Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Nice!

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

Here is an update for everyone.

The last week and a half was probably the craziest that I've had in a long time.
The dyno tuning date was set for April 12th. My buddy (Fishey) and I drove down to meet Chris Ludwig at Automotion in downtown Louisville. Let me preface the rest by saying that the folks at Automotion are very professional and friendly. It was a breath of fresh air to be working with people that were not only car enthusiasts, but genuine people as well. I can see why Chris has developed a good relationship with them.

At about 8:30 am, the car was strapped to the dyno and Chris began to work on the steady state tuning. Everything went very smoothly for about 2 hours as Chris worked his way up through the different load and rpm ranges. Shortly after, I heard the car shut off, and I saw Chris getting out of the car so I came over to find that oil was everywhere, and I then see the cause. The oil filter pedestal had broke in half! Turns out that the pedestal that I had purchased in a GB a couple years ago was a 2-piece design made by "MRC Manufacturing". Turns out that this design had been recalled due to a reported "failure"(hmm, wonder what that was), and urged people to send them back in for an upgrade to the now produced 1-piece design. After inspecting the piece, it was indeed a really shitty design, and the manufacturer and designers should be embarrassed to produce that kind of quality on something considered to be a critical element. So at the time, I was out the time and money spent for the trip down, and incurred a "dyno cleanup fee" for dumping oil all over the dyno (THANKS MRC!)

So we called it a day until I could get another oil pedestal. We re-scheduled dyno time for 8:30am on the following Friday, the 18th. During the week, Chris spent some time to drop the tranny to check the clutch/PP/flywheel for any oil that may have found its way through the inspection plate opening. I took the day off work on friday and made the trip back to Louisville on Thursday evening to replace the oil pedestal with a new unit, and help Chris get the tranny back in. We got everything buttoned back up, and without any leaks, we went out for some road tuning and to get the maps setup for doing boost pulls on the dyno the following morning.

We worked out way up, and eventually did about 10-12 boost pulls on the 11.5psi gate springs. Let me tell you that the car had never ran so smooth. Everything felt great while cruising and pulled very nicely doing the boost pulls that we did. The car was definitely ready to get into boost on the dyno. I was VERY excited and felt good about the following morning.

After we survived the 5.2 scale earthquake that rattled the house like crazy, we made our way to Automotion on Friday morning. The car was strapped down around 8:45, and after some laptop setup, Chris started the car to make the first boost pull. I backed away from the car, and Chris because going through the gears to eventually get into 4th. I sat down and plugged my ears to negate the effects of the dual 38mm wastegates dumped to the atmosphere. I was watching some of the gauges as the rpms climbed, then time pretty much stood still in my mind as I see a nice tall stream of oil shoot from the engine bay, and all over the car. Again, the car was immediately shut off, and my head drops immediately as I knew exactly what happened...

Yep. Another cracked front plate.

Aftter a 2 and a half hour ride home in a tow truck, and a few days to ponder, I'm still stuck wondering what in the world could have caused this. I thought that I had taken all the precautions/steps necessary to eliminate this from happening, but obviously that wasn't the case.

Boost was still on the gates, holding a steady 11psi, AFR's in the low 11's, temps and everything else...A-ok. What in the world caused it to detonate and crack my plate? Why was it fine the previous night, and not in the morning?

For those of you that don't know, this is the 3rd time that I've cracked a plate. 1 rear, and 2 fronts. I don't know what else to do, and I'm seriously considering selling it all, and stepping away from the scene. It definitely sounds like I need to take a hint.

I'll try to get some pictures up of the carnage.

Chris Ludwig, I cannot thank enough. He is an amazing tuner, and I appreciate all of his help and knowledge that he has passed to me. He took things very seriously on my car, and I could tell that he wanted everything to be correct. We are searching for the cause and hope to come up with something.


CLIFF NOTES:
Shitty designed Oil filter pedestal broke in half on the dyno, causing oil to go everywhere. Stopped tuning until we could get it replaced. Lost time and money in the process.

Following dyno session, for no rhyme or reason, front plate cracked on the very first pull. Low boost, 11psi, 11 AFR, temps Ok. No clue as to what happened. Looking for answers.

Might sell everything, and get away from the game.

DelSlow

iTrader: (2)

Ouch, that sucks. I cracked an S5 T2 front plate last year on the way to the track. Definately not fun.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Wow man.

I feel your pain, I'm on engine number 5 in two years from having front rotor issues. Still for the life of me cannot figure out why I could boost 10-12psi for days, and pass something at 40%throttle 6psi 4K rpm and detonate. Absolute mystery........that I'm still trying to solve.

Wish I could offer some insight as to what you've got going on but I've never had a front OR rear plate crack myself. Only the apex seals are my issue.

Were there any datalogs from any of these pulls? What spark plugs were used?

Very sorry for your loss, I understand the pain

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

No log from the pull on the dyno. I think we have a few logs from the previous night on the road. Chris would have to chime in with those.

Plugs were new NGK BUR9EQ's. NGK 10.5's were going to be used for over 14psi, but didn't even get close.

2Fierce

iTrader: (7)

That sucks! I can't imagine what I'd do...

joe! You've gone through 5 engines!!!? Who's been building these lol

Turbo23

iTrader: (4)

I am very sorry to hear this These types of stories just want to push me away from turbo setups even more. But the cost of building a decent 20b NA is quite high. I hope your able to keep your head in there, decent rotary guys are few and far between. Are you able to salvage the motor at all, and only need a new front plate?

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

I haven't even started to tear anything apart yet. I had the wrenches in my had on saturday, but could only stare at the bay and coudn't bring myself to tear into it yet.

From the previous cracked front plate, the only thing needed was a new plate, porting, and new Corner Seal Springs from a few being flattened.

I would imagine it's just the same, but I'd probably replace apex seal springs as well, as well as some new side seals and springs. Other than that, I'd want to have everything balanced for security, and would probably get new OEM soft seals to keep things fresh.

I don't know...it keeps adding up in my mind, and it de-motivates me to do it again, only to be taking the same chance from not knowing what caused it.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

Sorry to hear that, just the thought of it, makes me want to bail out too

2Fierce

iTrader: (7)

...ls1?

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

Hell no... I'd just buy a domestic, but then I would have to shrink my ***** and grow a mullet, and I don't think I could handle a mullet....

2Fierce

iTrader: (7)

Just throwing it out there...

supra?

arghx

iTrader: (3)

are you sure your timing is set properly? Something has to be up here man. I've got an s4 motor with the weak irons and I'm pushing 19psi (race gas) no problem with a T04S. I've leaned the car out a gazillion times in my attempts at self-tuning and nothing's blown (yet. I know it'll happen). In fact I've also overheated the car and had a 20psi boost spike on stock turbo, audibly detonated it, and nothing's blown. Motor was built by Bruce Turrentine with RA super seals.

Where are you getting these irons?

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

Timing was spot on in relation to the Mazda Racing 6-rib pulley. This piece is one of the things in question at the moment. I need to verify the timing marks against the stock pulley.

The last motor was up to 20psi with no issues when it cracked the front plate last summer. The summer before that, 18psi on 110 leaded when it cracked the rear plate.

IF the timing was off, it would only be very minimal, as the car runs fine, starts fine, etc etc. It has only cracked plates in the upper RPM range at various loads and boost. If it was WAY off, the car would run crappy...

Rear plate - 18psi - 2nd gear - ~7200 rpm
1st front plate - 20 psi - 3rd gear - ~6800 rpm
2nd front plate - 11psi - 4th gear - ~6700 rpm

eriksseven

iTrader: (6)

Were you seeing anything on your front-rotor EGT gauge that would seem suspicious?

CyborgRyu

iTrader: (8)

go cosmo 8-)

zenofspeed

iTrader: (1)

Holy crap...

I was following your thread as I am getting a two-car garage and seriously considering rebuilding my own motor.. The work you did looks flippin sweet and I wouldn't of even held myself up to that high of a standard..

But the end result gives me pause..

I'd push through and just replace that plate and other items you mentioned and try again.. It would be hard to do all that work and just get rid of it.

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

Chris would have to give you that answer. I do know that the rear rotor was running lean on the previous weekend, and it was trimmed out to be even. The trim changes would have still been in place for the dyno the second time around.

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

Cosmo, REW, or 20B of course would be the next viable option. Either that, or stud my motor to hell and back.

All those options are much more money, and I honestly don't feel like taking another chance at this point.

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

Thanks for the compliments. I assure you that there is nothing like having the satisfaction of a motor starting up, knowing that you built it with your own two hands.
But keep in mind, the failure hurts that much worse as well.

I would love to continue, but the issue is resolving the problem first. I have not been able to eliminate the problem at all, so everything has been pretty much a waste to this point.

I do, however, wish you luck with your build.

13B-RX3

iTrader: (2)

Were all the failures with the same ECU, Map, Firmware, Software? Maybe there is some kind of intermittent glitch that is causing timing go haywire. How is the wiring to the CAS, maybe it is cross firing or picking up interference from the ignition?


Where are they cracking?

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

No, first two failures were on an E6X and stock coils. I am pretty sure the first 2 were somewhat related to the ECU and a glitch of somesort that you mentioned.

Hence the reason for the upgrade to the E8, and a complete re-wire. CAS wires are shielded in the Haltech wiring loom, plus I wrapped the whole wire with Aluminum Tape from the CAS back (you can see the reflection through the mesh loom in some of the pics).

Third failure was on the E8, with the new beefy coils, and 10mm thick Magnecores.

They are cracking on the front plate, on the dowel pin land, on the oil galley. Here is a pic from the last break:





Crack this time is the same.

13B-RX3

iTrader: (2)

Well personally the way i would attack this would to figure what was on the car trough all the failures.

I wouldn't think it was anything motor wise (seals, irons, ect...) and all of the wiring has been replaced. Maybe one of the sensors is going south. If the CAS was loosing it's home signal that would cause some very interesting problems. Was the CAS the same for all the failures. I wouldn't imagine a small variation in timing would cause this, you would almost have to fire it 180 degrees out of phase or something extreme like that. If it was the timing being off just a few degrees you would think you would have a little audible warning before it failed. And even then you would think the seals would let go before the iron. When the motor is at or close to TDC there is very little of the iron exposed to the combustion chamber but roll it back 20 degreed and there is a lot more surface area for the detonation to slam against.

Just my $0.02


My vote is something ignition related that caused a plug to fire at the wrong time.

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

I agreed with this logic on the first 2 times, which is why I got away from the E6X, and the stock ignition and wiring. The CAS that came with the motor, when I bought the car stock with a blown rear seal, was in there for the first 2 failures.

On this failure, it was a completely different CAS. Unless they both were having problems, but from the trigger diagnostics, this one was getting a good signal.

Thanks for your input! This helps generate thinking for figuring out the cause, which is what I MUST do before I even consider moving forward.

I really wish some of the some more big wigs would come in here and give their $.02

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

someday you and i should trade war stories when it comes to luck with Rx-7s.

on a serious note, it sucks. however, you're in this for a reason and unless you feel the passion is truly fading or dead - these things will always happen, so just take your time to mourn, lament, be angry and analyze, then get right back in it.

timing is the only thing i can think of right now, and i would definitely urge you to verify and re-verify the marks on the pulley. out of curiosity, where on the front housing did it crack? dowel area?


EDIT

i see you posted a pic while i was going between the keyboard and TV ... sorry. dowel area confirmed.