Precision Turbo 2015
12-18-14, 11:49 AM
#1
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Precision Turbo 2015
i am a proponent of many of the Borg Warner turbos as they are often a better fit for our rotary motors due to their larger hotsides V primarily Garrett.
for instance:
GT3582r cold side area 6.386 sq inches, hot side 5.171 hot to cold ratio 80.9%
Borg Warner S300 62 cold side 6.435, hot side 6.31 hot to cold ratio 98%
the S300 hot wheel is 22% larger than the GT35 resulting in less back pressure (intake pollution) and EGT.
this is important as the rotary needs to flow 30% more air than a piston engine to make similar power...
more (necessary) intake flow =s more exhaust flow.
if you have questions re the above do check out my stickied thread in this section: "Turbo Comparisons"
as the Borg Warner fit continues to be a developing story w the EFR and SXE line, Precision has caught my attention. there are a few board members that have done some amazing things w them...
for instance SMG944/Steve has made over 700 rw SAE hp at 40 psi/racegas w a PT6766! he made 602 at 27 psi on racegas w meth AI!
others on the board have posted impressive numbers as well and they are invited to chime in.
i never looked too carefully at Precision as they did not offer compressor maps.
both Garrett (now owned by Honeywell) and Borg Warner are Global size enterprises and i can assure you are OE driven. their size both allows and requires them to create product in a different manner than Precision, a 1987 start-up company. anything BW or Garrett does in the motorsports world is expected to most primarily impact their OE product down the road. we are their test bench. if you look at the turbo section in Borg Warner's corporate you will see mention of the Titanium-Aluminide turbo wheel as a future OE product. we currently are doing the testing for BW.
Precision Turbo has always been, necessarily, race focused, initially working w, i believe, Garrett product. fortunes went well for the company over the 27 years and they eventually started making more of their own design/manufacture product... all 100% race driven.
for instance, billet compressor wheels.
it appears, given SMG944/Steve's results, they have something special.
enter PRI 2014
Precision was on my hit list.
the company had quite a presence along w one of their sponsored racecars.
the car is both an attention getter to those who like to look at the details as well as a killer on track. it runs in the very popular Pro Mod class and was judged the best engineered (of 33) in class at the NHRA Nats 2014. it also sported the lowest E T of the 33 on sat. two 88 mm Precision turbos propel 2650 pounds to an E T in the fives around 250 mph. another Precision powered Pro Mod recently set an E T record of 5.461 at 270. combine this w the "world's fastest wheel driven piston powered vehicle" (looks more like a horizontal rocket to me) 439 mph at Bonneville, tractor pulling, truck pulling, time attack, road racing, drifting, autocross, a five time Hot Rod Drag Week Unlimited Class winner (Larry Larson) and you start to get an idea of what powers the Precision Turbo organization.
Winning.
not only were they center stage at the PRI but they brought along the newest product of their 27 year journey to excellence, the GEN2. Precision is now at the point where they are able to offer a 100% Precision engineered and manufactured turbo.
Game On.
the GEN2 is now offered in two sizes that fit our motors, 62 and 64.
rated at 800 and 900 PISTON which is 615 and 700 ROTARY.
probably 80 and 90 pounds per minute as a guess.
the smaller of the two is:
PN PTB515-6266B
cold
62.23 inducer
86.61 exducer average cold area 6.91 52 Trim
hot
66 inducer
74.17 exducer average hot area 6 79 Trim
hot to cold ratio 87%
the larger
PN PTB505-6466
cold
64.39 inducer
86.61 exducer average cold side area 7.07 56 Trim
hot
66 inducer
74.17 exducer average hot area 6 79 Trim
hot to cold ratio 85%
as you can see the two GEN2 turbos are pretty similar having the same hotside wheel and only the inducer is diff on the cold side. the hot wheel is also on the non GEN2 6766. i believe this is the hotside on SMG944s turbo. it is smaller than the BW turbo but of course size is but one of the parameters. i believe i recall dual ceramic bearings and stainless steel hotsides available.
which gets us to the PLAN.
Precision Turbo is located in Hebron, Indiana a four hour hop. (Chicago is in the middle)
can you say Road Trip?
i spoke w numerous PT guys at the PRI and they were interested in evaluating the GEN2 on a rotary.
immediately after the champagne wears off from New Years i plan to head down to Hebron.
to be continued.
Howard
for instance:
GT3582r cold side area 6.386 sq inches, hot side 5.171 hot to cold ratio 80.9%
Borg Warner S300 62 cold side 6.435, hot side 6.31 hot to cold ratio 98%
the S300 hot wheel is 22% larger than the GT35 resulting in less back pressure (intake pollution) and EGT.
this is important as the rotary needs to flow 30% more air than a piston engine to make similar power...
more (necessary) intake flow =s more exhaust flow.
if you have questions re the above do check out my stickied thread in this section: "Turbo Comparisons"
as the Borg Warner fit continues to be a developing story w the EFR and SXE line, Precision has caught my attention. there are a few board members that have done some amazing things w them...
for instance SMG944/Steve has made over 700 rw SAE hp at 40 psi/racegas w a PT6766! he made 602 at 27 psi on racegas w meth AI!
others on the board have posted impressive numbers as well and they are invited to chime in.
i never looked too carefully at Precision as they did not offer compressor maps.
both Garrett (now owned by Honeywell) and Borg Warner are Global size enterprises and i can assure you are OE driven. their size both allows and requires them to create product in a different manner than Precision, a 1987 start-up company. anything BW or Garrett does in the motorsports world is expected to most primarily impact their OE product down the road. we are their test bench. if you look at the turbo section in Borg Warner's corporate you will see mention of the Titanium-Aluminide turbo wheel as a future OE product. we currently are doing the testing for BW.
Precision Turbo has always been, necessarily, race focused, initially working w, i believe, Garrett product. fortunes went well for the company over the 27 years and they eventually started making more of their own design/manufacture product... all 100% race driven.
for instance, billet compressor wheels.
it appears, given SMG944/Steve's results, they have something special.
enter PRI 2014
Precision was on my hit list.
the company had quite a presence along w one of their sponsored racecars.
the car is both an attention getter to those who like to look at the details as well as a killer on track. it runs in the very popular Pro Mod class and was judged the best engineered (of 33) in class at the NHRA Nats 2014. it also sported the lowest E T of the 33 on sat. two 88 mm Precision turbos propel 2650 pounds to an E T in the fives around 250 mph. another Precision powered Pro Mod recently set an E T record of 5.461 at 270. combine this w the "world's fastest wheel driven piston powered vehicle" (looks more like a horizontal rocket to me) 439 mph at Bonneville, tractor pulling, truck pulling, time attack, road racing, drifting, autocross, a five time Hot Rod Drag Week Unlimited Class winner (Larry Larson) and you start to get an idea of what powers the Precision Turbo organization.
Winning.
not only were they center stage at the PRI but they brought along the newest product of their 27 year journey to excellence, the GEN2. Precision is now at the point where they are able to offer a 100% Precision engineered and manufactured turbo.
Game On.
the GEN2 is now offered in two sizes that fit our motors, 62 and 64.
rated at 800 and 900 PISTON which is 615 and 700 ROTARY.
probably 80 and 90 pounds per minute as a guess.
the smaller of the two is:
PN PTB515-6266B
cold
62.23 inducer
86.61 exducer average cold area 6.91 52 Trim
hot
66 inducer
74.17 exducer average hot area 6 79 Trim
hot to cold ratio 87%
the larger
PN PTB505-6466
cold
64.39 inducer
86.61 exducer average cold side area 7.07 56 Trim
hot
66 inducer
74.17 exducer average hot area 6 79 Trim
hot to cold ratio 85%
as you can see the two GEN2 turbos are pretty similar having the same hotside wheel and only the inducer is diff on the cold side. the hot wheel is also on the non GEN2 6766. i believe this is the hotside on SMG944s turbo. it is smaller than the BW turbo but of course size is but one of the parameters. i believe i recall dual ceramic bearings and stainless steel hotsides available.
which gets us to the PLAN.
Precision Turbo is located in Hebron, Indiana a four hour hop. (Chicago is in the middle)
can you say Road Trip?
i spoke w numerous PT guys at the PRI and they were interested in evaluating the GEN2 on a rotary.
immediately after the champagne wears off from New Years i plan to head down to Hebron.
to be continued.
Howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 12-21-14 at 08:02 AM.
12-18-14, 12:13 PM
#2
Old [Sch|F]ool
Tell us what you think! 
My experience with Precisions is with certain American engines with six cylinders... and if you subtract 27 from 2014 to see what was HOT when they started, and then look at what the majority of their product line is geared for, you can probably guess
The most interesting turbo ride I ever experienced had a 71mm on a 245ci engine. There was no lag at all. Dipping into the accelerator was insta-boost, but the hotstide was still plenty large enough to flow ~1000 crank HP worth of exhaust gases. That was pretty much the only car I ever tuned where the power response caused uncontrollable giggling due to brain lockup. Normally you get a little warning when the power is going to come in.
My experience with Precisions is with certain American engines with six cylinders... and if you subtract 27 from 2014 to see what was HOT when they started, and then look at what the majority of their product line is geared for, you can probably guess
The most interesting turbo ride I ever experienced had a 71mm on a 245ci engine. There was no lag at all. Dipping into the accelerator was insta-boost, but the hotstide was still plenty large enough to flow ~1000 crank HP worth of exhaust gases. That was pretty much the only car I ever tuned where the power response caused uncontrollable giggling due to brain lockup. Normally you get a little warning when the power is going to come in.
12-18-14, 03:16 PM
#5
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
The Gen 2 compressor wheel has been around since earlier in the year..... I have one of the 6466 beauties on my FD right now
Engine has about 1000 miles on it, plan is to get the car tuned by Mr. John Renna early next year once the roads are clear of snow, be interesting to see what this turbo does at 1 bar and 1.5 bar
Engine has about 1000 miles on it, plan is to get the car tuned by Mr. John Renna early next year once the roads are clear of snow, be interesting to see what this turbo does at 1 bar and 1.5 bar
12-30-14, 12:21 PM
#7
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
"So does this mean you're already bailing on testing the EFR9180..."
given the fact i didn't get off the ground on the prior multiple turbo project i can understand you sarcasm.
my car will be at Beyond Redline thursday and after doing some general setup (axles, scattershield etc) will test my EFR 9180.
after the EFR, i will run a Precision Turbo CEA GEN2 6466.
best turbo will be on the car in Texas March 27.
howard
given the fact i didn't get off the ground on the prior multiple turbo project i can understand you sarcasm.
my car will be at Beyond Redline thursday and after doing some general setup (axles, scattershield etc) will test my EFR 9180.
after the EFR, i will run a Precision Turbo CEA GEN2 6466.
best turbo will be on the car in Texas March 27.
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 06-24-15 at 01:34 PM. Reason: testing
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01-15-15, 01:32 PM
#8
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
i spent much of yesterday with Dan Barlog, Engineering Director at Precision Turbo in Hebron, Indiana. Aaron Hoyt, Sales Rep for the East Coast, was kind enough to put the day together and added lots of additional info.
Dan has been w Precision for over 15 years and is responsible for the design and execution of the company's product.
as previously mentioned, i had never really looked at Precision's turbos as they didn't have compressor maps and i thought they were just warmed over Garretts. given the company was a startup 27 years ago that was probably a partially accurate assessment initially.
the lightbulb illuminated for me at the PRI as i examined the CEA/GEN2 technology and asked Aaron the money question:
are your CEA GEN2 turbos totally engineered and built by you?
"yes."
given my profession of 37 years as financial analyst/investment broker, i greatly appreciate the potential positive leverage of a startup company headed on the proper path. leverage not only in creating shareholder value but leverage in terms of creating unique product.
Precision competes against Garrett, which is now owned by Honeywell, and Borg Warner.
9/30/2014 quarterly revs
HON 10.1 Billion $
BWA 2.0 Billion $
all 3 companies are SERIOUSLY interested in turbos. two companies of the 3 are interested in turbos for the OE market.
2 of the 3 use racing/motorsports as a means of funding R&D for future OE products.
one of the 3 uses racing/motorsports as the FINAL OBJECTIVE.
one of the three companies has limited resources and can fail if it doesn't WIN.
none of this is meant to be a negative w re to BW or Garrett but rather to set a context for my visit.
i was hoping to see a highly efficient, highly design-oriented, highly motivated and fast moving entrepreneurial company focused on WINNING ontrack.
that's what i found.
PT is a succession of buildings, each larger and more modern tucked away in a small Indiana town running two shifts and adding additional robotics to replace the workers they can't find for a third shift.
the facilities are hospital clean, highly organised and ultra modern down to geothermal heating. Dan, Aaron and i toured the facilities and at each stop Dan picked up a component and explained how it differed from both BW and Garrett but also from previous PT designs. literally every component is scratch designed and built by PT.
i will say that a bit of it passed over my head and of course it is possible that some of what i heard was fluff or possibly inconsequential but for most of the subject matter i did get and liked what i heard.
i could quickly see that my initial going in hopes seemed to be being realized.
PT offers two turbo lines....
MFS (Machined From Solid) "entry level"
CEA (Competition Engineered Aerodynamics) with the latest iteration of CEA being GEN2
at the entry level i found it interesting that the company is pretty much not doing much w cast comp wheels as at this point it is either as cheap or cheaper to make billet comp wheels which deliver advantages V cast.
the CEA comp wheels are an entirely different breed.
the wheels are made from a "closed die" and as such the grain of the material better aligns w the shape of the vanes. as such the vanes can be made thinner and w a significantly more efficient profile...
more expensive
more efficient
more power
the CEA comp wheel has less hub area so it has more working area at a given inducer diameter. this is primarily, as i understand, due to the material being stronger because of the way it is formed. the more stout structure allows for a better aero configuration but also requires significantly more production cycle time/cost.
Dan showed me a competitor's wheel and a PT MFS wheel and they both are made similarly. the CEA wheel was markedly different.
bearings were worth 30 minutes of discussion... larger, ceramic, of a different material than most... living at 8 bar of boost! there was as much emphasis on the cage as the bearing itself as well as the lubrication delivery design. (Patent here)
next to the compressors were a bunch of shiny beautifully machined items i didn't initially recognise. Dan pulled one out and i realised it was the PT version of the stamped steel bucket (i am sure there is a better name for it) that fits around the turbine wheel. the reason i didn't recognise it was it was a machined piece... something about the stamped pieces getting hot and bulging...
Quality Control occupies a great deal of floor space and seems nailed down from every aspect. each hotside wheel is optically inspected and numbered. if PT needs to know the specifics on an individual wheel they can call up the dimensions to 5 decimal places.
of course the big question is how does all this net out.
PT keeps score by customer wins...
from mega dollar diesel stuff at the highest levels where the boost and power levels are crazy to the hottest class in drag racing, Pro Mod, to areas where we would be more conversant PT is well represented on the podiums.
after i finish w my BW EFR 9180 i will be planning to see for myself.
turbos in the PT lineup that interest me and might interest you:
GEN2 6266SP
800 hp piston (615 rotary)
comp 62.23 X 86.61
this is the NEW 62 CEA wheel and it has interesting aspects...
while the inducer (62.23) size is very close to the GT35, S300 62 the exducer is a large 86.61. the GT35 and GTX35 have smaller exducers at 82. the S300 is 83, the S300 FMW is 83.4 as is the S300 SXE 62.
the compressor has a 6.91 average area V around 6.3-6.5 for the others. further, w the GEN2 construction the hub is significantly smaller yielding more working (vane) area. if we use PT's power number we conclude that this is an 80 pound per minute wheel!
the 62.2/86.6 relationship yields a favorable for spool Tirm of 52 V the GT35 at 57 Trim.
hot 66.0 X 74.17
i could see lots of excitement coming my way when Dan discussed the CEA turbine wheel. while it is made in inconel, PT experimented w something similar to BW's titanium aluminide. hats off the BW for coming up w it and making it work. PT found they couldn't cast it properly unless they made configuration concessions and they picked flow over weight loss.
as in all GEN2s a very impressive PT engineered ceramic ball bearing assembly gets it done. lots of thermal engineering as to heat flow paths on the CHRA which is clean sheet of paper design.
retail $1780 w a divided T4 1.0
GEN2 6466
900 hp (692 rotary)
comp 64.39 X 86.61 turbo differs only at the exducer V the 6266...
7.11 average compressor area Trim is 55.
same hotside
retail $1995 w a 1.0 divided T4
GEN2 6870
1100 hp (846 rotary)
comp 68.02 X 92.46
8.01 average compressor area 54 Trim
retail price is $2430.
my GT4094r has a 8.175 sq inch compressor and will make 800 piston 615 rotary. if in fact the GEN2 6870 produces as advertised, PT and Dan Barlog have something special.
i will shortly evaluate my new generation BW EFR 9180 which has a 7.97 sq inch compressor.
there are of course many other factors re compressors than average area but the metric gets us in the neighborhood. so i will explore the neighborhood.
job one for me is the March 27 Texas Mile and the 9180 will be evaluated first. a GEN2 6466 will be next up.
to some on the board PT isn't news.
to the other 95%, i see an interesting 2015 story developing.
howard
Dan has been w Precision for over 15 years and is responsible for the design and execution of the company's product.
as previously mentioned, i had never really looked at Precision's turbos as they didn't have compressor maps and i thought they were just warmed over Garretts. given the company was a startup 27 years ago that was probably a partially accurate assessment initially.
the lightbulb illuminated for me at the PRI as i examined the CEA/GEN2 technology and asked Aaron the money question:
are your CEA GEN2 turbos totally engineered and built by you?
"yes."
given my profession of 37 years as financial analyst/investment broker, i greatly appreciate the potential positive leverage of a startup company headed on the proper path. leverage not only in creating shareholder value but leverage in terms of creating unique product.
Precision competes against Garrett, which is now owned by Honeywell, and Borg Warner.
9/30/2014 quarterly revs
HON 10.1 Billion $
BWA 2.0 Billion $
all 3 companies are SERIOUSLY interested in turbos. two companies of the 3 are interested in turbos for the OE market.
2 of the 3 use racing/motorsports as a means of funding R&D for future OE products.
one of the 3 uses racing/motorsports as the FINAL OBJECTIVE.
one of the three companies has limited resources and can fail if it doesn't WIN.
none of this is meant to be a negative w re to BW or Garrett but rather to set a context for my visit.
i was hoping to see a highly efficient, highly design-oriented, highly motivated and fast moving entrepreneurial company focused on WINNING ontrack.
that's what i found.
PT is a succession of buildings, each larger and more modern tucked away in a small Indiana town running two shifts and adding additional robotics to replace the workers they can't find for a third shift.
the facilities are hospital clean, highly organised and ultra modern down to geothermal heating. Dan, Aaron and i toured the facilities and at each stop Dan picked up a component and explained how it differed from both BW and Garrett but also from previous PT designs. literally every component is scratch designed and built by PT.
i will say that a bit of it passed over my head and of course it is possible that some of what i heard was fluff or possibly inconsequential but for most of the subject matter i did get and liked what i heard.
i could quickly see that my initial going in hopes seemed to be being realized.
PT offers two turbo lines....
MFS (Machined From Solid) "entry level"
CEA (Competition Engineered Aerodynamics) with the latest iteration of CEA being GEN2
at the entry level i found it interesting that the company is pretty much not doing much w cast comp wheels as at this point it is either as cheap or cheaper to make billet comp wheels which deliver advantages V cast.
the CEA comp wheels are an entirely different breed.
the wheels are made from a "closed die" and as such the grain of the material better aligns w the shape of the vanes. as such the vanes can be made thinner and w a significantly more efficient profile...
more expensive
more efficient
more power
the CEA comp wheel has less hub area so it has more working area at a given inducer diameter. this is primarily, as i understand, due to the material being stronger because of the way it is formed. the more stout structure allows for a better aero configuration but also requires significantly more production cycle time/cost.
Dan showed me a competitor's wheel and a PT MFS wheel and they both are made similarly. the CEA wheel was markedly different.
bearings were worth 30 minutes of discussion... larger, ceramic, of a different material than most... living at 8 bar of boost! there was as much emphasis on the cage as the bearing itself as well as the lubrication delivery design. (Patent here)
next to the compressors were a bunch of shiny beautifully machined items i didn't initially recognise. Dan pulled one out and i realised it was the PT version of the stamped steel bucket (i am sure there is a better name for it) that fits around the turbine wheel. the reason i didn't recognise it was it was a machined piece... something about the stamped pieces getting hot and bulging...
Quality Control occupies a great deal of floor space and seems nailed down from every aspect. each hotside wheel is optically inspected and numbered. if PT needs to know the specifics on an individual wheel they can call up the dimensions to 5 decimal places.
of course the big question is how does all this net out.
PT keeps score by customer wins...
from mega dollar diesel stuff at the highest levels where the boost and power levels are crazy to the hottest class in drag racing, Pro Mod, to areas where we would be more conversant PT is well represented on the podiums.
after i finish w my BW EFR 9180 i will be planning to see for myself.
turbos in the PT lineup that interest me and might interest you:
GEN2 6266SP
800 hp piston (615 rotary)
comp 62.23 X 86.61
this is the NEW 62 CEA wheel and it has interesting aspects...
while the inducer (62.23) size is very close to the GT35, S300 62 the exducer is a large 86.61. the GT35 and GTX35 have smaller exducers at 82. the S300 is 83, the S300 FMW is 83.4 as is the S300 SXE 62.
the compressor has a 6.91 average area V around 6.3-6.5 for the others. further, w the GEN2 construction the hub is significantly smaller yielding more working (vane) area. if we use PT's power number we conclude that this is an 80 pound per minute wheel!
the 62.2/86.6 relationship yields a favorable for spool Tirm of 52 V the GT35 at 57 Trim.
hot 66.0 X 74.17
i could see lots of excitement coming my way when Dan discussed the CEA turbine wheel. while it is made in inconel, PT experimented w something similar to BW's titanium aluminide. hats off the BW for coming up w it and making it work. PT found they couldn't cast it properly unless they made configuration concessions and they picked flow over weight loss.
as in all GEN2s a very impressive PT engineered ceramic ball bearing assembly gets it done. lots of thermal engineering as to heat flow paths on the CHRA which is clean sheet of paper design.
retail $1780 w a divided T4 1.0
GEN2 6466
900 hp (692 rotary)
comp 64.39 X 86.61 turbo differs only at the exducer V the 6266...
7.11 average compressor area Trim is 55.
same hotside
retail $1995 w a 1.0 divided T4
GEN2 6870
1100 hp (846 rotary)
comp 68.02 X 92.46
8.01 average compressor area 54 Trim
retail price is $2430.
my GT4094r has a 8.175 sq inch compressor and will make 800 piston 615 rotary. if in fact the GEN2 6870 produces as advertised, PT and Dan Barlog have something special.
i will shortly evaluate my new generation BW EFR 9180 which has a 7.97 sq inch compressor.
there are of course many other factors re compressors than average area but the metric gets us in the neighborhood. so i will explore the neighborhood.
job one for me is the March 27 Texas Mile and the 9180 will be evaluated first. a GEN2 6466 will be next up.
to some on the board PT isn't news.
to the other 95%, i see an interesting 2015 story developing.
howard
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