question about 1680cc injectors.
03-03-09, 07:33 PM
#27
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Differential fuel pressure is what matters, this is why cars have fuel pressure regulators... As the pressure in the intake manifold increases, rail pressure needs to increase to maintain the same differential pressure and fuel flow. As far as "locking up" at higher pressures is most likely due to the fact that you are probably running the same peak and hold amperage. The current needs to increase in order to overcome the extra pressure against the pintle. Probably the reason these low impedence injectors like the delphi (which is not pintle, a disk and has a larger surface area so will see higher overall force holding it closed...) as mentioned will close at higher pressure compared to the slightly higher resistance bosch 1600 (and smaller surface area pintle). Most new saturated injectors however will maintain high pressure capabality as the injector current does not need to change to open the ball/disk/pintle. I believe Bosch rates EV6 injectors up to 5 bar (72.5psi) and the new EV14 up to 8 bar (116psi)! And that is differential pressure, not only fuel rail pressure. We have tested some EV6's up to 140psi and they run fine, while others need more voltage to maintain over 5 bar.
Just wanted to also add that the higher the differential pressure, the better the atomization of the injector and will allow for better combustion, slightly increasing power and efficiency..
Just wanted to also add that the higher the differential pressure, the better the atomization of the injector and will allow for better combustion, slightly increasing power and efficiency..
03-03-09, 07:45 PM
#28
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Differential fuel pressure is what matters, this is why cars have fuel pressure regulators... As the pressure in the intake manifold increases, rail pressure needs to increase to maintain the same differential pressure and fuel flow. As far as "locking up" at higher pressures is most likely due to the fact that you are probably running the same peak and hold amperage. The current needs to increase in order to overcome the extra pressure against the pintle. Probably the reason these low impedence injectors like the delphi (which is not pintle, a disk and has a larger surface area so will see higher overall force holding it closed...) as mentioned will close at higher pressure compared to the slightly higher resistance bosch 1600 (and smaller surface area pintle). Most new saturated injectors however will maintain high pressure capabality as the injector current does not need to change to open the ball/disk/pintle. I believe Bosch rates EV6 injectors up to 5 bar (72.5psi) and the new EV14 up to 8 bar (116psi)! And that is differential pressure, not only fuel rail pressure. We have tested some EV6's up to 140psi and they run fine, while others need more voltage to maintain over 5 bar.
Just wanted to also add that the higher the differential pressure, the better the atomization of the injector and will allow for better combustion, slightly increasing power and efficiency..
Just wanted to also add that the higher the differential pressure, the better the atomization of the injector and will allow for better combustion, slightly increasing power and efficiency..
Thanks for the clarification on that, it obviously has a lot to do with what injector you're running.
03-04-09, 09:10 AM
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We have been doing a lot of testing with the above posted injectors... not sure what to make of them quite yet. They seem to run fine in the bench, but a few cars have been reporting problems and Moran is now claiming they only work properly with BigStuff ECU's... wtf?
03-04-09, 12:59 PM
#33
They need a lot of current!
03-04-09, 01:03 PM
#34
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So I need an opinion guys. If i use 4 1680cc bosch injectors, and 4 1000cc high impendance injectors at 100psi base pressure, would it be enough to achieve 1000 flywheel HP on E85?
03-04-09, 02:28 PM
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03-05-09, 03:58 PM
#36
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Here is a great article to help understand fuel injectors... http://www.injectordynamics.com/dyna...erization.html
03-07-09, 12:29 PM
#37
What injector brand is recommended and why. I have been trying to get info on yawpower injetors as well as pricing for a few weeks and nothing from them. I am looking to run the FJO injector driver with peak and hold injectors. I also am running a power fc. The fuel rail kit I have is a CJ motorsports kit. So I will need bosch style injectors. I have a 3574 aspec turbo kit that I will be looking to get 400 + rwhp.
My thought is I need 750cc primary injectors and 1600cc injectors for this set up. I als want to have injectors to have room for upgrading to a large turbo and not wory about over driving the injectors.
Any good input would be great.
My thought is I need 750cc primary injectors and 1600cc injectors for this set up. I als want to have injectors to have room for upgrading to a large turbo and not wory about over driving the injectors.
Any good input would be great.
03-08-09, 01:22 PM
#38
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What injector brand is recommended and why. I have been trying to get info on yawpower injetors as well as pricing for a few weeks and nothing from them. I am looking to run the FJO injector driver with peak and hold injectors. I also am running a power fc. The fuel rail kit I have is a CJ motorsports kit. So I will need bosch style injectors. I have a 3574 aspec turbo kit that I will be looking to get 400 + rwhp.
My thought is I need 750cc primary injectors and 1600cc injectors for this set up. I als want to have injectors to have room for upgrading to a large turbo and not wory about over driving the injectors.
Any good input would be great.
My thought is I need 750cc primary injectors and 1600cc injectors for this set up. I als want to have injectors to have room for upgrading to a large turbo and not wory about over driving the injectors.
Any good input would be great.
The Yaw Power injectors are now being branded as ID or injectordynamics injectors. They are matched based on flow AND dead time, and I think if you take a look at the above article you will understand why this is so important. ID is the only ones matching injectors like this and the results have been amazing. Customers have been reporting much better driveability, AFR consistency, and efficiency. The injectors are being sold through T1raceparts.com at the price of $115 each with adapters and electrical connectors.
My only concern is running an injector so much larger than stock primaries on the Power FC. I am not sure if the Power FC will be able to take out enough fuel as I believe it has a minimum pulsewidth, unless dead times are skewed to get them to flow less as people have been doing to get the 850's to work in the primaries. So idle and low rpm cruise could end up being quite rich if this issue is not resolved.
03-08-09, 01:32 PM
#39
Sorry, I didn't see any inquiries about them...
The Yaw Power injectors are now being branded as ID or injectordynamics injectors. They are matched based on flow AND dead time, and I think if you take a look at the above article you will understand why this is so important. ID is the only ones matching injectors like this and the results have been amazing. Customers have been reporting much better driveability, AFR consistency, and efficiency. The injectors are being sold through T1raceparts.com at the price of $115 each with adapters and electrical connectors.
My only concern is running an injector so much larger than stock primaries on the Power FC. I am not sure if the Power FC will be able to take out enough fuel as I believe it has a minimum pulsewidth, unless dead times are skewed to get them to flow less as people have been doing to get the 850's to work in the primaries. So idle and low rpm cruise could end up being quite rich if this issue is not resolved.
The Yaw Power injectors are now being branded as ID or injectordynamics injectors. They are matched based on flow AND dead time, and I think if you take a look at the above article you will understand why this is so important. ID is the only ones matching injectors like this and the results have been amazing. Customers have been reporting much better driveability, AFR consistency, and efficiency. The injectors are being sold through T1raceparts.com at the price of $115 each with adapters and electrical connectors.
My only concern is running an injector so much larger than stock primaries on the Power FC. I am not sure if the Power FC will be able to take out enough fuel as I believe it has a minimum pulsewidth, unless dead times are skewed to get them to flow less as people have been doing to get the 850's to work in the primaries. So idle and low rpm cruise could end up being quite rich if this issue is not resolved.
As far as the PFC not being able to cut back on large injectors I have also heard of the problem that you are talking about as well as guys saying they have not problems. This is the main reason why I am looking to also convert to a peak and hold injector with the FJo driver. If I am not mistaken this will help with this problem as well as help with injector timing set up.
Please correct me if I am wrong or have a misunderstanding of all this.
03-08-09, 08:22 PM
#41
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Where are you looking for peak and hold injectors? We don't have any for sale.. There is a quick description of the difference b/w peak and hold and saturated injectors on the ID website under the "questions answered" link.
I am not sure on how the FJO driving P&H injectors would allow for more control over injection timing or resolving the minimum pulsewidth issue... ?
I am not sure on how the FJO driving P&H injectors would allow for more control over injection timing or resolving the minimum pulsewidth issue... ?
03-08-09, 09:50 PM
#43
Where are you looking for peak and hold injectors? We don't have any for sale.. There is a quick description of the difference b/w peak and hold and saturated injectors on the ID website under the "questions answered" link.
I am not sure on how the FJO driving P&H injectors would allow for more control over injection timing or resolving the minimum pulsewidth issue... ?
I am not sure on how the FJO driving P&H injectors would allow for more control over injection timing or resolving the minimum pulsewidth issue... ?
What are your thoughts?
03-08-09, 10:18 PM
#44
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It seems to me like the min. pulsewidth is a separate issue with the PFC as no matter if its a p&h or sat, it will still not be able to lower the pulsewidth enough to run a leaner idle and low rpm cruise. If dead times ("lag" times in PFC lingo) are skewed to get the injectors to flow less, many other issues will arise as this offsets the expected flow rates of the injectors as the ECU sees it, and compensations can become very inaccurate (ECU thinks its increasing fuel by 3% due to colder (denser) air, but could actually be quite different and AFR's are not exactly where you want them to be) I'm not sure what's the best way to account for this fact other than to run smaller injectors on the primaries. We also have ID 725's which would be small enough, and have minimal recovery times allowing for higher duty cycle capabilities than most injectors in that flow range..
03-15-09, 04:42 PM
#45
Have you done any more testing with these injectors? How is the flow as the lower openings (they claim 1.5 ms)? I asked Moran about the peak and hold ecu requirements and this was their response.
There is no issue running my injectors with standard P&H drivers; this is what they were designed for, 4 amp peak and 1 amp hold.
My injectors are compatible with ALL aftermarket control units; I haven’t found an EFI unit they don’t work with, including Caltech.
If you have any more questions, please feel free to contact me and I’ll be happy to assist you and address any concerns you may have.
Thank you,
Mike Moran
Moran Motorsports, Inc.
12601 Universal Dr.
Taylor, MI 48180
(734) 947-1234 Office
(734) 946-0043 Fax
www.moranmotorsports.com
mike@moranmotorsports.com
03-15-09, 11:28 PM
#46
My only concern is running an injector so much larger than stock primaries on the Power FC. I am not sure if the Power FC will be able to take out enough fuel as I believe it has a minimum pulsewidth, unless dead times are skewed to get them to flow less as people have been doing to get the 850's to work in the primaries. So idle and low rpm cruise could end up being quite rich if this issue is not resolved.
-J
03-16-09, 10:42 PM
#47
Ahh, I understand where you are coming from now... Well, if you are going to run Peak and Hold (P&H) injectors with a PFC, it definitely makes sense to use an injector driver as a resistor will slow down the injector and also make it much more inconsistent as voltage lowers. A saturated injector is probably the best thing to use on the PFC as that is what it is designed to run (can more easily enter correct dead times and more accurate fueling), but obviously run into the problem of finding large enough injectors that are saturated (until the ID 1000's...). The "questions answered" link on injectordynamics.com explains this sat. vs. p&h issue much better though.
It seems to me like the min. pulsewidth is a separate issue with the PFC as no matter if its a p&h or sat, it will still not be able to lower the pulsewidth enough to run a leaner idle and low rpm cruise. If dead times ("lag" times in PFC lingo) are skewed to get the injectors to flow less, many other issues will arise as this offsets the expected flow rates of the injectors as the ECU sees it, and compensations can become very inaccurate (ECU thinks its increasing fuel by 3% due to colder (denser) air, but could actually be quite different and AFR's are not exactly where you want them to be) I'm not sure what's the best way to account for this fact other than to run smaller injectors on the primaries. We also have ID 725's which would be small enough, and have minimal recovery times allowing for higher duty cycle capabilities than most injectors in that flow range..
It seems to me like the min. pulsewidth is a separate issue with the PFC as no matter if its a p&h or sat, it will still not be able to lower the pulsewidth enough to run a leaner idle and low rpm cruise. If dead times ("lag" times in PFC lingo) are skewed to get the injectors to flow less, many other issues will arise as this offsets the expected flow rates of the injectors as the ECU sees it, and compensations can become very inaccurate (ECU thinks its increasing fuel by 3% due to colder (denser) air, but could actually be quite different and AFR's are not exactly where you want them to be) I'm not sure what's the best way to account for this fact other than to run smaller injectors on the primaries. We also have ID 725's which would be small enough, and have minimal recovery times allowing for higher duty cycle capabilities than most injectors in that flow range..
My understanding was that with the PFC and the injector driver from FJO people are able to control injector timing much beter then the old way of adding in resistors in line to the injector. I also thought this allowed for better AFRs witch allows for better tuning.
Howard Coleman has a major post on this as well.
This is what I thought people were doing and are able to tune the car much better thourght out the power band.
03-16-09, 11:02 PM
#48
looking at RC injectors and see that they have a 1600 cc injector (Peak & Hold Injector PB2-1600) and 750 cc injectors (Peak & Hold Injector PL4-0750 (Bosch style top)).
Of course I need to make sure that both are Bosch style for the CJ fuel rail kit I have. What are the thoughts on this injectors? also will I be ok with the sizing for 400+ wrhp with the set I will be running.
Any tuners for PFC have better thougts or ideas?
Of course I need to make sure that both are Bosch style for the CJ fuel rail kit I have. What are the thoughts on this injectors? also will I be ok with the sizing for 400+ wrhp with the set I will be running.
Any tuners for PFC have better thougts or ideas?
03-20-09, 10:20 AM
#49
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Negative lag is how many people have been tuning their PFC's with large injectors but is SOOO wrong... You may be tricking the ECU to flow less at idle/cruise, but is also tricking the ECU everywhere and corrections will never be correct... And not just corrections that a tuner makes when tuning, but when the ECU tries to add/subtract fuel to account for any variables.
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