RX Steve

Ok I know you people will think I'm nuts but here goes.

I have a buddy who bought Scott Pruet's 1996 Indy car and restored it and races in a historical class. He was trying to talk me into playing with a methanol alternative to intercooling like his car has.
Our backgrounds might help clear up the insanity involved here. I am a carpenter and millwork shop owner but he has owned a computer manufacturing company. He bought the Indy car as a non running heap of parts. He had to reverse engineer ALL of the electronics (Cosworth does not supply a manual on Indy cars) He has rebuilt and raced in many classes and he owned a third gen RX7 in the past. My car is in a billion peices getting ready to reassemble now. I was talking to him about intercooler placement and radiator placement when this came up.
More background info. I am located near Petit Racing and spoke to Cam about this and he says "try it". I am also located directly next to Mosler's carbon fiber shop. Mosler has offered help because I have helped them with the clearcoat system they are now switching to (I developed this system and gave it to them). I am building carbon fiber doors (race only), Hatch (done), And lots of top secret stuff too.
Anyway here is the idea in a nutshell. There is no need to intercool until boost exceeds about 7-10 pounds. The plan is to build a split fuel cell for gas on one side and methanol on the other. We have the ability with Haltek to trigger the methanol injectors by many parameters which include Boost, Air temp, Throttle position, etc. I would (and so would Bill the Indy Car Owner) prefer a Motec and we may have to go that way but I'll wait and see. One of my goals is to have the lightest street going RX7s on earth and this Idea is part of that.
Can anyone tell me why this won't work? I know some one else has thought of this.



Steve

Evil Aviator

Wow, we sure seem to be getting a lot of fuel questions lately on this forum.

What is so great about not having an intercooler? No matter what fuel you use, the supercharger is going to heat the air under compression. An intercooler will almost always increase your performance, regardless of whether or not you need it to combat detonation.

Anyway, sure, you could use methane injection. Why not forget the pump gas all together, and simply run nitromethane? This would give you 70% power increase over unleaded pump gas.

Note that the funky fuel will require much larger or additional injectors, higher output or additional fuel pump, lower compression, special alcohol-rated fuel system components, etc. It's going to be an extensive project, but it sounds like that is right down your alley, LOL. Here are some links that you may find interesting:

http://pages.prodigy.net/csw_cmt/page10.htm
http://terrasol.home.igc.org/alky/alky.htm

BTW, does Cam still have that Hewland transmission for sale?

Maxthe7man

What he is on about is the latent heat of vapourization of alcohol, when alcohol evaporates such as in an injection system, it absorbs tons of heat, so what he is saying is that by using a certain amoung ot methanol, one could possible cool the charge below ambient air temps, rendering and intercooler ineffective and thus not needed..
How good does alcohol cool?
I have seen many a drag car run alcohol , and run without a cooling system in the car...In fact to qualify for a street car drag competition, alot of cars had to do a 20 mile cruise, many thought this would get rid of the cars that had no cooling systems, however the ran just fine because the alcohol actually cooled the motor.. I have seen cars freeze their throttle plates closed in mid summer heat running alcohol...
This has actually already been done, its called methylated spirits injection, the first devices were quite crude in nature, however with modern injection and electronics, its worth having a re look at, think of it as enviroment issue as well, if they governments start handing out credits for alcohol burning or alternative fueled vehicles, why not collect the money and drive a 500hp rx-7 with the cash..yeah baby yeah...

And what is so great about not having an intercooler, less wieght, less plumbing, less effective plenum size, and thus less lag...Max

RX Steve

It needs to be done! My only concern is finding a way to trigger the methanol and then smoothly transitioning into it with the Haltek. I think I might end up going Motec before I get it right though.
The cost of methanol is minimal (mostly because I have a guy next to me buying 55 gallon drums of the stuff) It would cut way down on lag too which means I might get rid of the NOS system that is sitting on the shelf unopened. Plus I can sell the M2 intercooler and polished piping I have in order to balance out the cost a bit.
Methanol will easily drop the intake charge to below ambient (NO intercooler does that) and that means more efficiant power.
No intercooler also means better engine cooling because the radiator can be placed out front where it belongs. There would also be more room to fit a custom airbox for a nice ramair system.
Less weight is just the reason why I began considering it.
A practical instalation and operating system will be the key. I think a guy who builds race cars (for fun not money) is the right guy to help me out here. He also knows Motec like it is a rerun of Seinfeld!! One more reason to MOTEC it. Anyone need an E6K?

Steve

80-CU.IN.T

You are 100% right Maxthe rx7man about heat vaporization of alcohol," AWESOME POTENTIAL." The only draw back is the size of the custom fuel cell. If you plan on using a large enough quantity alcohol at higher boost levels to work, you are going to need a good size tank. I guess it depends on how far you want to travel before fill ups.

RX Steve

We will work out a close estimate of fuel to methanol ratios and build it!

Steve

Marcel Burkett

Water is always better and it is free !!!!!! , also I hope you are also concidering a very well designed fire supression system , I actually work (as a supervisor) on a methanol producing chemical plant and believe me ,you dont want to have a bad experience with it . It is extremely flamable and is also a majour health hazard , because of the amoumt you would have to carry around I think you should forget about it.!!!!!

RX Steve

Water is not better for cooling the air charge and does not burn and contribute to power in that way. I intend to inject the methanol at the turbo so that it will evaporate as much as possible and cool the charge much better than water ever could. The main fuel source will still be 93 octane. The methanol is mostly to eliminte the need for an intercooler. I am already having a custom pair of fuel cells made so that is no problem. I do not believe methanol could be any more dangerous than gasoline. I do not wish to argue cause I am looking for any possible problems that might occur which is why I posted to start with.
There are drawbacks and I think I am aware of most of them. It will be a fairly complicated setup and tuning is going to be a hit or explode process. I have some really good help though so I feel confident.

Steve

Evil Aviator

You aren't planning on venting the BOV to the atmosphere with that methanol injection before the turbo, are you?

You probably already know this from your friend, but I would like to post this for the benefit of others reading this thread: Methanol is very poisonous, and can be absorbed through the skin or inhaled. It can oxidise to form formaldehyde, which has been shown to cause blindness and insanity. It will also absorb water, so you will need to store it properly and completely drain the fuel system of your car after use in order to prevent corrosion.

IMO, the injection isn't going to transition very smoothly, but you can probably tune it out to an acceptable level if you use small injectors.

SPOautos

Have you looked into propane injection? Since its a fuel you dont need to add a ton of extra gas for compensate for it. In addition its pretty cheap and accessible. There are kits already on the market for other cars that you can use. It also cools the charge WAY down.

STEPHEN

Kurgan

There are other ways of lowering your intake temp while putting your radiator up front.... I'm thinking mainly an air to water intercooler.

The way I read your last post, you are thinking of using it IN PLACE OF a water injection system, is that correct? Your first post made it sound like you would have two separate fuel systems, thus, 2 extra fuel rails that the car would transition over to at X boost. Which is the way you are thinking of this?

An air to water intercooler is a VERY effecient way of intercooling. The extra weight of hauling around another fuel cell with methanol in it would easily cancel out an air to water intercooler.

I think that the air to water idea is VERY often overlooked. I plan on doing this in my 20B FC in the future, as soon as I get rid of the twin turbos (well, I have to get it running first )

However, I think that methanol injection, instead of water injection would be a pretty cool setup... but Evil has a point about the BOV

Someone above asked "why not just go with methanol?" If it is so cheap for you, and we all know its superior cooling qualities... besides the fact that you need almost double the fuel for the same power output, what is keeping you from making it a totally meth vehicle?

A couple of not so related questions:
Is your car going to be a race only car, or is it ever going to see the streets? Are you going to strip the interior? It may help us provide feedback if we know exactly what this setup is going into...

surfpac

RxSteve

Steve,
You could turn on the methanol using an adjustable pressure switch from Digikey. http://info.digikey.com/T022/V5/0934.pdf

80-CU.IN.T

That is very good point about the BOV location. I don't know if you have seen methanol burn but that's the point you can't. If things catch on fire they could burn for a while before you know it. I know sounds very stupid but just say your arm caught on fire and you were in the day light you would not know it until you felt it. Saw a guy in a flame suite rolling on the ground everybody knew what was happening and we hit him with fire extinguishers but you did not see any flame. FYO.

Anthony Rodrigues

If this is going to be a street car you wont be able to use a hobbs switch as you need more alcohol to combat more heat, i.e more boost. I have been using this system efficiently for about 6 years now on both street and race cars. There is no need to run the entry point along way up the intake runner so the BOV need not be an issue, top alcohol cars run 50psi boost injecting fuel directly into the intake port. The Microtech MT12 System allows proper control of this system by having an aux injector control. That is what I used. I have tested this system and an intercooler still has its place here while it is not as critical. I would be keen to swap info on this system for some insight into the carbon fibre panels you mentioned.
REgards- Anthony

RX Steve

I am stuck on a laptop with very little battery life left and my power source was left at home so this post will have to wait til I return to home to post more. I am still planning this setup with NO intercooler. The BOV is not a concern with the design we have so far. Glad to see there are at least some of you guys reading this.

Steve

Marcel Burkett

You said you posted so that you can be made aware of possible problems , well guess what ? methanol poisoning / death and fire are very real possible problems!!!!! . If I could I would post a MSDS (material safety data sheet) for you guys , also you said that Methanol would cool the charge better than water ever could ......... , that is totally incorrect , water has a higher specific heat of vapourisation than methanol , so it would take less water to do the same job , it does not matter where you inject it , I dont think so many engineers on ralley teams and process plant design companys are wrong and you are right!!!! , we use water to quench high pressure steam from 375deg. C down to 125 deg. C on a METHANOL PLANT , dont you think they would have used methanol to do it if it were better ?? , since water (purified ) is very expensive.
And by the way if you drink gasoline you'll live ,if you drink MeOH you wont!!!.
Water does not contribute directly to the power equation but it is the best anti - detonant known , so you can TUNE for more power , how much of a power increase do you expect from MeOH ??? , take it from me it would not be significant if you use it how you intend , if used as a fuel maybe ,because it burns completely , but you would require very large amounts . I dont think all this headache and risk is worth it , just get a good intercooler and look into water injection.

Marcel Burkett

By the way , the liquid injected does not have to be only water , you can mix it wit MeOH (diluted methanol is less dangerous) , octane booster , C16 av. gas , nitro methane , what ever makes you happy , the AQUAMIST pump can handle just about anuthing!!!.

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

Finally a GREAT post on the benefits of pure water and the dangers of methanol.

I'm going to stick with water and skip methanol.

I value what years I have left.

Ken

Anthony Rodrigues

I had thought and theorised exactly the same but for reasons unknown to me(I am no chemist) it did not prove to be correct on the track or on the dyno. Water seemed to promote detonation in the wrong ammounts and easily caused power loss. The safety risk is not even relative when you are already talking C16 which is full of lead and other carsonogenics. The main reason I have used this system is for the burn characteristics of the fuel, the cooling is just a bonus.
Regards-Anthony

Marcel Burkett

I am not saying that it has to be C16 , i was just trying to explain that any secondary injection system doesnt have to be strictly one thing , there can be a level of flexability , you use this system as a FUEL not as a "QUENCH" , this is totally different , you would have a substantially larger system to flow that amount of methanol to get the benefits , but as a "Quench" it is just too complicated and dangerous , also if you tune your normal fuel in the wrong amounts you are going to explode , so why not with water ? , power loss can result if you dont tune your system (ignition advance and/or fuel lean out ) for it ,so I guess we still have to apply some sort of rule/s , be it 10% or the total flow is water , 900deg. F on the exhaust gas etc , etc . , rules would still apply, this system is free and safe there are other members on the forum who have used water injection with great sucess ( where is RICE and GMONSEN when you need them !!), if this guy wants to go ahed , fine by me I hope it works and he isnt injured in any way.

RX Steve

I have no interest in an argument so I will make this my last post on this thread.
I know that evaporating methanol can cool the air charge in a much shorter period of time than water could. The injection will take place AT THE TURBO just like the IRL guys do it.
Steve

Marcel Burkett

Have fun!!!!!!!!.

Anthony Rodrigues

Marcel,
You read me wrong, I was only adding my experiences. Hope I did not offend. I am always interested in others experiences and did not mean to flame you. The conditions I am talking about are only the extremes and I am not sure how they apply to road. I have used it as a fuel to add to octane while running normal pump fuel. In conjunction with an IC. Before the days of C16.
Regards-Anthony

crispeed

Hey Anthony!
Do you remember the days of draw and blow through carb setups! Remember with suck through setups that had no intercoolers adding a little alcohol with a fogger activated by a Hobbs switch at a certain boost level did a lot for power and reliability! Back then 25psi were not possible without that! Those were the days!
Now we have programable ECU's and C-16 but still the most powerfull 13B's and 20B's on the planet don't run intercoolers and use Methanol/Alcohol as their choice of fuel!

crispeed
87 TII Rx-7
9.204@150.47mph
2600lbs
un-tubbed

Maxthe7man

Who's that guy with the yellow first gen that runs alcohol, his car was in Turbo magazine a few years back? Max