MFilippello

iTrader: (2)

Ok, I am really frustrated right now so please understand. I just got my new motor and gt40r installed and fired it up for the first time this evening. Things went south right from the start. I have not had a chance to talk to Sean to get his input so I can not say what is wrong. I just need to get some ideas bounced back right now so any info would help.

The motor was just rebuilt due to coolant seal failure. It has new apex seals and side seals and all new o rings and so forth. All hard parts were reused. Rotors/housings/E shaft. The turbo is brand new gt40r. I hooked everything up as should be. Oil feed in and out, coolant lines in and out. I filled it up with castrol 10w-30 for breakin.

Prior to starting the car I pulled the EGI fuse and turned her over with the starter until I saw oil presure. I then rechecked the oil and filled accordingly. I put back the fuse and tried to start her. It took a few attempts but she finally kicked over. After getting her to around 1500 rpm she was smoking something fierce. I only have the downpipe and wastegate connected so there was smoke coming from under the car and out of the turbo. Just to fire her up this first time, I did not have the intake plumbing connected so the compressor side of the turbo is open. Smoke everywhre. At first I thought it was breakin lube but black oil starting flowing out of the down pipe. It was runny and smelled like gas. I am not talking a little but alot. We shut the car off to diagnose. It is either coming from the engine or the turbo. The car has fresh oil but this is way contaminated. After checking some things, I noticed someone put a vaccuum cap over my oil filler vent tube. I have one port capped but the other normally connects to the intake side of the turbo. I do not have my intake finished so I have not run the line. One of my friends must have seen it open and decided to do me a favor and cap it.

So here is where I stand. Could having no crankcase vent cause oil to gush out of the exhaust from the turbo or is my motor shot. There is so much oil in the exhaust that I have to dissasemble everything to clean it out. This will take a while as I have no time due to work. How sensitive are these turbos to crankcase pressure? Would clean oil coming from the turbo get this black from the exhaust gasses flowing out the turbine? The car has not been reved past 2000 rpm and has only been on for a couple of minutes. I am going to drain the oil in the pan and see what it looks like. I hope it is not full of gas. There is also some oil on the compressor side but not a lot. The weird thing is that it is also black and not clean like the oil on the dip stick.

I am totally stumped.

Mike

Snook

iTrader: (12)

Mike

First calm down nobody died.

I've emailed you a couple times about meeting up. I don't think you realize how similar our setups are and I was at home for 4 days just now we could have fixed your car and I could let you look at how I have everything on mine.

Any way to answer your question NO...having that vacuum line not hooked up to the intake will not cause your car to smoke like that. The intake is the only thing I don't have hooked up on my car yet. I just have a filter. There are 2 nipples I need to put on it the other being for the omp lines. So I've been premixing instead. I have experienced no smoke because of this line just hanging.

I also got my engine rebuilt by the same experienced and honest mechanic as you. I highly doubt it is a problem with the engine and I think it is your turbo. I have 1400 miles on my engine and it's running fantastic. A great way to tell is to take off your exhaust housing on the turbo and then make a plate for the front of it and bolt it on...then plumb the oil feed into the return line. I have one of these plates at home and a fitting for the feed to fit into the return .Your car is then NA so if it still smokes you have to blame the engine or a bad oil metering pump or something else. When I first cranked my engine it smoked a little but nothing too unusual as I'm still running rich.

If you have any questions you can call me (edited out as per user's request)
-Yanni

FC Alex

It sounds like your turbo is leaking oil into the turbine housing. You said the motor was just rebuilt so I don't think it would be your oil seals. I just hope someone didn't leave any debris in your TB or intake mani and your motor is f*cked. I suggest you go pay surgemonster a visit.

Best of luck,
Alex

AZ'sFastFD3S

That kinda sounds like what my car was doing when I turned my new engine over. All I did was run a bigger oil return line and it cleared up. I had a -6 line, so I ended up with a -10.

Turbo1

Most of the BB turbo's also run an oil restrictor on the inlet side. Make sure if you need one, you have one. Otherwise, you will be pumping in too much oil, it will leak around, burn smoke...etc..

pianoprodigy

Sorry to hear that Mike. I'm sure that you'll get it figured out, but you know who I would call...


Good Luck,

Alan

modrx7

iTrader: (1)

Yikes, this scares me about starting up my motor... Mike, I am running the same turbo as you(aspecs 40R kit) and was planning on starting my motor next weekend, assuming I could get a base map( matrix tables) to just get it started.

MFilippello

iTrader: (2)

The kit is as supplied by a-spec. The restrictor is built into the oil feed inlet on the turbo. The drain is the one he sent which is pretty big. I have uncapped the filler neck to let it breath more but it is still spitting out oil.

I am still waiting to get a hold of sean and see what he suggests. I need to talk to Jeff and see what he thinks. That is who built the moteor. He and Sean are great guys, and I am sure we will figure it out. I just hope it is something simple or stupid but I have bad feelings.

I will keep everybody posted.

Mike

R-magic

Check the oil return line. Make sure it's not clogged up. Check where the oil return line connects to the motor. U could have forgotten to take the tape off if there was one there. ( I did!) This causes the oil to be push back up into the turbo and out the exhaust. It also causes alot of white smoke coming out.

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

Chances of the turbo being bad right out the box are pretty much next to none not that it is impossible, just highly unlikely I haven't had a bad one yet from Garrett. Make sure the oil drain on the center section is pointing downward , make sure the oil drain is not kinked or blocked. The turbo oil inlet is restricted internally I would not recommend restricting it too much more, you do not want to see what they look like after oil starvation. Start with the oil drain then go to the motor then the turbo. I say that order because oil drain is most common area, I do not know your engine builder, but do know Garretts failure rate is less than 2% and chances are something is not on/installed right.

MFilippello

iTrader: (2)

I figured that garret had a very low failure rate. this is what concerns me. The drain seems fine I can easily blow through it. It is not kinked. It is the one you sent so I am confused.

Just so everyone knows, this is most likely something I have missed and not anybody's fault. I just need to get ideas as I am stuck trouble shooting this myself for the most part.

Sean I am going to try and reach you at the shop.

Mike

dznutzuk

iTrader: (1)

I had the same problem with my gt 35/40. Guess what, I accidently capped off both nipples off the oil filler neck instead of just putting a filter on one of them. This causes pressure to build up and shove it through the bearings of the turbo. This caused my car to smoke like crazy!!!!!!!! Then I noticed it but it took a while for it to clear out.

Carl Byck

Sean, what is the diameter of the inlet restrictor you use?

Turbo1

Please understand I wasnt wanting anyone to restrict anything further, but a BB turbo with 90psi of oil pressure isn't a happy snail.

MFilippello

iTrader: (2)

I started her up this morning after cleaning it up a bit. She seemed to be doing better. I reved up and down a little and no oil. I have one filler vent open and the cap on loose. I idled it across the street to get some gas and then back to the shop. after running a short while it stated smoking again and oil was dripping out of the down pipe. Not near as much as before but still enough to be seeping out around the vbands and onto the manifold. There was also a little in the compressor housing. I shut it off and let it cool down and went to see Jeff my engine builder. His shop is a few blocks away.

Later in the day he came by to help diagnose. we checked the plugs and they are not oily. We changed the oil and it was not that bad but we put fresh in. The only other thing I did was take an extra inch off the oil drain to give it more of a slant to the block. The way it was before, was a more gradual sweep with the bottom being more parrallel to the nipple on the block. It was not kinked. it now slopes the whole way down.

We fired it up and ran it for a while and of course did not blow oil. I think jeff scared it into working by coming over. He suggested just running it more to help seat things and see what it does. The general concenus is that it is the turbo that is leaking. I do not think the turbo is bad but as many have suggested, these things are very tempermental about backpressure. I think starting a new motor which probably had a fair amount of blow by and having both nipples on the oil filler capped led to a quick overpresurization of the crank case and caused the oil to come gushing out. As the motor has run more and sealed more and with the vent open and drain repositioned, all these things are helping.

I have heard of people having slight smoking problems after lifting throttle when in boost from this but not sitting at idel and oil running out the downpipe. This is what really had me alarmed.

I will keep everybody posted. I appreciate all the responses. I would imagine I will not be the only one with this issue if it truly is a case of sensitive BB turbo.

Yanni, I tried to call you this evening and left a voice mail. I do not check my IJ.net account as it is mostly spam. Try my mfilippello@verizon.net this will be better. I apologize for not getting with you sooner. I will try again tomorrow. Not because of all this but because I wanted to for a while now and have just been stuck with this and work.

Sean, I am going to order a catch can and air filter tomorrow as well. I know you have been real busy and I appreciate you checking on here to help.

Modrx7. give me a call if you have any questions. 813-868-1100. I hope it goes smooth for you. If you have the power fc I can give you some maps of mine. They were what I used with my RX6b. They probably are too lean for the gt40r but should help you get started

Mike

MFilippello

iTrader: (2)

also, this turbo is awesome. It spins up so easily. I can not wait to see how early boost will come up with this thing. When oiled and running at idel, it is spinning very quickly. After you shut off the car, you can walk around and watch it keep spinning. If only I could get it finished Then I could turn that frown into one of these

sub-zero

Use a oil catch tank off the oil filler neck. You are pressuring up and need to vent. My T-72 was smoking like hell and I used an oil restrictor but really just needed to vent the pressure build up. Without the catch tank You will have an oil mess. The oil will take some time to burn off.

MFilippello

iTrader: (2)

I am looking into using a catch can/separator that is sealed so I can still hook it up to the suction side of the turbo. This should always pull a vaccuum on the crank case that increases as boost increases. By utilizing the separator I will not get oil in the intake.

Anyone know of a nice product to do the job. It can not vent to atmosphere as then I loose the vaccuum. There is an interesting thread by max the 7 man that talks about using an electric air pump to evacute the block. High hp hot rods do this

mike

sub-zero

Sounds like more work then it is worth to me.

Snook

iTrader: (12)

I still don't really understand what the problem is. Your turbo is just super sensitive and needs a perfect size and flowing oil return line?

I know I'm never quick to blame Jeff though. A couple times I freaked out about my engine too and I always end up looking stupid. He's got a lot of experience and that sounds just like him to come out to your place to help out.

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

I do not use any after spending plenty of time with Garrett techs on the phone, they made it clear it's better to not have any as it is internally restricted the "seal" on the turbine end of the shaft is a piston ring, there is no positive oil seal, therefore the drain tube must be free of "goosenecks" or elbows due drain flow is not under pressure.* The drain tube must return the oil and vent back up the same tube, that is why the size needs to be so much larger than the inlet.* The compressor end seal may also be a piston ring seal or a carbon seal.* If it is a carbon seal, then its more of a positive seal than the piston ring, but we still have the piston ring on the turbine end.(*I have seen what happens to these with when there is not enough oil they literally will **** the bearing out of the drain.) Recommended oil pressure at inlet is 30.01psi minimum at peak torque speed and no lower than 9.9psi at idle. those specs are right out of the book.

Asleep

I have the same kit..actually I have the first kit.

I went from AN8 to AN10 drain and shortened the length and took care of the initial smoking problems. Sounds like the same solution.

What trim wheels do you guys have on your GT40Rs? It says on the compressor, on the backside I believe. I just found out I have the 56trim and was wondering if you guys had the same or the 52trim. They are both 88mm from what I understand.

Just took the turbo off after about 4K miles...lost the compressor wheel to injesting a peice of plastic and tearing up some blades in the process. Not fun. In getting a new wheel I am running into havoc getting someone to supply a wheel. I suggest highly you never run without a filter!

Regards,
Tony

sk8world

iTrader: (5)

I also had the oil burning problem when I installed mt gt40r kit. Once I unpluged the lines from the oil filer neck problem solved... But I have to say I never had much oil like you stated above. When I started the car it smoked a little but i think it was more the cermic coating and everything else seating. After that it was not very much at all until we got on the dyno and started making full pulls under boost. Then it was very bad!! Capped and vented the hoses and it was fine....

MFilippello

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=SurgeMonster]I still don't really understand what the problem is. Your turbo is just super sensitive and needs a perfect size and flowing oil return line?

The drain I have is already as large as I can go. Sean has spent many hours designing these kits and I am sure he has sized everything correctly. Other people have these kits and use this drain. I think it has more to do with length and shape at this point.

Asleep wrote:
I went from AN8 to AN10 drain and shortened the length and took care of the initial smoking problems. Sounds like the same solution.

Sean, what size drain comes with the kit I received? I am not at work and do not recall. Is it AN8 or is it AN10 now. The nippel at the block would have to get changed to run any larger than what I have. I do not think it would clear if it was larger.

I am not sure what the trim is. I will check tomorrow.


As for Jeff, we have a good relationship and he is always very helpful. I too trust his ability.

Also, I found a mini air compressor filter/separator with a catch bowl and drain to use on the filler vent to turbo suction line. It is an amflo and was $19.00 at home depot. I am going to try it out. I now have to put a nipple on the compressor housing for the omp injector line and the crankcase vent.

I will let everyone know how it works.

Mike

Lynn Bordes

I would put a .038" restrictor (#62 drill) in the oil pressure inlet port. It sounds like you are flooding the housing with too much oil. Also make sure the #10 return line fittings are full size and don't neckdown. 45 degree fittings flow better than 90s, you need a continuous downhill run. Is the gasket on the front housing fullsize?
Barry