experts. A friend and I are in the process of tuning my car using the datalogit. Thanks to the great input around here (whether I wanted to hear it or not) I have my car running far better than what you have done with yours.

cheers

j

93 R1

If you are using the PMS computer then the problem is the injectors. The PMS cannot compensate for bigger injectors. I've heard that it might work if you upgrade in proportion to stock injector size though.

Therefore your 550-1300 combo won't work.

artguy

fuel/ecu related after all...

as i tried to point out earlier...ya cant just plug in larger injectors and expect to go go go...you not only need proper tuning..but ya need the proper equipment.

if what 93r1 says is true then you probably wont be making it to the races unless you can wrangle an ecu from someone...and tune it.

93r1 runs that ecu...Im sure he is familiar with it. ..I mean people running an ecu would be familiar with its perameters and restrictions right? call pfs..maybe they can answer your question.

looks like it's back to the drawing board...professor.




j

VTECthis

iTrader: (4)

You probably shouldnt run the PMS with a single turbo anyhow, its too vague in the tuning, the PMS has to fight the stock ecu, not to mention that it has to modify the signals and send them back. Its just plain not a good idea. There is a reason alot of people with single turbos go to a standalone computer. It works. Many people, including the famous Adam S. fought with the PMS for years because it was the best solution for the times, but now the PMS is outdated. Its resolution is not nearly that of a haltech, it has trouble controlling larger injectors, and they have tons of other problems.
Anyhow, if you still insist on using that ECU, you should consider they way that Adam S. set up his car, he was using an HKS AIC with additional large injectors, leaving the stock injectors in, i believe. He just got to the point where he had like 4 computers to tune constantly, and its just a pain. My advice, to avoid further hassles, go with a haltech or tec 3. they have been proven, and ive seen many cars run very well on them.
As for other suggestions:
-are the solenoids still in the car? you need them.
-did you switch the PMS to support a single turbo?
-are you sure your base timing is correct?
-are your injectors not seated right? might be leaking fuel
Just remember there are 3 things you need for a motor to run assuming you have compression: Air, Fuel, Spark, make sure these are right, and youll have an idle. By the way, Art guy is right, you need to tune with a Wideband O2 sensor. I would street tune it in fourth gear first, i believe loads are different on dynos, then after you have it basically right, dyno tune it, just start off rich, and lean out slowly until you hit desired A/F ratio, which i cannot let you in on.
Rob
93 RX
Turbonetics T-72 BB powered.

turbostreetfighter

second that!!!! but do not expect your engine to last if you dyno tune it. rule of thumb on dyno's =run your a/f 1/2 a point richer or you will blow it on the track. unless of course you use an eddie current load dyno (mustang) the dyno jets do not load anywhere near reality. your best bet is to tune rich in third gear and then do some fourth gear datalogging and adjust as needed, but of course you will need a standalone ECU to do this. if you only have 5 days to prepare for a race on a new car/setup you had better wait until the next event


MWW

patience young grasshopper!!

Mr rx-7 tt

iTrader: (5)

"If you are using the PMS computer then the problem is the injectors. The PMS cannot compensate for bigger injectors. I've heard that it might work if you upgrade in proportion to stock injector size though.

Therefore your 550-1300 combo won't work."

Ding, Ding, Ding..We have a winner. THE EFI PMS WILL NOT WORK WITH LARGER INJECTORS....
Call PFS and ask if you don't believe any of us....

Turboanka

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the input. I think I wasn't specific enough in my original post. The problem I was looking to rectify at this point, is an overly rich idle and stalling problem. I was just hoping for some input to get past these problems, and was just curious of other members' experiences. I am now starting the process of tuning with an exhaust gas analyzer (which does have wideband response) and on the dyno.
Anyway, you guys gave me a few things to consider - maybe going back to 850cc sec. until a new ECU is in place.
As for the track day, a little positive thinking never hurt anyone!

Anka

artguy

you go back and you will run lean for sure....you would have to drive around on 5lbs of boost or less just to be sure you didnt blow it up.

no way those stockers are gonna push out fuel for a single.

you need to get an aic AND you need to get it on a decent wideband...preferrably one that hooks up thru a bung in the DP.


good luck

SPOautos

Well acutally I think with the PMS as long as the pri and sec injectors are the same distance apart (% wise) as the oem then they will work ok. In other words

stock pri is 550 and the 850 are about 55% larger than pri

If you upgrade your secondary to 1300 now your 237% larger than your primary instead of just 55% so what you need to do is upgrade your pri to 850's which will put you back real close to the original oem 55%

Hope that helps, I dont have a PMS and have never done this but I've read about it from different sources

STEPHEN

Cheuk in Seoul

Actually, I did get have my setup working with a single turbo, 1300 cc secondaries and PMS purple. Worked great at WOT but I kept killing plugs (rich) and part throttle kind of sucked. This was with many many dyno runs with a wideband.

Switched to Haltech... runs great now

93 R1

Thats exactly what I said above

Dragon

Get a Power FC, Datalogit and a laptop and all your problems will disapear... The PMS is a crappy piggy back ECU that won't do **** for you with the amount of tunning parts your car has....