Post Your Single Turbo Dyno Sheet...
07-05-02, 01:31 AM
#76
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Forcefed7 -
Either you are running a 3 rotor engine, or you are running a large shot of nitrous. Don't play this forum to be idiots.
First of all, your car makes peak tq around ~5800 rpm. This indicates that you have a very lightly ported motor, especially considering the large flow of your turbine section. Second of all you are making 500 rwtq ON JUST A TURBO?
Your car is making 476rwtq @ 11psi on a 13b motor?
I suggest you tell us a little bit more about your "setup", before you get really torn up
.
I'm not trying to be an *******, but studying a dyno graph can tell alot about someone's car.
Either you are running a 3 rotor engine, or you are running a large shot of nitrous. Don't play this forum to be idiots.
First of all, your car makes peak tq around ~5800 rpm. This indicates that you have a very lightly ported motor, especially considering the large flow of your turbine section. Second of all you are making 500 rwtq ON JUST A TURBO?
Your car is making 476rwtq @ 11psi on a 13b motor? I suggest you tell us a little bit more about your "setup", before you get really torn up
.I'm not trying to be an *******, but studying a dyno graph can tell alot about someone's car.
07-05-02, 01:50 AM
#77
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ForceFed7's Motor - 3 rotor
ForceFed7 is definitely running a 3-rotor. This is from Peter Ferrel and famous for installing 3-rotors in 7s.
Also, if you look at the torque, this speaks volumes this is a 3-rotor.
No 13b here!
Rick
Also, if you look at the torque, this speaks volumes this is a 3-rotor.
No 13b here!
Rick
07-05-02, 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by relvinnian
Forcefed7 -
Either you are running a 3 rotor engine, or you are running a large shot of nitrous. Don't play this forum to be idiots.
First of all, your car makes peak tq around ~5800 rpm. This indicates that you have a very lightly ported motor, especially considering the large flow of your turbine section. Second of all you are making 500 rwtq ON JUST A TURBO? Your car is making 476rwtq @ 11psi on a 13b motor?
I suggest you tell us a little bit more about your "setup", before you get really torn up.
I'm not trying to be an *******, but studying a dyno graph can tell alot about someone's car.
Forcefed7 -
Either you are running a 3 rotor engine, or you are running a large shot of nitrous. Don't play this forum to be idiots.
First of all, your car makes peak tq around ~5800 rpm. This indicates that you have a very lightly ported motor, especially considering the large flow of your turbine section. Second of all you are making 500 rwtq ON JUST A TURBO?
Your car is making 476rwtq @ 11psi on a 13b motor? I suggest you tell us a little bit more about your "setup", before you get really torn up
.I'm not trying to be an *******, but studying a dyno graph can tell alot about someone's car.
07-05-02, 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by Greg
I believe it, especially with the spooling of a Qtrim T72 with 1.15. If he was spraying the powerband would be earlier in the RPM range.
I believe it, especially with the spooling of a Qtrim T72 with 1.15. If he was spraying the powerband would be earlier in the RPM range.
T-70 Greg. I think the last run will show when I was and wasn't spraying. BTW the 132#, that was the 132 pull on that motor
Thanks for actaully being supportive
07-05-02, 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by Greg
Can we see the NOS run?
Can we see the NOS run?
635RWHP & 565RWTQ Vs 615RWHP & 501RWTQ
Come pair it to the 615rw run, you'll see, as soon as it goes WOT it jumps up on power. Where as the other runs are flat and take much longer to spool. The nitrous run was at a lower boost level then the all turbo 615 run. I'm working on a few thing right now, so I can get the NOS to pull clean at really high boost levels. But that testing won't start for another 2-3 weeks.
Thanks,
Ray
07-05-02, 04:46 PM
#83
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Originally posted by gmonsen
jim. thanks for posting the run. can you tell me how to translate KW into rwhp? and, is the horizontal line the a/f lambda reading? if so, what is it reading? we are used to seeing whole numbers to 1. ie, 11:1 or just 11 meaning the ratio is 11 to 1. it seems like it has a nice linear power build. no rocket ship thing there. looks pretty cotnrollable and good coming out of corners? thanks, gordon
jim. thanks for posting the run. can you tell me how to translate KW into rwhp? and, is the horizontal line the a/f lambda reading? if so, what is it reading? we are used to seeing whole numbers to 1. ie, 11:1 or just 11 meaning the ratio is 11 to 1. it seems like it has a nice linear power build. no rocket ship thing there. looks pretty cotnrollable and good coming out of corners? thanks, gordon
746Watts=1hp
so just take that KW and devide into .746 and that will give you HP
07-05-02, 07:02 PM
#84
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Originally posted by forcefed7
I'm not too sure as what there is to not believe about my numbers and not using nitrous on those runs. I understand that you may not see numbers like that very often but they are by no means impossible. Ari for example, I don't know what kind of numbers he's making and from what I hear is he doesn't really talk about his numbers too much, but 2 years ago he was making 640rw, do you think he is still only making 640? I'd say no, I would guess low 700's. He's going 148 trap speeds. Anyways, I know there are a few people on this forum and may look at my runs and say nice, but they have seen more. I posted what my setup was earlier, and yes it's a 13B 2 rotor. This car is my everyday street car that I just bolted some slicks on. I'll post a nitrous run just so you can see the difference in the spool up and torque, to convince you that the two other runs were turbo only. The purple computer thing was joke, it is purple but is a TEC3. I never said anything about the boost levels. Anyways I'll be at E-Town this weekend and MIR the following, if you still don't believe my setup. I'm guessing you guys will want an AVI of a dyno run next
I'm not too sure as what there is to not believe about my numbers and not using nitrous on those runs. I understand that you may not see numbers like that very often but they are by no means impossible. Ari for example, I don't know what kind of numbers he's making and from what I hear is he doesn't really talk about his numbers too much, but 2 years ago he was making 640rw, do you think he is still only making 640? I'd say no, I would guess low 700's. He's going 148 trap speeds. Anyways, I know there are a few people on this forum and may look at my runs and say nice, but they have seen more. I posted what my setup was earlier, and yes it's a 13B 2 rotor. This car is my everyday street car that I just bolted some slicks on. I'll post a nitrous run just so you can see the difference in the spool up and torque, to convince you that the two other runs were turbo only. The purple computer thing was joke, it is purple but is a TEC3. I never said anything about the boost levels. Anyways I'll be at E-Town this weekend and MIR the following, if you still don't believe my setup. I'm guessing you guys will want an AVI of a dyno run next
? Let's do some simple calculations here. We'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and be very optimistic with all the variables that come into play: Sea level
Ambient temp: 0 deg C
Intercooler efficiency: 90% (almost impossible on a dyno without extra cooling)
Boost: 11psi
BSFC: 255 g/hp/hr (Like you're seeing that with your limited porting
)A/F: 11.5:1
Capacity: 2.616l
VE% @ power peak: 92%
RPM @ power peak (according to graph 1): ~7150 RPM
RPM @ TQ peak: ~5800 RPM
With the above variables, making 100% VE% @ tq peak, and 92% @ power peak, would net approx. 326 rwhp, and ~307rwtq.
Bottom line is, even with the above HIGHLY conservative variables, your ENGINE would need to be around 157.1% volumetrically efficient, to make 571rwhp @ 7150 rpm, and 178.4% volumetrically efficient to make 476 rwtq @ 5800 rpm.
The laws of physics, don't bend for your car. This is complete bullshit.
What's worse, is I don't believe you actually KNOW your car is not making this power. I'm sad to say you have been mis-informed
07-05-02, 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by relvinnian
What's so unbelieveable? Let's do some simple calculations here. We'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and be very optimistic with all the variables that come into play:
Sea level
Ambient temp: 0 deg C
Intercooler efficiency: 90% (almost impossible on a dyno without extra cooling)
Boost: 11psi
BSFC: 255 g/hp/hr (Like you're seeing that with your limited porting)
A/F: 11.5:1
Capacity: 2.616l
VE% @ power peak: 92%
RPM @ power peak (according to graph 1): ~7150 RPM
RPM @ TQ peak: ~5800 RPM
With the above variables, making 100% VE% @ tq peak, and 92% @ power peak, would net approx. 326 rwhp, and ~307rwtq.
Bottom line is, even with the above HIGHLY conservative variables, your ENGINE would need to be around 157.1% volumetrically efficient, to make 571rwhp @ 7150 rpm, and 178.4% volumetrically efficient to make 476 rwtq @ 5800 rpm.
The laws of physics, don't bend for your car. This is complete bullshit.
What's worse, is I don't believe you actually KNOW your car is not making this power. I'm sad to say you have been mis-informed
What's so unbelieveable
? Let's do some simple calculations here. We'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and be very optimistic with all the variables that come into play: Sea level
Ambient temp: 0 deg C
Intercooler efficiency: 90% (almost impossible on a dyno without extra cooling)
Boost: 11psi
BSFC: 255 g/hp/hr (Like you're seeing that with your limited porting
)A/F: 11.5:1
Capacity: 2.616l
VE% @ power peak: 92%
RPM @ power peak (according to graph 1): ~7150 RPM
RPM @ TQ peak: ~5800 RPM
With the above variables, making 100% VE% @ tq peak, and 92% @ power peak, would net approx. 326 rwhp, and ~307rwtq.
Bottom line is, even with the above HIGHLY conservative variables, your ENGINE would need to be around 157.1% volumetrically efficient, to make 571rwhp @ 7150 rpm, and 178.4% volumetrically efficient to make 476 rwtq @ 5800 rpm.
The laws of physics, don't bend for your car. This is complete bullshit.
What's worse, is I don't believe you actually KNOW your car is not making this power. I'm sad to say you have been mis-informed
First , I wish you would realize I never said anything about running 11psi. The boost level was almost three times that. I'm not asking you to believe me. I simply posted my dyno sheet to help/show what was possible with the correct tuning and parts selections. Looks as if I'm going to have to put together a AVI for all the nay sayer.
07-05-02, 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by gmonsen
just figured out who this is... (with a little help...) this guy's numbers are DEFINITELY FOR REAL. an old friend who has never spent any time on the forum. we started at about the same place. he went GONZO and i went grand touring... (the idea of this being a "street" car is laughable. does it have a tube frame forcefed?) anyway, guys. we can learn a lot from this guy. i think he and i went haltech together in 1999 and then went with full msd ignitions a bit later. are you still running it? i thought you had pulled it at some point? ernie told me you were still using it?
good to have you on the forum and welcome. sorry about the doubting. if you'd posted your boost, it would have made sense. there are a lot of guys posting **** and you're not one of them. welcome again. -gordon
just figured out who this is... (with a little help...) this guy's numbers are DEFINITELY FOR REAL. an old friend who has never spent any time on the forum. we started at about the same place. he went GONZO and i went grand touring... (the idea of this being a "street" car is laughable. does it have a tube frame forcefed?) anyway, guys. we can learn a lot from this guy. i think he and i went haltech together in 1999 and then went with full msd ignitions a bit later. are you still running it? i thought you had pulled it at some point? ernie told me you were still using it?
good to have you on the forum and welcome. sorry about the doubting. if you'd posted your boost, it would have made sense. there are a lot of guys posting **** and you're not one of them. welcome again. -gordon
07-05-02, 09:09 PM
#88
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So, I am still not convinced...
Post us the facts. Give to the community that you are "kind'a" part of. What is your mod list and what are the particulars of your setup. I, like gmonsen, would like to learn what you did to make all that torque, especially on the 13b.
If this is real and drivable, and holds together, Toadman(!), get the boys together. We need to build the next gen RX-7 with LOTS of horsepower.
Well...
Rick
Post us the facts. Give to the community that you are "kind'a" part of. What is your mod list and what are the particulars of your setup. I, like gmonsen, would like to learn what you did to make all that torque, especially on the 13b.
If this is real and drivable, and holds together, Toadman(!), get the boys together. We need to build the next gen RX-7 with LOTS of horsepower.
Well...
Rick
07-05-02, 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by carcrazy
So, I am still not convinced...
Post us the facts. Give to the community that you are "kind'a" part of. What is your mod list and what are the particulars of your setup. I, like gmonsen, would like to learn what you did to make all that torque, especially on the 13b.
If this is real and drivable, and holds together, Toadman(!), get the boys together. We need to build the next gen RX-7 with LOTS of horsepower.
Well...
Rick
So, I am still not convinced...
Post us the facts. Give to the community that you are "kind'a" part of. What is your mod list and what are the particulars of your setup. I, like gmonsen, would like to learn what you did to make all that torque, especially on the 13b.
If this is real and drivable, and holds together, Toadman(!), get the boys together. We need to build the next gen RX-7 with LOTS of horsepower.
Well...
Rick
-BB T-70 Qtrim 1.15 with burnt off tips(just switch to T51 this week)
-PFS Ported Motor with stock 2mm seals and springs
-PFS Race Stock Mount Intercooler
-PFS Race fuel System, Top Feed 1600&850 inj.
-PFS Tuned Electromotive TEC3
-PFS Light Flywheel and Race Clutch
-PFS Street Suspension Package
-PFS Boost Gauge
-PFS Center Muffler
-PFS Catback Exhaust
-PFS TUNED...
Hope this all help. I might be able to put together a video clip of a dyno run to sometime next week.
07-05-02, 10:38 PM
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Originally posted by forcefed7
Ok here we go again...
-BB T-70 Qtrim 1.15 with burnt off tips(just switch to T51 this week)
-PFS Ported Motor with stock 2mm seals and springs
-PFS Race Stock Mount Intercooler
-PFS Race fuel System, Top Feed 1600&850 inj.
-PFS Tuned Electromotive TEC3
-PFS Light Flywheel and Race Clutch
-PFS Street Suspension Package
-PFS Boost Gauge
-PFS Center Muffler
-PFS Catback Exhaust
-PFS TUNED...
Hope this all help. I might be able to put together a video clip of a dyno run to sometime next week.
Ok here we go again...
-BB T-70 Qtrim 1.15 with burnt off tips(just switch to T51 this week)
-PFS Ported Motor with stock 2mm seals and springs
-PFS Race Stock Mount Intercooler
-PFS Race fuel System, Top Feed 1600&850 inj.
-PFS Tuned Electromotive TEC3
-PFS Light Flywheel and Race Clutch
-PFS Street Suspension Package
-PFS Boost Gauge
-PFS Center Muffler
-PFS Catback Exhaust
-PFS TUNED...
Hope this all help. I might be able to put together a video clip of a dyno run to sometime next week.
Very impressive !!!
07-05-02, 11:10 PM
#92
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Hi Ray..Sounds like your work with the TEC 3 is paying off. Great Numbers....Tell your boy across the street Chris said Hello. Also, tell him Abaccus purchased a 911 to run in the Speedvision series.
07-06-02, 12:42 AM
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Originally posted by gmonsen
guys, this forcefed7 led me to believe he was someone i know. a friend, demetri karajiannis, who really does make that kind of power. its not and this guy's being "coy" and not saying who he is. i asked him in a pm who he was and he didn't repsond.
the only one i know who uses all that farrell stuff and might really make that kind of power would be peter. no one. i repeat, no one i know uses all that PFS stuff and makes 600+ hp with a 2 rotor. sooo, i don't know who this guy is, but am back to looking for a dyno run from another shop before i buy into this stuff.
i don't know anyone crazy enough to claim that a 30 psi car is a daily driver. that's bs. (i don't know how to do the flag thing, but this could cause me to learn...) at this point, forcefed7, you couldn't get me interested in anything you've got to say.
one thing i noticed which gets me to run up the BS flag again is the midpipe center "muffler". guys running 3-going-to-4 inch straight pipes have trouble making 550 rwhp, and forcefed7 can do it with a center muffler? how about a full catalytic converter? or would that bring the power down from 615 to, say, 600? take the car to any other dyno shop and get it run on their dyno. post the results. if it makes 615 rwhp there, i'll totally believe it.
(for those not familiar with the PFS terminology... PFS has never had parts available for sale that have anyone else's name on them. in the old days Peter sold ACT and Centeforce clutches and listed them in its brochure as PFS street or PFS "race" clutches. i believe the PFS Race fuel pump was a nippon denso from the cosmo. i expect it is some other pump today.)
-gordon
guys, this forcefed7 led me to believe he was someone i know. a friend, demetri karajiannis, who really does make that kind of power. its not and this guy's being "coy" and not saying who he is. i asked him in a pm who he was and he didn't repsond.
the only one i know who uses all that farrell stuff and might really make that kind of power would be peter. no one. i repeat, no one i know uses all that PFS stuff and makes 600+ hp with a 2 rotor. sooo, i don't know who this guy is, but am back to looking for a dyno run from another shop before i buy into this stuff.
i don't know anyone crazy enough to claim that a 30 psi car is a daily driver. that's bs. (i don't know how to do the flag thing, but this could cause me to learn...) at this point, forcefed7, you couldn't get me interested in anything you've got to say.
one thing i noticed which gets me to run up the BS flag again is the midpipe center "muffler". guys running 3-going-to-4 inch straight pipes have trouble making 550 rwhp, and forcefed7 can do it with a center muffler? how about a full catalytic converter? or would that bring the power down from 615 to, say, 600? take the car to any other dyno shop and get it run on their dyno. post the results. if it makes 615 rwhp there, i'll totally believe it.
(for those not familiar with the PFS terminology... PFS has never had parts available for sale that have anyone else's name on them. in the old days Peter sold ACT and Centeforce clutches and listed them in its brochure as PFS street or PFS "race" clutches. i believe the PFS Race fuel pump was a nippon denso from the cosmo. i expect it is some other pump today.)
-gordon
-Ray
07-06-02, 01:22 AM
#94
Senior Member
Depending on what you run, the center muffler has quite a bit of flow. Running my measly 403 rwhp, there was almost no difference running a high-flow cat and the mid-muffler - it was about 10 rwhp. Though true, I did not run without some type of mid-pipe restriction.
The sound is much quieter with the mid-muffler also.
With this turbo change, this makes me want to go out to X S Engineering and see what kind of special T04x they can cook up for me. I am sure I can find an additional 50 rwhp with about the same performance above 4,000 rpm....
Rick
The sound is much quieter with the mid-muffler also.
With this turbo change, this makes me want to go out to X S Engineering and see what kind of special T04x they can cook up for me. I am sure I can find an additional 50 rwhp with about the same performance above 4,000 rpm....
Rick
Originally posted by gmonsen
uuuhhhh, or peter's lead tech... now that i know who you are, i have to rethink the 615 rwhp. as the head tech for PFS, if anyone can pull those kind of numbers, its got to be you.
all BS aside, how the hell do you pull that off with a center muffler for chrissakes? i would think you'd have to be running an a/f of about 12+:1 and assume that the motor has to be a fairly extreme street port. a T88 is an almost unstreetable turbo with its lack of bottom end and 4 inch downpipe. an HKS Kai is about the same? i guess this is do-able, but think your idea of a "street" car and mine differ a lot.
before peter and i had our (now infamous) problems, i had wanted him to put a tecII on my car instead of the piggyback. while PFS is the only shop really doing anything with the electromotive stuff, it has always appealed to me. i like the idea of the coils built in to it. does the electromotive offer anything we don't see with the haltech, motec, and power fc stuff? -gordon
uuuhhhh, or peter's lead tech... now that i know who you are, i have to rethink the 615 rwhp. as the head tech for PFS, if anyone can pull those kind of numbers, its got to be you.
all BS aside, how the hell do you pull that off with a center muffler for chrissakes? i would think you'd have to be running an a/f of about 12+:1 and assume that the motor has to be a fairly extreme street port. a T88 is an almost unstreetable turbo with its lack of bottom end and 4 inch downpipe. an HKS Kai is about the same? i guess this is do-able, but think your idea of a "street" car and mine differ a lot.
before peter and i had our (now infamous) problems, i had wanted him to put a tecII on my car instead of the piggyback. while PFS is the only shop really doing anything with the electromotive stuff, it has always appealed to me. i like the idea of the coils built in to it. does the electromotive offer anything we don't see with the haltech, motec, and power fc stuff? -gordon
07-06-02, 01:26 AM
#95
Senior Member
I am in awe! This much torque from a 13b.
Unless this is trade secrets, what are the mods on the inside of the motor? Do you pin the rotor housings? Are you running special rotors and/or housings.
Very cool as I still can't stop thinking about all that torque. Running over 25 psi, I could imagine.
Rick
Unless this is trade secrets, what are the mods on the inside of the motor? Do you pin the rotor housings? Are you running special rotors and/or housings.
Very cool as I still can't stop thinking about all that torque. Running over 25 psi, I could imagine.
Rick
Originally posted by forcefed7
I'm still sticking to my car as being a "REAL STREET CAR" yes you can run 30+psi on race gas in it on the street. Or can turn the boost down and run pump gas, you don't have to switch progams or anything, it has full interior, AC, PS,PW,Sunroof. What is there about the car that isn't street able? Idles just as smooth as stock. I'm not running the T-70 (turbo that was use on the printed dyno sheets) now, but it spooled upto 15-17psi just as fast a my T78. You know for the right price, I might consider making a trip to Gordon's "tuner shop" KD Rotary and make a pull. That would solve all the "talk and claimed hp#'s"
-Ray
I'm still sticking to my car as being a "REAL STREET CAR" yes you can run 30+psi on race gas in it on the street. Or can turn the boost down and run pump gas, you don't have to switch progams or anything, it has full interior, AC, PS,PW,Sunroof. What is there about the car that isn't street able? Idles just as smooth as stock. I'm not running the T-70 (turbo that was use on the printed dyno sheets) now, but it spooled upto 15-17psi just as fast a my T78. You know for the right price, I might consider making a trip to Gordon's "tuner shop" KD Rotary and make a pull. That would solve all the "talk and claimed hp#'s"
-Ray
07-06-02, 02:40 AM
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Originally posted by carcrazy
I am in awe! This much torque from a 13b.
Unless this is trade secrets, what are the mods on the inside of the motor? Do you pin the rotor housings? Are you running special rotors and/or housings.
Very cool as I still can't stop thinking about all that torque. Running over 25 psi, I could imagine.
Rick
I am in awe! This much torque from a 13b.
Unless this is trade secrets, what are the mods on the inside of the motor? Do you pin the rotor housings? Are you running special rotors and/or housings.
Very cool as I still can't stop thinking about all that torque. Running over 25 psi, I could imagine.
Rick
-Ray
07-06-02, 09:18 AM
#98
I guess everyone has their own opinion on what is streetable. For me I don't want a setup where I have 150rwhp at 4.5k rpms and it jumps to 450rwhp at 6.5k rpms. To me that is dangerous. I want power down low and a more gradual power curve to the peak. Peak numbers are not that important to me.
Ya, I know, put a V8 in it. I'm beginning to wish I did.
Ken
Ya, I know, put a V8 in it. I'm beginning to wish I did.
Ken
07-06-02, 09:52 AM
#99
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
That is how "small displacement" engines deliver their power. You cannot expect to have a 2.6lt engine giving a large percentage of its power over 2/3 its usable speed range. This is the domain of large displacement engines realy, but even they when tunned for a sports car have a very flat torque curve which gives a linear power spread, my dyno graph when examined closley is pretty linear from 4k to 8k this is more than acceptable.
Any engine delivering 550bhp in a 1100kg car is going to be dangerous on street tires in 2wd application in my opinion and needs to be treated with respect. Inherent to turbo charged vehicles is the sudden exponential nature of torque build up once the turbine starts doing usefull work (around 4k on serious single turbo applications) this is an unavoidable side effect of turbo chargers, and is worse the more boost you run.
Any engine delivering 550bhp in a 1100kg car is going to be dangerous on street tires in 2wd application in my opinion and needs to be treated with respect. Inherent to turbo charged vehicles is the sudden exponential nature of torque build up once the turbine starts doing usefull work (around 4k on serious single turbo applications) this is an unavoidable side effect of turbo chargers, and is worse the more boost you run.
07-06-02, 10:19 AM
#100
Well GMONSEM e-mailed me a dyno of a XS T04 that had 150rwhp at 3k, 250 at 3.5k, 340 at 4k, 370 at 4.5k, 390 at 5k, 410 at 5.5k. That is a power curve that is more streetable and safe to me. Not perfect as a V8 would be.
That's what I hope to get with my configuration.
Ken
That's what I hope to get with my configuration.
Ken