Initial BorgWarner EFR 9180 T4 IWG impressions - Page 3 - RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum

Go Back  RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum > Tech and Performance > Single Turbo RX-7's
Reload this Page > Initial BorgWarner EFR 9180 T4 IWG impressions
Single Turbo RX-7's Questions about all aspects of single turbo setups.

Initial BorgWarner EFR 9180 T4 IWG impressions

Reply

 
 
Old 02-21-17, 04:21 PM
  #51
No phonebook but OG calls
iTrader: (30)
 
BurntOrangeT2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 985
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Turblown View Post
9180, how is your car coming??
Getting there brother.

Bout to drop motor and tranny in next weekend. Waiting on clutch. From there its just all supporting mods to get the car ready to run. I'll be calling you for adaptronic stuff, prolly advice on how to run the pro dash lol. It would be a dream come true to call you to tune it this fall


These results are definaitley making me wish it was ready to go 30psi or higher. Plenty of ethanol suppliers here and race gas. I'm sure I'll have like 4 diff tunes by the time its all said and done lol
BurntOrangeT2 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-17, 02:17 AM
  #52
\\TRASHTALK//
 
Zenki FC3S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: south phoenix
Posts: 1,430
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Damn my buddy offered me his 9180 for $1500

Want to hop on it for my 13bRE semi p port
Zenki FC3S is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-17, 07:10 AM
  #53
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
metalCORE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 346
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
...i'm wondering if there a any limitations to this turbo.

I planned to buy it because i like the fact it has so much stuff included, plus its a state of the art turbo (i hate buying stuff for the car that is already outdated).

Unfortunately, i heard about some limitations of the wastegate, and the bov, so you might to have to upgrade these sooner or later.

As i'm now going all in with my engine (bridgeport, 1/2" stud kit, perhaps 2piece eccentric shaft and intermediate bearing, dry sump) i'm wondering if the turbo, at least the IWG version, might be too small. The 20B guys have this problem, so it can be a factor for a 13B race engine as well, right?
metalCORE is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-17, 08:25 PM
  #54
Wabi-sabi
iTrader: (12)
 
Narfle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dagobah
Posts: 4,874
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
No.
Narfle is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-17, 12:27 PM
  #55
Brap Brap, Fap Fap
iTrader: (7)
 
Shainiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: East Haddam, CT
Posts: 1,376
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by metalCORE View Post
...i'm wondering if there a any limitations to this turbo.

I planned to buy it because i like the fact it has so much stuff included, plus its a state of the art turbo (i hate buying stuff for the car that is already outdated).

Unfortunately, i heard about some limitations of the wastegate, and the bov, so you might to have to upgrade these sooner or later.

As i'm now going all in with my engine (bridgeport, 1/2" stud kit, perhaps 2piece eccentric shaft and intermediate bearing, dry sump) i'm wondering if the turbo, at least the IWG version, might be too small. The 20B guys have this problem, so it can be a factor for a 13B race engine as well, right?
I would buy the 1.05A/R externally gated version. The main benefit of IWG is reduced noise. If you already have a full bridge engine, I'm guessing noise and manners aren't a priority for you. I struggled with boost creep with the 9180 IWG and it was pretty annoying. I would be hesitant if this is a dedicated track car. You wouldn't want to have boost creep if you're flogging the car on a cold track day and potentially damage the engine.
Shainiac is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-17, 04:20 AM
  #56
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
metalCORE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 346
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks! it will become a fun first car after it is completed, so yes, noise is not the biggest problem - i would like to keep it streetable, to drive it to the track (but it will be more used for quartermile than circuit), but i have to deal with problems like a big 3.5 or 4" downpipe - flow/performance vs. noise/space.

Boost creep would def. be an issue i wouldnd't like to deal with, i also heard the integrated BOV is not properly sized for very high hp numbers.

So i'm leaning toward the S300SXE, he should also have some adavantages compared to the EFR after what i read from Howard Coleman, the bif advantage of the EFR might be his bearing and the early spool, but i'm not sure if thats worth nearly $1000+ more for me... :/
metalCORE is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-17, 12:25 PM
  #57
Brap Brap, Fap Fap
iTrader: (7)
 
Shainiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: East Haddam, CT
Posts: 1,376
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
I would say that the EFR is definitely worth the price for the performance you get. It spools and responds faster similarly-sized turbo than any turbo I've seen or owned. I switched from a GT40R ball bearing to the larger EFR 9180IWG and there is absolutely no comparison. If you can afford it, I would go that route over the SXE.

Also, I ran as high as 31psi and never heard compressor surge on throttle lift that would make me think the BOV wasn't doing it's job. I recommend keeping it as it doesn't sound bad and cleans up the plumbing/saves weight.

I didn't have trouble making a 4" downpipe fit with the IWG, but I'm sure it contributed to my boost creep issues. With EWG, it wouldn't be an issue.
Shainiac is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-17, 04:17 PM
  #58
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
metalCORE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 346
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
@shainiac: What did you do to to avoid tht boost creep? As your sig says, you still driving the IWG version. Have you ported the wastegate or simply tried to re-tune the car better?

Would you say its necessary or better to go all 4" with the downpipe instead of 3.5"? I think more than 4" isn't possible in terms of space, and i have to keep the noise at an acceptable level, too.
metalCORE is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-17, 05:29 PM
  #59
Wabi-sabi
iTrader: (12)
 
Narfle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dagobah
Posts: 4,874
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by metalCORE View Post
@shainiac: What did you do to to avoid tht boost creep? As your sig says, you still driving the IWG version. Have you ported the wastegate or simply tried to re-tune the car better?
He put a restrictor in the exhaust.

Originally Posted by metalCORE View Post
Would you say its necessary or better to go all 4" with the downpipe instead of 3.5"? I think more than 4" isn't possible in terms of space, and i have to keep the noise at an acceptable level, too.
Better: Maybe, if you can control creep or run EWG where it's not an issue.
Necessary: No.
Narfle is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-17, 10:08 AM
  #60
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
metalCORE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 346
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
A restrictor? Curious. So you just manipulate the pressure drop, but that would only change the impact, not the cause, plus it will result in a loss of power and/or efficiency...
metalCORE is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-17, 03:41 PM
  #61
Adaptronic Distributor
RX7Club Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (12)
 
Turblown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 6,623
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
I want to make a few points;

A) generally it does not make much sense to run a 9180 at low boost pressures( under 18 psi it does not make any more power than a 8374 in my experience)
B) One can port the WG and reduce creep on the 8374+ size models that sometimes experience creep( I was able to get a car from 17 psi on cold days down to 11psi- 4th gear on the track).
C) 7670 units never ever creep
D) 90% of people with 8374 units can hold 12 psi, its only the larger 3.5/4" exhaust that really cause an issue.

Last edited by Turblown; 04-18-17 at 10:15 PM.
Turblown is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-17, 07:21 PM
  #62
Wabi-sabi
iTrader: (12)
 
Narfle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dagobah
Posts: 4,874
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by metalCORE View Post
A restrictor? Curious. So you just manipulate the pressure drop, but that would only change the impact, not the cause, plus it will result in a loss of power and/or efficiency...
It's a sub-optimal solution.

Originally Posted by Turblown View Post
I want to make a few points;

A) generally it does not make much sensor to run a 9180 at lower boost pressures( under 18 psi it does not make any more power than a 8374 in my experience)
B) One can port the WG and reduce creep on the 8374+ size models that can sometimes experience creep( I was able to get a car from 17 psi on cold days down to 11psi- 4th gear on the track).
C) 7670 units never ever creep
D) 90% of people with 8374 units can hold 12 psi, its only the larger 3.5/4" exhaust that really cause an issue.
Just curious, what power range would you project from 1bar with a 7670IWG on pump?
Narfle is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-17, 12:02 AM
  #63
Lives on the Forum
iTrader: (8)
 
BLUE TII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 6,224
Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Narfle

Just curious, what power range would you project from 1bar with a 7670IWG on pump?




Turblown

Dyno sheet attached is from our full cast 7670 kit on pump gas. Street ported engine by Lucky7Racing.

13.6 psi; 377rwhp/298rwhp torque
Attached Thumbnails
EFR 7670 IWG Dyno Results-cast-efr-7670-fd3s-rx7-pump-gas-dyno.jpg

BLUE TII is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-17, 12:56 PM
  #64
Brap Brap, Fap Fap
iTrader: (7)
 
Shainiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: East Haddam, CT
Posts: 1,376
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by metalCORE View Post
@shainiac: What did you do to to avoid tht boost creep? As your sig says, you still driving the IWG version. Have you ported the wastegate or simply tried to re-tune the car better?

Would you say its necessary or better to go all 4" with the downpipe instead of 3.5"? I think more than 4" isn't possible in terms of space, and i have to keep the noise at an acceptable level, too.
I put a 2.5" steel restrictor in the exhaust. It helped some, but it was still higher than I'd prefer in higher gears for pump gas. I never changed the downpipe, but maybe a 3" one would have made a bigger difference. The problem I had with the spacer was that I kept blowing exhaust gaskets. I didn't want to port the turbo because it is a royal pain in the *** to remove. I ended up making a custom wrench just to get the turbo-manifold bolts tight. And to do that I still had to remove the IWG actuator which is also a pain. I also didn't want to port it because I paid good money to have the thing ceramic coated and didn't want to mess that up either.

For those of us that don't have access to E85, it kind of sucks to not be able to go wide open throttle on pump gas without risking engine damage. I had a water injection system that I trusted so I wasn't too bent out of shape about it. But if I'd bought the turbo with expectations of driving on the street at 15psi on pump gas and turning it up on race gas at the track, I would have been upset. That said, i loved the turbo and it was leaps and bounds more responsive than any rotary making similar power I've been in.
Shainiac is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-17, 06:26 PM
  #65
Time or Money, Pick one
iTrader: (30)
 
silverTRD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Torrance, ca.
Posts: 2,561
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
What was the lowest boost you could run without the restrictor Shainiac?
silverTRD is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-17, 07:30 AM
  #66
Brap Brap, Fap Fap
iTrader: (7)
 
Shainiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: East Haddam, CT
Posts: 1,376
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by silverTRD View Post
What was the lowest boost you could run without the restrictor Shainiac?
It would make 17psi in 2nd gear and about 20 in 3rd gear with the 7psi or 14psi spring in the Turbosmart actuator.
Shainiac is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-17, 09:41 AM
  #67
Adaptronic Distributor
RX7Club Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (12)
 
Turblown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 6,623
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Almost 95 percent of ewg setups will boost creep on a big exhaust system with a high enough flowing turbo fyi.
​​​
Turblown is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-17, 05:05 PM
  #68
Rotary Enthusiast
 
SirLaughsALot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 830
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Turblown View Post
Almost 95 percent of ewg setups will boost creep on a big exhaust system with a high enough flowing turbo fyi.
​​​
Did you mean to say IWG here?

The 42mm internal wastegate is insufficient, which is why that's the first thing I'm changing on mine. The 0.92 A/R sounds pretty dogshit for our usage too, so that's gone.
SirLaughsALot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-17, 05:23 PM
  #69
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
metalCORE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 346
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
@Turblown: What options are available to avoid boost creep with an EFR 9180 IWG then...?
metalCORE is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-17, 11:21 PM
  #70
Rocket Appliances
iTrader: (11)
 
Skeese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 436
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot View Post
Did you mean to say IWG here?

The 42mm internal wastegate is insufficient, which is why that's the first thing I'm changing on mine. The 0.92 A/R sounds pretty dogshit for our usage too, so that's gone.
I wouldn't says the 42mm wastegate is insufficient or that the 0.92 IWG A/R is dogshit. Especially since I own that exact setup.

I'll very soon be able to comment on the exact limits of every aspect of the 0.92 IWG 9180 with the 42mm gate because unlike a lot of people...I'm going to run it for whatever and all it is worth, and I'm going to do it in its stock form + turbosmart actuator and a 4 port.

Skeese
Skeese is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-17, 11:53 PM
  #71
Rotary Enthusiast
 
SirLaughsALot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 830
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Skeese View Post
I wouldn't says the 42mm wastegate is insufficient or that the 0.92 IWG A/R is dogshit. Especially since I own that exact setup.

I'll very soon be able to comment on the exact limits of every aspect of the 0.92 IWG 9180 with the 42mm gate because unlike a lot of people...I'm going to run it for whatever and all it is worth, and I'm going to do it in its stock form + turbosmart actuator and a 4 port.

Skeese
You're Semi PP CLR built motor. You won't have the drawbacks I'm talking about.

I made a mistake and was referring to the 0.92 A/R from the 83/9174, in which that's NOT enough turbine housing for the application. On the 9180 though, that should be bitchin' (17% larger area!).
SirLaughsALot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-17, 11:27 PM
  #72
Adaptronic Distributor
RX7Club Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (12)
 
Turblown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 6,623
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot View Post
Did you mean to say IWG here?

The 42mm internal wastegate is insufficient, which is why that's the first thing I'm changing on mine. The 0.92 A/R sounds pretty dogshit for our usage too, so that's gone.
It is not a typo. Most ewg turbo manifolds do not have wg priority manifolds and will boost creep with large exhaust systems.
Turblown is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-17, 11:42 PM
  #73
Rotary Enthusiast
 
SirLaughsALot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 830
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Turblown View Post
It is not a typo. Most ewg turbo manifolds do not have wg priority manifolds and will boost creep with large exhaust systems.
I was thinking along the lines of many EFR IWG setups having surging issues. I wasn't aware of the majority of EFR EWG setups having creeping issues. Better than surge!

I guess you can treat boost creep like a state of mind.

Not everyone builds boost maps to be level pressure across the entire RPM range.

1) If you are total power output limited, you can run more boost at lower/midrange RPMs and taper off to seemingly have a HUGE powerband.
2) You can build a slowly increasing, linear pressure line in which peak boost is at peak RPM.
Centrifugal Superchargers do this by design. It makes the car easier to drive when the powerband is linear in reference to RPM.
3) If you were to build a Highway Racer (bad idea?), you could set the car up to build almost zero boost all around town to be reliable, boring, and get great gas mileage, then drop a gear and load it up to ramp up pressure only when driven HARD.

It's all application based, driver preference.
SirLaughsALot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-17, 08:42 AM
  #74
Brap Brap, Fap Fap
iTrader: (7)
 
Shainiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: East Haddam, CT
Posts: 1,376
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Surge is just a function of too much boost too early. You're literally out of the park on the left side of the compressor map. The compressor cannot pump that little flow at whatever specific boost pressure. My 9180 would surge down low if I had boost control duty cycle too high in the lower RPMs. This was really only an issue in 3,4,5th gears because there wasn't enough load in 1/2 to spool the turbo early enough. Surge only gets better with bigger porting as the engine flows more at just about every given RPM and boost increment. The EWG may surge a bit less just because it has a larger A/R and longer exhaust runners, but that's about it.

Having linear boost isn't something I'd ever want. You're better off having boost come on as early as possible and use your right foot to control power, fuel mileage, ect. Run as much boost as you have octane for and use the throttle for everything else.
Shainiac is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-17, 11:25 AM
  #75
Rotary Enthusiast
 
SirLaughsALot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 830
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Shainiac View Post
Surge is just a function of too much boost too early. You're literally out of the park on the left side of the compressor map. The compressor cannot pump that little flow at whatever specific boost pressure. My 9180 would surge down low if I had boost control duty cycle too high in the lower RPMs. This was really only an issue in 3,4,5th gears because there wasn't enough load in 1/2 to spool the turbo early enough. Surge only gets better with bigger porting as the engine flows more at just about every given RPM and boost increment. The EWG may surge a bit less just because it has a larger A/R and longer exhaust runners, but that's about it.

Having linear boost isn't something I'd ever want. You're better off having boost come on as early as possible and use your right foot to control power, fuel mileage, ect. Run as much boost as you have octane for and use the throttle for everything else.
Right, exactly.

I'm not sure about you, but for designing a track car you commonly get asked for NA vs. Supercharger vs. Turbocharger on anything but a rotary. Horsepower of the NA/Supercharger (Roots/Screw Style) are significantly less than the output of the Turbocharged engine, yet the laptimes are similar. It's not due to torque output... It's due to driver comfort and being repeatable. That's why a Linear Boost Curve on a Turbocharged Car makes perfect sense. You dial it in to make more power with more RPM. This makes it more drivable vs. a blowing the doors off aggressiveness in the low/midrange. There's nothing wrong with leaving power on the table when you've got fucktons of it to spare. That's what OEMs call Reliability and Engineers call Factor of Safety.
SirLaughsALot is offline  
Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Turblown
Vendor Classifieds
5
12-18-15 10:14 PM
Turblown
Single Turbo RX-7's
1
09-30-15 05:58 PM
baix2
Power FC Forum
1
09-28-15 09:40 AM
Devon Murray
Introduce yourself
2
09-25-15 09:41 AM


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:45 PM.


All content Copyright 2007 by Internet Brands, Inc.